Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Que]

I’ve said before, Dorion is his own worst enemy. He’s a fantastic evaluator of minor talent, great at contract negotiations (when players will negotiate), presumably bad at pro scouting, is incredibly stubborn and will over play his hand to the organization’s detriment.

In my heart I know he’s done but I do hope he somehow George Costanza’s his way into a promotion with less responsibilities.

I just can’t tell how much better or worse we’d be without him. We’d definitely have more prospects and draft picks - but would we be selecting the right ones? I suppose the old bird in the hand bit…

I will say this last 24 hours has been a shake your head at everything the guy says day. Don’t say you had to ‘get rid’ of Zaitsev. Don’t say you think DeBrincat will score 50 before arbitration. Don’t say this is a weak draft and a good time not to have a pick. It’s never a good time to not have a pick. Don’t openly say your going to pursue Korpisalo as your top priority. Don’t imply your not getting traction on a DeBrincat trade by saying ‘selling for penny’s on the dollar’ or shit talk Jeff to Bruce.

I am certain Pierre is even more frustrated and disappointed than us but Jesus dude you had time to prepare for this.

 

[KingAlfie11]

Personally I don't care what Dorion says to the media, I think for the most part he has done a good job with the rebuild, that Karlsson trade was a masterpiece, he was able to signed Brady, Timmy and Norris for long term with good term. Did he made some mistakes yes just like any other gm, but all in all I think he pretty good the foundation is there for the Sens to be a playoffs team and a contender for years to come and that's because of the work Dorion did.

 

[Tuna99]

Personally I don't care what Dorion says to the media, I think for the most part he has done a good job with the rebuild, that Karlsson trade was a masterpiece, he was able to signed Brady, Timmy and Norris for long term with good term. Did he made some mistakes yes just like any other gm, but all in all I think he pretty good the foundation is there for the Sens to be a playoffs team and a contender for years to come and that's because of the work Dorion did.

Don’t you feel they are a year behind? And Dorion said himself when he was hired as GM you can’t win without goaltending and his goalie evaluations suck.

If Dorion got what was supposed to be Matt Murray or even Talbot right he and his team would be in completely different territory. Instead of wondering what needs to be done we’d be a playoff team and this young group would have a series of playoff hockey under their belt going into next season

 

[Loach]

It's broken. The new bosses will have to retool the rebuild. No picks, no prospects, no depth, no cap space. Discouraging.

 

[Big Muddy]

Personally I don't care what Dorion says to the media, I think for the most part he has done a good job with the rebuild, that Karlsson trade was a masterpiece, he was able to signed Brady, Timmy and Norris for long term with good term. Did he made some mistakes yes just like any other gm, but all in all I think he pretty good the foundation is there for the Sens to be a playoffs team and a contender for years to come and that's because of the work Dorion did.

Masterpiece or serendipity? To believe it was a masterpiece, Dorion would have to known that the Sharks were going to have a bad year. I'd say he made some good moves, and some bad.

 

[Micklebot]

It's broken. The new bosses will have to retool the rebuild. No picks, no prospects, no depth, no cap space. Discouraging.

Seems a bit dramatic...

We have all the core pieces you need, it's just about filling in the rest. Cap space opens up going forward

#1 Center: Stu
Elite Power forward: Tkachuk
#2 Center: Norris
#4/5 High end wingers: Batherson, Giroux

Third line: Pinto, Greig, maybe Formenton and if not Joseph? Short term it's a bit green, but looks very promising going forward.

#1 D: Sanderson
#2/3 D: Chychabot
#4 Defensive D: Zub

In terms of skaters, there isn't a lot missing, we need a goalie, that's true, but otherwise things look pretty positive, even if we had a deeper pool, there's not a lot of spots that need filling, certainly not anything critical.

All that is without DeBrincat, so with zero return for him other than cap space, we've got 5 of 6 top 6 spots locked up, 2/3rds of our 3rd line, maybe all of it. a quality top 4 D group, with Kleven and Brannstrom as good options to fill out the third pair medium term,

Could things be better, of course, but the sky isn't falling by any stretch.

 

[bert]

Seems a bit dramatic...

We have all the core pieces you need, it's just about filling in the rest. Cap space opens up going forward

#1 Center: Stu
Elite Power forward: Tkachuk
#2 Center: Norris
#4/5 High end wingers: Batherson, Giroux

Third line: Pinto, Greig, maybe Formenton and if not Joseph? Short term it's a bit green, but looks very promising going forward.

#1 D: Sanderson
#2/3 D: Chychabot
#4 Defensive D: Zub

In terms of skaters, there isn't a lot missing, we need a goalie, that's true, but otherwise things look pretty positive, even if we had a deeper pool, there's not a lot of spots that need filling, certainly not anything critical.

All that is without DeBrincat, so with zero return for him other than cap space, we've got 5 of 6 top 6 spots locked up, 2/3rds of our 3rd line, maybe all of it. a quality top 4 D group, with Kleven and Brannstrom as good options to fill out the third pair medium term,

Could things be better, of course, but the sky isn't falling by any stretch.

The top 6 make up does not compliment one another at all. If the goal is to compete for a playoff spot sure the sky isn't falling. If the goal is to win a cup I'd argue otherwise. They have nothing coming, that should not be the cause with a scorched earth rebuild and 6 years or no playoffs. The make up looks like a team that had to spend futures to make a SC push. There should be an abundance of assets that can replace or provide depth or be used to aquire it. This team has none.

While the top end is strong and promising the rest leaves so much to be desired. I will say this, the flat cap has opened up some options to get quality depth at a bargain bin price. However based on this teams pro scouting I have very little faith they can find the right depth pieces. There are opportunities to play in meaningful spots on this team so maybe someone trying to rejuvenate their career may come in on a team friendly deal.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

I may be the biggest Dorion hater there is out there, but I'm okay with how he's playing this so far.

DeBrincat and his camp are probably feeling the lack of interest in him, which (IMO) means they will probably be more inclined to agree to an extension up front... and maybe with a longer list of US based teams than he's currently given.

And, the market for him might get a little better after July 1st when the teams who strike out in the UFA market become a little more desperate.

If that leads to a package of a good middle six forward, and a good prospect from the 2021 draft, then I think we've done okay.

 

[Micklebot]

The top 6 make up does not compliment one another at all. If the goal is to compete for a playoff spot sure the sky isn't falling. If the goal is to win a cup I'd argue otherwise. They have nothing coming, that should not be the cause with a scorched earth rebuild and 6 years or no playoffs. The make up looks like a team that had to spend futures to make a SC push. There should be an abundance of assets that can replace or provide depth or be used to aquire it. This team has none.

Idk, I see a pretty damn good mix in Stutzle, Tkachuk, Batherson Norris and Giroux. What exactly about that group do you feel is not complementary?

Tkachuk, Norris and Batherson were one of the best lines in the 2021-22 season,

Stu, Giroux and Tkachuk were one of the top lines in 2022-23

Surely we can find a way to build two very strong lines out of those 5 pieces.

While the top end is strong and promising the rest leaves so much to be desired. I will say this, the flat cap has opened up some options to get quality depth at a bargain bin price. However based on this teams pro scouting I have very little faith they can find the right depth pieces. There are opportunities to play in meaningful spots on this team so maybe someone trying to rejuvenate their career may come in on a team friendly deal.

Perhaps I'm higher on Greig and Pinto than you. I see both as guys that could be mainstays on a 2nd line in a couple years that will cut their teeth on our 3rd line next year. A bit green for sure though. After that, filling in a 4th line isn't really as hard as this team has made it out to be over the years.

And again, that lineup is with zero return from DeBrincat, both in terms of assets and in terms of utilization of the cap space he affords us.

 

[Philadelphia Collins]

My theory is Pierre got (rightfully) dunked on so hard for the Boucher pick in 2021 he’s decided to never pick in the top-60 again.

Him sniffing around Korpisalo as a UFA is scary too, his track record of acquiring goalies is wretched. Not sure why Andlauer kept him around

 

[bert]

Idk, I see a pretty damn good mix in Stutzle, Tkachuk, Batherson Norris and Giroux. What exactly about that group do you feel is not complementary?

Tkachuk, Norris and Batherson were one of the best lines in the 2021-22 season,

Stu, Giroux and Tkachuk were one of the top lines in 2022-23

Surely we can find a way to build two very strong lines out of those 5 pieces.




Perhaps I'm higher on Greig and Pinto than you. I see both as guys that could be mainstays on a 2nd line in a couple years that will cut their teeth on our 3rd line next year. A bit green for sure though. After that, filling in a 4th line isn't really as hard as this team has made it out to be over the years.

And again, that lineup is with zero return from DeBrincat, both in terms of assets and in terms of utilization of the cap space he affords us.

Debrincat, Giroux and Batherson are all very similar players stylistically and what they bring to a line That's what I meant. I think if Debrincat is replaced with a player that is terrific at net drive, puck retrieval and forchecking the top 6 will be much more balanced. Not having Norris and Formenton did really hurt the forward group as they can both provide that. Meanwhile Pinto was inserted who is also a righty with a similar game as the three others I mentioned. I guess the jury is still out I just want more sand paper to make room for the skill. They certainly do have skill.

Thanks for the response.

 

[Comely]

My theory is Pierre got (rightfully) dunked on so hard for the Boucher pick in 2021 he’s decided to never pick in the top-60 again.

Him sniffing around Korpisalo as a UFA is scary too, his track record of acquiring goalies is wretched. Not sure why Andlauer kept him around

Andlauer cant fire him until he officially has team control

 

[BondraTime]

My theory is Pierre got (rightfully) dunked on so hard for the Boucher pick in 2021 he’s decided to never pick in the top-60 again.

Him sniffing around Korpisalo as a UFA is scary too, his track record of acquiring goalies is wretched. Not sure why Andlauer kept him around

Andlauer literally isn't allowed to do anything until the papers are signed.

It's extremely unfortunate that a deadman walking, and everyone knows it, is running the show for the offseason, just biding time until Staios is brought in.

 

[Loach]

The top 6 make up does not compliment one another at all. If the goal is to compete for a playoff spot sure the sky isn't falling. If the goal is to win a cup I'd argue otherwise. They have nothing coming, that should not be the cause with a scorched earth rebuild and 6 years or no playoffs. The make up looks like a team that had to spend futures to make a SC push. There should be an abundance of assets that can replace or provide depth or be used to aquire it. This team has none.

While the top end is strong and promising the rest leaves so much to be desired. I will say this, the flat cap has opened up some options to get quality depth at a bargain bin price. However based on this teams pro scouting I have very little faith they can find the right depth pieces. There are opportunities to play in meaningful spots on this team so maybe someone trying to rejuvenate their career may come in on a team friendly deal.

We have 6 forwards, 3 top defence that play the same side, a backup goalie...no prospects, picks or cap. We sold Everything! Finished bottom of the league for 6 years. It's madness to hope for a hasbeen to play im the bottom 6. We should have elc guys that we drafted to do that...

 

[JD1]

We have 6 forwards, 3 top defence that play the same side, a backup goalie...no prospects, picks or cap. We sold Everything! Finished bottom of the league for 6 years. It's madness to hope for a hasbeen to play im the bottom 6. We should have elc guys that we drafted to do that...

ELC guys to do that is a bit of a myth.

ELC guys are far more typically high end talent. Top 6, top 4, higher end draft picks. Skilled players

Bottom 6 guys are typically guys that played top 6, aged out, and reinvented themselves in new roles to stay in the league. Career bottom 6 guys I think tend to spend a lot of time developing in the AHL and usually can't hang full time in the NHL until they are physically fully developed.

They say it's a copy cat league. Do you know how many ELC guys played regularly for Vegas in their cup run? None.

 

[Micklebot]

We have 6 forwards, 3 top defence that play the same side, a backup goalie...no prospects, picks or cap. We sold Everything! Finished bottom of the league for 6 years. It's madness to hope for a hasbeen to play im the bottom 6. We should have elc guys that we drafted to do that...

Tkachuk, Stu, Norris, Giroux, Batherson, DeBrincat (for now), that's 6 very good forwards

So Pinto and Greig are either forwards on this team or prospects, they certainly aren't nothing. both have top 6 potential, but are almost certainly quality middle 6 guys going forward. that makes 8 of your 12 lineup spots, or more accurately of your top 9 spots. All with the exception of Giroux are 26 or under.

4 forward spots to fill, we've got Kastelic who I think is a fine 4th line center with some upside if he can stay healthy.

For better or worse, Joseph is here, and while overpaid, he's certainly a capable bottom 6 forward, leaving two more spots up front.

The sky isn't falling,

Tkachuk-Norris-Batherson
DeBrincat-Stutzle-Giroux
Greig-Pinto-Joseph
xxx-Kastelic-xxx

Kelly, Sokolov

Chabot-Zub
Sanderson-Chychrun
Brannstrom-Hamonic(?)

JBD, Kleven(callup)

Forsberg
Sogaard


Now, we can compare that to the roster of players that played 25+ games last year for us and finished 6 pts out

Tkachuk-Stutzle-Giroux
DeBrincat-Pinto-Batherson
Brassard-Gambrell-Joseph
Motte-Kastelic-Watson
Kelly

Chabot-Zub
Sanderson-Hamonic
Brannstrom-Holden

Zaitsev

Talbot
Forsberg

Seems like we have a much more promising roster,

 

[JD1]

Tkachuk, Stu, Norris, Giroux, Batherson, DeBrincat (for now), that's 6 very good forwards

So Pinto and Greig are either forwards on this team or prospects, they certainly aren't nothing. both have top 6 potential, but are almost certainly quality middle 6 guys going forward. that makes 8 of your 12 lineup spots, or more accurately of your top 9 spots. All with the exception of Giroux are 26 or under.

4 forward spots to fill, we've got Kastelic who I think is a fine 4th line center with some upside if he can stay healthy.

For better or worse, Joseph is here, and while overpaid, he's certainly a capable bottom 6 forward, leaving two more spots up front.

The sky isn't falling,

Tkachuk-Norris-Batherson
DeBrincat-Stutzle-Giroux
Greig-Pinto-Joseph
xxx-Kastelic-xxx

Kelly, Sokolov

Chabot-Zub
Sanderson-Chychrun
Brannstrom-Hamonic(?)

JBD, Kleven(callup)

Forsberg
Sogaard


Now, we can compare that to the roster of players that played 25+ games last year for us and finished 6 pts out

Tkachuk-Stutzle-Giroux
DeBrincat-Pinto-Batherson
Brassard-Gambrell-Joseph
Motte-Kastelic-Watson
Kelly

Chabot-Zub
Sanderson-Hamonic
Brannstrom-Holden

Zaitsev

Talbot
Forsberg

Seems like we have a much more promising roster,

How's your head? Making any progress on softening up the wall?

 

[Big Muddy]

Debrincat is probably playing for a trade to Detroit or waiting to hit the open (free agency) market. Too bad one of the other Senators players couldn't tell Debrincat that he has heard that he will given PP time next year which would result in a reduction of PP minutes for Debrincat.

 

[Tuna99]

Masterpiece or serendipity? To believe it was a masterpiece, Dorion would have to known that the Sharks were going to have a bad year. I'd say he made some good moves, and some bad.

I can’t believe fans still believe Dorion. He said himself his goal was the playoffs last year and he failed and then this year he said his goal was playoffs next year - Mendes called him out in writing (which of course Dorion said he didn’t say which was of course wrong) and his entire secret plan wa proven to be BS literally 2 minutes after Dorion said “we’ve followed the plan to letter” - and Mendes was like “umm you said playoff last year and you’re still not in the playoffs” - it’s a gong show with 1 good trade mixed in there

 

[Golden_Jet]

I can’t believe fans still believe Dorion. He said himself his goal was the playoffs last year and he failed and then this year he said his goal was playoffs next year - Mendes called him out in writing (which of course Dorion said he didn’t say which was of course wrong) and his entire secret plan wa proven to be BS literally 2 minutes after Dorion said “we’ve followed the plan to letter” - and Mendes was like “umm you said playoff last year and you’re still not in the playoffs” - it’s a gong show with 1 good trade mixed in there

I thought he said , they wanted to be in the hunt for a spot , at the TDL.

 

[bert]

Tkachuk, Stu, Norris, Giroux, Batherson, DeBrincat (for now), that's 6 very good forwards

So Pinto and Greig are either forwards on this team or prospects, they certainly aren't nothing. both have top 6 potential, but are almost certainly quality middle 6 guys going forward. that makes 8 of your 12 lineup spots, or more accurately of your top 9 spots. All with the exception of Giroux are 26 or under.

4 forward spots to fill, we've got Kastelic who I think is a fine 4th line center with some upside if he can stay healthy.

For better or worse, Joseph is here, and while overpaid, he's certainly a capable bottom 6 forward, leaving two more spots up front.

The sky isn't falling,

Tkachuk-Norris-Batherson
DeBrincat-Stutzle-Giroux
Greig-Pinto-Joseph
xxx-Kastelic-xxx

Kelly, Sokolov

Chabot-Zub
Sanderson-Chychrun
Brannstrom-Hamonic(?)

JBD, Kleven(callup)

Forsberg
Sogaard


Now, we can compare that to the roster of players that played 25+ games last year for us and finished 6 pts out

Tkachuk-Stutzle-Giroux
DeBrincat-Pinto-Batherson
Brassard-Gambrell-Joseph
Motte-Kastelic-Watson
Kelly

Chabot-Zub
Sanderson-Hamonic
Brannstrom-Holden

Zaitsev

Talbot
Forsberg

Seems like we have a much more promising roster,

I cant imagine breaking up Stutzle and Tkachuk. Brady makes so much room for him and teams will take liberties if he isnt around. Both had two of the best offensive seasons senators forwards have ever had last year. I really dont know what to do after the Tkachuk Stutzle pairing as its too good to mess with.

Thats where the issues come in with the rest of the forward group. I really dont think a line of Debrincat Norris Batherson is going to work 5 on 5. Maybe I am wrong and Norris can provide that puck retrieval motor but as a centerman that doesnt typically fit the role. Grieg did look good with them for a bit but I dont want to rush him. Joseph might be a better fit, but we know that Debrincat and Pinto doesnt work either. Unless they get another high motor guy to play with them.

Goes back to my original argument too many players that play a similar style and not enough speed and tenacity. This is where they really miss Formenton he's a perfect compliment to what this team has.

To me Greig is not ready. If they want him to be anything more than a depth player he needs to develop his offensive game at the pro level. I think going out and trying to find a replacement player that is a UFA for this season should be the prerogative. I think Sokolov deserves a real look this year too, I like his big body and he has strong hockey sense. Some patience is likely needed but the tools are there. I know his skating is not pretty but he does get around and he has a good stick. I think there are players that can be identified that could potentially work here.

If Grieg was ready I would probably try something like this.

Tkachuk Stutzle Giroux
Grieg Norris Batherson
Debrincat Pinto Joseph
XXXX Kastelic XXX

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Quentin Musty: big 6 ft 2 skilled winger who is still 17 and who put up 78 points in 53 games going 26th ovr.

Stenberg right before and Calum Ritchie right after, with David Edstrom as the last pick of the draft.

Dorion: good draft to not have a 1st while he spends a previous #10 on Boucher and a #7 on a player he will have to sell for pennies.

is this guy real?

 

[BondraTime]

I thought he said , they wanted to be in the hunt for a spot , at the TDL.

It changes as the years go by.

Here’s a quote from April 2019.

“Next year, we need to start contending for the playoffs. Two years from now, we need to be a playoff team,” Dorion said. “Three years from now, we need to be a team that contends in the playoffs.”

“And those are words from the general manager. It has to be like that,” Dorion said. “Maybe I’m too positive. Maybe I’m too blunt. But I really feel strongly about these statements.”

2019-20 — Senators compete for the playoffs - Finished 30th

2020-21 — Senators make the playoffs - Finished 23rd

2021-22 — Senators are a team pushing for the Stanley Cup - Finished 25th

He’s said so many different, wildly abrupt things over his tenure it’s hard to know what his expectations are. I’m sure that changed over the next 2 years, but hard to take any expectations he says, about anything, seriously.

 

[Micklebot]

I cant imagine breaking up Stutzle and Tkachuk. Brady makes so much room for him and teams will take liberties if he isnt around. Both had two of the best offensive seasons senators forwards have ever had last year. I really dont know what to do after the Tkachuk Stutzle pairing as its too good to mess with.

Thats where the issues come in with the rest of the forward group. I really dont think a line of Debrincat Norris Batherson is going to work 5 on 5. Maybe I am wrong and Norris can provide that puck retrieval motor but as a centerman that doesnt typically fit the role. Grieg did look good with them for a bit but I dont want to rush him. Joseph might be a better fit, but we know that Debrincat and Pinto doesnt work either. Unless they get another high motor guy to play with them.

Goes back to my original argument too many players that play a similar style and not enough speed and tenacity. This is where they really miss Formenton he's a perfect compliment to what this team has.

To me Greig is not ready. If they want him to be anything more than a depth player he needs to develop his offensive game at the pro level. I think going out and trying to find a replacement player that is a UFA for this season should be the prerogative. I think Sokolov deserves a real look this year too, I like his big body and he has strong hockey sense. Some patience is likely needed but the tools are there. I know his skating is not pretty but he does get around and he has a good stick. I think there are players that can be identified that could potentially work here.

If Grieg was ready I would probably try something like this.

Tkachuk Stutzle Giroux
Grieg Norris Batherson
Debrincat Pinto Joseph
XXXX Kastelic XXX

I just don't see the argument that you can't break up Tkachuk and Stu,

Just one year earlier, Tkachuk-Norris-Batherson was a menace to opposing teams. Nobody wanted to break that up.

To me, both Tkachuk and Stu are good enough to carry their own lines.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I cant imagine breaking up Stutzle and Tkachuk. Brady makes so much room for him and teams will take liberties if he isnt around. Both had two of the best offensive seasons senators forwards have ever had last year. I really dont know what to do after the Tkachuk Stutzle pairing as its too good to mess with.

Thats where the issues come in with the rest of the forward group. I really dont think a line of Debrincat Norris Batherson is going to work 5 on 5. Maybe I am wrong and Norris can provide that puck retrieval motor but as a centerman that doesnt typically fit the role. Grieg did look good with them for a bit but I dont want to rush him. Joseph might be a better fit, but we know that Debrincat and Pinto doesnt work either. Unless they get another high motor guy to play with them.

Goes back to my original argument too many players that play a similar style and not enough speed and tenacity. This is where they really miss Formenton he's a perfect compliment to what this team has.

To me Greig is not ready. If they want him to be anything more than a depth player he needs to develop his offensive game at the pro level. I think going out and trying to find a replacement player that is a UFA for this season should be the prerogative. I think Sokolov deserves a real look this year too, I like his big body and he has strong hockey sense. Some patience is likely needed but the tools are there. I know his skating is not pretty but he does get around and he has a good stick. I think there are players that can be identified that could potentially work here.

There are some nice pieces.

I think the difference here is emo and hope vs putting the cards on your side of the table with a better chance at success. Too many ifs... Too much faith in bounce backs , not to mention philosophies around holding players accountable and getting them to play the right way within a tighter structure consistently vs the Sunday night pickup game . The roster needs to improve ... build to make the playoffs (we can be fairly close) , build to succeed in the playoffs we are not close .. that should be evident to everyone.

My issue is the lack of control , the rush to be something we are not.. and using all our futures to almost get to a place where we are in , but can't win
We need to keep building .,.. you want years of being a contender... you need to be able to keep some turn over with quality coming up through your system to keep affording the team.. Its all parts the the organization to move forward to success. We can get there .,.. but we have to stop making costly mistakes that set us back.