Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[bert]

I just don't see the argument that you can't break up Tkachuk and Stu,

Just one year earlier, Tkachuk-Norris-Batherson was a menace to opposing teams. Nobody wanted to break that up.

To me, both Tkachuk and Stu are good enough to carry their own lines.

Stutzle just had the best d +3 season other than McDavid since Stamkos. He's a player teams continually target and Tkachuk is a a deterent and played with him for that historic season. Yet you don't see an argument? I disagree.

My argument in regards to the other lines is that I think Batherson and Norris can be effective I just want a different type of player with them other than Debrincat. Formenton would have been good. A guy like killorn bunting bertuzzi barbashev etc.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Stutzle just had the best d +3 season other than McDavid since Stamkos. He's a player teams continually target and Tkachuk is a a deterent and played with him for that historic season. Yet you don't see an argument? I disagree.

players don't need body guards.

where is Kucherov's deterrent? Kane's deterrent? Mackinnon's deterrent? Aho's deterrent?

I mean we can go down the last for almost every productive star in the league. none of them need a deterrent to be successful.

Stutzle doesn't need a deterrent either. I mean it's nice, but necessary? clearly not. Stutzle would have put up the same season or better with many other less deterrent player than Brady.

 

[bert]

players don't need body guards.

where is Kucherov's deterrent? Kane's deterrent? Mackinnon's deterrent? Aho's deterrent?

I mean we can go down the last for almost every productive star in the league. none of them need a deterrent to be successful.

Stutzle doesn't need a deterrent either. I mean it's nice, but necessary? clearly not. Stutzle would have put up the same season or better with many other less deterrent player than Brady.

Tkachuk is a top 10 winger in hockey. But he'd do just as well with many other players on better. Yet it's the best season in 11 years outside of a top 5 player ever. Just another amazingly terrible take. Please stop hijacking good discussions. We get it you don't understand physical hockey. I don't care for your opinion it's proven to be worthless.

 

[Loach]

Tkachuk, Stu, Norris, Giroux, Batherson, DeBrincat (for now), that's 6 very good forwards

So Pinto and Greig are either forwards on this team or prospects, they certainly aren't nothing. both have top 6 potential, but are almost certainly quality middle 6 guys going forward. that makes 8 of your 12 lineup spots, or more accurately of your top 9 spots. All with the exception of Giroux are 26 or under.

4 forward spots to fill, we've got Kastelic who I think is a fine 4th line center with some upside if he can stay healthy.

For better or worse, Joseph is here, and while overpaid, he's certainly a capable bottom 6 forward, leaving two more spots up front.

The sky isn't falling,

Tkachuk-Norris-Batherson
DeBrincat-Stutzle-Giroux
Greig-Pinto-Joseph
xxx-Kastelic-xxx

Kelly, Sokolov

Chabot-Zub
Sanderson-Chychrun
Brannstrom-Hamonic(?)

JBD, Kleven(callup)

Forsberg
Sogaard


Now, we can compare that to the roster of players that played 25+ games last year for us and finished 6 pts out

Tkachuk-Stutzle-Giroux
DeBrincat-Pinto-Batherson
Brassard-Gambrell-Joseph
Motte-Kastelic-Watson
Kelly

Chabot-Zub
Sanderson-Hamonic
Brannstrom-Holden

Zaitsev

Talbot
Forsberg

Seems like we have a much more promising roster,

I see a bubble team. Hoping to get in and hope for the best. What was the point of it all just to end up back at the start?. A few good players on a flawed roster. He built the exact same team that he sold off. I hope you are right. Thanks for trying to cheer me up. Lol.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Tkachuk is a top 10 winger in hockey. But he'd do just as well with many other players on better. Yet it's the best season in 11 years outside of a top 5 player ever. Just another amazingly terrible take. Please stop hijacking good discussions. We get it you don't understand physical hockey. I don't care for your opinion it's proven to be worthless.

Stutzle had a great season but the best in 11 seasons has a big part due it being the highest scoring season in 30 years.

And Stutzle is perhaps the 2nd most talented player in franchise history. he would put up 90 points with Brady, he would put up 90 points with a lot of players.

stop pretending he will drop down to being a 60-70 point player because he won't have Brady's protection. asinine.

 

[2XPRO31]

I see a bubble team. Hoping to get in and hope for the best. What was the point of it all just to end up back at the start?. A few good players on a flawed roster. He built the exact same team that he sold off. I hope you are right. Thanks for trying to cheer me up. Lol.

It's the team last year that missed the playoffs by 6 points but you're actually getting Norris back, replacing Zaitsev with Chychrun and probably getting more growth out of Sanderson, Pinto Kasty who were all rookies.

Its also the start of the off season so there will be moves made. Hopefully we arent reaching for our 6th string goalie at the most crucial part of the season

 

[Micklebot]

Stutzle just had the best d +3 season other than McDavid since Stamkos. He's a player teams continually target and Tkachuk is a a deterent and played with him for that historic season. Yet you don't see an argument? I disagree.

What I'm saying is Stutzle is good enough not to need specifically Tkachuk out there with him. If you want to suggest that Stu's historic season is because of Tkachuk, fine, but imo that was coming either way. Stutzle was already showing a lot of what he did this year during the second half of last year when he barely played with Tkachuk, he was pretty much a pt per game with Formenton and Brown/Gaudette for half a season.

the deterrence of playing on the same line as Tkachuk imo is overblown, the opposition knows next shift he's out there, it's not like if he's off the line he's off the team, and it's not like Stu is some fragile princess we need to bubble wrap.

I think we've got a couple studs who can both fly on their own. If you disagree, that's fine, playing them together is a great option to have in your back pocket if things don't work apart.

 

[bert]

What I'm saying is Stutzle is good enough not to need specifically Tkachuk out there with him. If you want to suggest that Stu's historic season is because of Tkachuk, fine, but imo that was coming either way. Stutzle was already showing a lot of what he did this year during the second half of last year when he barely played with Tkachuk, he was pretty much a pt per game with Formenton and Brown/Gaudette for half a season.

the deterrence of playing on the same line as Tkachuk imo is overblown, the opposition knows next shift he's out there, it's not like if he's off the line he's off the team, and it's not like Stu is some fragile princess we need to bubble wrap.

I think we've got a couple studs who can both fly on their own. If you disagree, that's fine, playing them together is a great option to have in your back pocket if things don't work apart.

I dont dissagree with that and I dont think the only reason Stutzle was great was Tkachuk but he sure did play well with him. He had a historical season better than players like Matthews, Hughes, Kucherov etc etc etc. I personally dont like messing with things that work that well. Players play bigger when they know they have someone looking out for them. Similar how teams can play better in front of a good goalie knowing they can make a mistake. Brady does create alot of room out there. I dont think either of those points are debatable.

I think looking at the way Florida and Vegas built their teams and lineups is how you have sustained success.

Certain styles of play compliment one another. On each line Vegas had atleast one 'worker' that was great on puck retrieval, physicality and two way play. Thats how you role teams and wear them out. Its what I would like Ottawa to emulate. They are missing motor and grit to make room for the skill guys on the 2nd line.

Stutzle had a great season but the best in 11 seasons has a big part due it being the highest scoring season in 30 years.

And Stutzle is perhaps the 2nd most talented player in franchise history. he would put up 90 points with Brady, he would put up 90 points with a lot of players.

stop pretending he will drop down to being a 60-70 point player because he won't have Brady's protection. asinine.

This is why I dont want you to respond to any of my posts. You suggest I say something as fact that I never did then present it as your argument. Grow up, be better. This is a waste of everyones time.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

Stutzle had a great season but the best in 11 seasons has a big part due it being the highest scoring season in 30 years.

And Stutzle is perhaps the 2nd most talented player in franchise history. he would put up 90 points with Brady, he would put up 90 points with a lot of players.

stop pretending he will drop down to being a 60-70 point player because he won't have Brady's protection. asinine.

Brady was excellent offensively though last season. I agree that a tough player isn't NECESSARY with a star C like Stützle but Tkachuk brings a lot more to the table then just protection. Tkachuk's net drive, work below the hashmarks and the chaos he creates by parking himself in front all played a role in helping Stü produce. Now, Brady's piss poor defensive game last year probably loaded more responsibility onto a 20 year old Cs shoulders than I would have liked, but I put that down to coaching more than linemates.

I'm totally fine with separating the two players. I think Tim is competitive and doesn't need protection on his line, but to suggest that Tkachuk played no role in his success last year is not realistic.

 

[bert]

Brady was excellent offensively though last season. I agree that a tough player isn't NECESSARY with a star C like Stützle but Tkachuk brings a lot more to the table then just protection. Tkachuk's net drive, work below the hashmarks and the chaos he creates by parking himself in front all played a role in helping Stü produce. Now, Brady's piss poor defensive game last year probably loaded more responsibility onto a 20 year old Cs shoulders than I would have liked, but I put that down to coaching more than linemates.

I'm totally fine with separating the two players. I think Tim is competitive and doesn't need protection on his line, but to suggest that Tkachuk played no role in his success last year is not realistic.

You are wasting your breath he has no ability to identify any of these skills.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

This is why I dont want you to respond to any of my posts. You suggest I say something as fact that I never did then present it as your argument. Grow up, be better. This is a waste of everyones time.

you're clearly implying that a large part of Stutzle's season is because of Brady's "protection and deterrence" something separate from Bradys' offensive skill and contribution. That is the part i think that is BS.

Every single star player in the league is able to produce without a deterrence.

Brady was excellent offensively though last season. I agree that a tough player isn't NECESSARY with a star C like Stützle but Tkachuk brings a lot more to the table then just protection. Tkachuk's net drive, work below the hashmarks and the chaos he creates by parking himself in front all played a role in helping Stü produce. Now, Brady's piss poor defensive game last year probably loaded more responsibility onto a 20 year old Cs shoulders than I would have liked, but I put that down to coaching more than linemates.

I'm totally fine with separating the two players. I think Tim is competitive and doesn't need protection on his line, but to suggest that Tkachuk played no role in his success last year is not realistic.

i agree that Brady's offensive skill helped Stutzle, Brady is a good player to play with for any offensively skilled player who likes having the puck.

but deterrence being a part of it? where do you see that in the league? what other star needs protection to be successful? this isn't the 80's. and i mean players and teams were f***ing with Stutzle all season even with Brady right there.

But Stutzle will produce with or without Brady, with or without protection. The argument that deterrence plays a role is bs.

In fact if you think about it Stutzle gets dragged into more contact post whistle because Brady is a magnet for post whistle activity and scrums which inevitably will involve Stutzle.

 

[bert]

you're clearly implying that a large part of Stutzle's season is because of Brady's "protection and deterrence" something separate from Bradys' offensive skill and contribution. That is the part i think that is BS.

Every single star player in the league is able to produce without a deterrence.



i agree that Brady's offensive skill helped Stutzle, Brady is a good player to play with for any offensively skilled player who likes having the puck.

but deterrence being a part of it? where do you see that in the league? what other star needs protection to be successful? this isn't the 80's. and i mean players and teams were f***ing with Stutzle all season even with Brady right there.

But Stutzle will produce with or without Brady, with or without protection. The argument that deterrence plays a role is bs.

In fact if you think about it Stutzle gets dragged into more contact post whistle because Brady is a magnet for post whistle activity and scrums which inevitably will involve Stutzle.

JUST STOP. You said I said he was a 60 or 70 point player without him which I never did its disingenuous and the behavior of a child.

Knowing you dont have to worry about a cheap shot allows players to play more free. Its a fact if you played hockey you would understand but you didnt. Having a player like Brady makes alot of room. What you are saying is that you dont think Tkachuk would help other players either your bias is so prevalent it doesnt allow you to contribute anything of substance.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

you're clearly implying that a large part of Stutzle's season is because of Brady's "protection and deterrence" something separate from Bradys' offensive skill and contribution. That is the part i think that is BS.

Every single star player in the league is able to produce without a deterrence.



i agree that Brady's offensive skill helped Stutzle, Brady is a good player to play with for any offensively skilled player who likes having the puck.

but deterrence being a part of it? where do you see that in the league? what other star needs protection to be successful? this isn't the 80's. and i mean players and teams were f***ing with Stutzle all season even with Brady right there.

But Stutzle will produce with or without Brady, with or without protection. The argument that deterrence plays a role is bs.

In fact if you think about it Stutzle gets dragged into more contact post whistle because Brady is a magnet for post whistle activity and scrums which inevitably will involve Stutzle.

I agree that deterrents generally don't play with stars anymore. Having a tough player who can play well offensively is a luxury, not a necessity. But we have that luxury and Brady's physical play is absolutely beneficial to Stü's game.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

JUST STOP. You said I said he was a 60 or 70 point player without him which I never did its disingenuous and the behavior of a child.

Knowing you dont have to worry about a cheap shot allows players to play more free. Its a fact if you played hockey you would understand but you didnt. Having a player like Brady makes alot of room. What you are saying is that you dont think Tkachuk would help other players either your bias is so prevalent it doesnt allow you to contribute anything of substance.

its not the 80's man. what star players are being routinely cheap shotted and worrying about cheap shots? none.

 

[Golden_Jet]

you're clearly implying that a large part of Stutzle's season is because of Brady's "protection and deterrence" something separate from Bradys' offensive skill and contribution. That is the part i think that is BS.

Every single star player in the league is able to produce without a deterrence.



i agree that Brady's offensive skill helped Stutzle, Brady is a good player to play with for any offensively skilled player who likes having the puck.

but deterrence being a part of it? where do you see that in the league? what other star needs protection to be successful? this isn't the 80's. and i mean players and teams were f***ing with Stutzle all season even with Brady right there.

But Stutzle will produce with or without Brady, with or without protection. The argument that deterrence plays a role is bs.

In fact if you think about it Stutzle gets dragged into more contact post whistle because Brady is a magnet for post whistle activity and scrums which inevitably will involve Stutzle.

Evander Kane and Conner McDavid hmmmm

 

[Alf Silfversson]

Evander Kane and Conner McDavid hmmmm

Yeah. I guess so. I haven't checked the stats much but I seem to remember Connor McDavid being pretty damn good before Evander Kane joined the Oilers. Maybe I'm misremembering.

 

[Beech]

Evander Kane and Conner McDavid hmmmm

Kane has only played 1/2 of all games the last 2 seasons.

McDavid had a 105 point in 56 game season in 2020/2021 before Kane's' arrival.

His (McDavid's) productivity has been high and climbed relative to the league scoring escalating as well. That productivity preceded Kane's arrival.

Kane is an underrated player. He has played in the past, at a clip that would mean 70 plus point seasons (If he played 80-82)..

I believe that the Kane/McDavid.... bodyguard/star is not 100% accurate.

@Agent Zub may be very accurate on this. The last 30 years have shown that there is far less to the argument of an enforcer to protect the star as may once have been.

 

[Micklebot]

Yeah. I guess so. I haven't checked the stats much but I seem to remember Connor McDavid being pretty damn good before Evander Kane joined the Oilers. Maybe I'm misremembering.

They also didn't play much together this year, at least not in the reg season, though part of that is because Kane only played half the season.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Evander Kane and Conner McDavid hmmmm

McDavid dominated before Kane, with Kane, and he will after Kane.

They also switch it up a lot. They don't have Kane glued to McDavid because he needs constant deterrence to be successful. In fact McDavid seems to have been more succesful with Hyman and Nugent Hopkins. You think they are deterrence?

 

[Golden_Jet]

McDavid dominated before Kane, with Kane, and he will after Kane.

They also switch it up a lot. They don't have Kane glued to McDavid because he needs constant deterrence to be successful. In fact McDavid seems to have been more succesful with Hyman and Nugent Hopkins. You think they are deterrence?

Yet McDavid just had his best season

 

[bert]

Do posters here believe that physical play does or does not make room on the ice for skill plays/players? Physical play is not only body checks, its puck retrieval, net drive, forchecking and finishing checks. When a defenseman continually gets punished for going back to get pucks they tend to turn pucks over or do posters not believe in that either? Do posters here think that Vegas and Florida were an anomaly or do you subscribe to the concept that playing a heavy physical game works better in tight checking games? It appears that the arguments are being made that these types of traits are not important or conducive to success.

I personally feel these are important aspects of the game to go along with skill, speed etc. Eichel and Marchessault specifically talked about it this year in the playoffs and what Barbashev added to their line in multiple articles and on pod casts do you think they were being disingenuous?

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Yet McDavid just had his best season

yes while not even playing with Kane much lol.

 

[Micklebot]

Yet McDavid just had his best season

How much of that do you attribute to the 269 5v5 mins they played on the same line?

 

[Golden_Jet]

yes while not even playing with Kane much lol.

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Do posters here believe that physical play does or does not make room on the ice for skill plays/players? Physical play is not only body checks, its puck retrieval, net drive, forchecking and finishing checks. When a defenseman continually gets punished for going back to get pucks they tend to turn pucks over or do posters not believe in that either? Do posters here think that Vegas and Florida were an anomaly or do you subscribe to the concept that playing a heavy physical game works better in tight checking games? It appears that the arguments are being made that these types of traits are not important or conducive to success.

I personally feel these are important aspects of the game to go along with skill, speed etc. Eichel and Marchessault specifically talked about it this year in the playoffs and what Barbashev added to their line in multiple articles and on pod casts do you think they were being disingenuous?

It’s kind of funny actually, all the doubling down, and they need to be broken up lol.

 

[Que]

Kane has only played 1/2 of all games the last 2 seasons.

McDavid had a 105 point in 56 game season in 2020/2021 before Kane's' arrival.

His (McDavid's) productivity has been high and climbed relative to the league scoring escalating as well. That productivity preceded Kane's arrival.

Kane is an underrated player. He has played in the past, at a clip that would mean 70 plus point seasons (If he played 80-82)..

I believe that the Kane/McDavid.... bodyguard/star is not 100% accurate.

@Agent Zub may be very accurate on this. The last 30 years have shown that there is far less to the argument of an enforcer to protect the star as may once have been.

Kaprizov got absolutely bullied during the playoffs this year. Suter probably cracked a rib in his back he cross checked him so hard.

Policing the game still exists, it just looks different that what it did 30 years ago. The liberties taken are all little battles along the boards or in front of the net. Cheap shots that refs miss, slashes, cross-checks, hits that didn’t really need to be made, etc.

Look at our boy Mark Stone in the playoffs. Was hit repeatedly when he didn’t need to be as opponents were literally trying to break his back. Vegas’ big boys would have to routinely give extra shots in scrums to try to deter this.

Frig I want Kolesar.