Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[bert]

View attachment 719399

A select group of Sens fans no matter what Dorion does

I dont think this is accurate. When the bad outweighs the good but such a wide margin then its hard to give him the benefit of the doubt. The number 1 good thing he has done was trading the best player in franchise history. That lucked into getting Stutzle. The pick was pushed a year due to the Kane trade where a team went from the WCF to 5th last in the league after being a perennial contender. If that pick isnt pushed it was in the 20's. Thats the pick the team delt for.

Other than the Karlsson trade what other big wins does he have?

I know.


Hence the phrase pre-bitching lol

The draft is 8 days away. Were going on hypotheticals completely now? That's where the desperation level is to defend Dorion?

 

[JD1]

I dont think this is accurate. When the bad outweighs the good but such a wide margin then its hard to give him the benefit of the doubt. The number 1 good thing he has done was trading the best player in franchise history. That lucked into getting Stutzle. The pick was pushed a year due to the Kane trade where a team went from the WCF to 5th last in the league after being a perennial contender. If that pick isnt pushed it was in the 20's. Thats the pick the team delt for.

Other than the Karlsson trade what other big wins does he have?


The draft is 8 days away. Were going on hypotheticals completely now? That's where the desperation level is to defend Dorion?

We didn't have a first last year because we acquired DeBrincat

We don't have a first this year because we acquired Chychrun. Do you think we overpaid for Chychrun? Would you like that trade to be undone? It can't go both ways. You can't applaud the Chychrun deal and then turn around and lament the draft capital given up to acquire him.

If we sign DeBrincat then we get value from that trade. If we move him and recoup assets, then you're looking at what was given up versus the value of what was recouped plus the value of a season of DeBrincat.

I could flip it around and say this is the level we're going to to criticize Dorion. The Chychrun deal cost us some draft capital but it was a good deal.

How the DeBrincat situation ends up isn't known.

So ya, pre-bitching seems appropriate

 

[Masked]

I dont think this is accurate. When the bad outweighs the good but such a wide margin then its hard to give him the benefit of the doubt. The number 1 good thing he has done was trading the best player in franchise history. That lucked into getting Stutzle. The pick was pushed a year due to the Kane trade where a team went from the WCF to 5th last in the league after being a perennial contender. If that pick isnt pushed it was in the 20's. Thats the pick the team delt for.

Other than the Karlsson trade what other big wins does he have?

Drafting Brady, Pinto, and Sanderson. Signing Zub. Claiming Forsberg on waivers. Hopefully the Chychrun trade. Trading Murray to the Leafs. Locking up Timmy long term.

Assen na yo!

 

[JD1]

no.. their poor neighbours North.. RRS

What is RRS?

 

[Micklebot]

The draft is 8 days away. Were going on hypotheticals completely now? That's where the desperation level is to defend Dorion?

You know as well as anyone that there's a high likelihood we make trade Bert, it's just as hypothetical to assume we don't as it is to assume we do, what's the rush, wait the 8 days and then you can complain if we still don't have a pick in the first 3 rounds.

It's not defending Dorion, it's just showing a bit of patience to let things actually happen before we light the torches and pull out the pitch forks.

 

[Sens Vader]

So the bolded portion(s) I do not agree with. Debrincat was never a good fit to begin with. The 27 -35 goals will be replaced with Norris. What this team needs is a better complimentary player for Norris and Batherson. They need a player that is physical, good at puck retrieval and net drive while still having the skill to play in the top 6. Another Debrincat is actually redundant on this roster. Norris or Giroux are more than capable of sliding into his spot on the PP. A player that is a second PP type of guy that doest need to play first PP for his ego would be a better fit. A more balanced roster with players embracing their specific roles. This type of player shouldn't cost more than 5.5 million could come in as low as 3.5 million.

I am thinking of one of these guys Copp, Barbashev, Bertuzzi, Killorn, J. Staal, C, Brown, Wood, Domi, Haula etc.

I dont think they need a #1 goalie but they need a guy that can give them 35 to 45 solid games. Goaltending by committee is a must for every team even Tampa and Dallas. As great as Vasilevsky and Oettinger are they got tired in the playoffs.

Varlamov, Andersen, Hill, Jarry, Samsonov, Korpisalo

All UFA's.

I agree on the middle 6 and the back end. A physical RD would be good for the third pairing, Mayfield, Gudas, Schenn, Hamonic all fit the profile.

Id like an enforcer on the 4ht line like Reaves or Lucic.

Long list of needs for this team but there are options. The flat cap has really come at the right time. Not many teams or teams as desirable destinations have cap space. I think dealing Debrincat for futures and targeting these types of free agents will not only be best for now but the future.

I Agree with all of this,

Those are the exact type of players I would target as well.

It is a lot to do but it is definitely doable, we just have to have a to find the right fit in each slot

 

[DJB]

I dont think this is accurate. When the bad outweighs the good but such a wide margin then its hard to give him the benefit of the doubt. The number 1 good thing he has done was trading the best player in franchise history. That lucked into getting Stutzle. The pick was pushed a year due to the Kane trade where a team went from the WCF to 5th last in the league after being a perennial contender. If that pick isnt pushed it was in the 20's. Thats the pick the team delt for.

Other than the Karlsson trade what other big wins does he have?


The draft is 8 days away. Were going on hypotheticals completely now? That's where the desperation level is to defend Dorion?

There are staunch Dorion defenders as well that this meme would work for as well

The truth lies somewhere in the middle however

 

[bert]

We didn't have a first last year because we acquired DeBrincat

We don't have a first this year because we acquired Chychrun. Do you think we overpaid for Chychrun? Would you like that trade to be undone? It can't go both ways. You can't applaud the Chychrun deal and then turn around and lament the draft capital given up to acquire him.

If we sign DeBrincat then we get value from that trade. If we move him and recoup assets, then you're looking at what was given up versus the value of what was recouped plus the value of a season of DeBrincat.

I could flip it around and say this is the level we're going to to criticize Dorion. The Chychrun deal cost us some draft capital but it was a good deal.

How the DeBrincat situation ends up isn't known.

So ya, pre-bitching seems appropriate

Do you actually like the Debrincat trade knowing they didnt have a deal in place? They likely arent getting back what they gave up for him. It was a desperation move. That's not pre bitching thats calling a spade a spade.

I dont think a team that misses the playoffs for 6 straight years should have no picks in the first three rounds for two straight seasons.

Chyrchurn deal could be good but it was a hard one to make given the draft capital they gave up for Debrincat.

Labelling posters for not liking bad trades and getting personal doesnt really fit for me.

 

[Ice-Tray]

To me this seems to be another weird divisive issue argued in a vacuum.

I get people are upset about Boucher, but the next first was traded for DBC who will either sign or become a bunch of assets quite possibly worthy of that first in terms of value, stay tuned, too soon to complain about it.

This year’s first turned into Chychrun, again, a player that would be the best case scenario for our first this year realistically, and even better he is of an age to fit into our team perfectly last season. We not only have the top end value for the pick, but we don’t have to wait for it, nor is he a vet on the downswing.

Picks are just assets, why do we care if we upgraded those assets for premier young players in the league for two drafts? It’s unlikely that those picks would ever be as good as the two players we have. That’s actually solid asset management, that also made our team immediately better for the short and long term.

The draft is fun, but having better young NHL star players to actuallly play on our team now, now that we’re ready for playoff hockey, is way more fun in my opinion.

Consider that statistically, historically, the two first we had were very UNLIKELY to ever become as good as the players we got back from trading them.

 

[Ice-Tray]

You know as well as anyone that there's a high likelihood we make trade Bert, it's just as hypothetical to assume we don't as it is to assume we do, what's the rush, wait the 8 days and then you can complain if we still don't have a pick in the first 3 rounds.

It's not defending Dorion, it's just showing a bit of patience to let things actually happen before we light the torches and pull out the pitch forks.

Hahaha, that’s not at ALL how Bert and friends roll.

Get angry now, and everyone who disagrees is a moron who doesn’t know the game because they never played at a high level!!!

8 days?? Who has time wait that long when a good freak out can happen today!

 

[bert]

Drafting Brady, Pinto, and Sanderson. Signing Zub. Claiming Forsberg on waivers. Hopefully the Chychrun trade. Trading Murray to the Leafs. Locking up Timmy long term.

Assen na yo!

Top 5 picks are wins? The same year they drafted Pinto they should have had Byram but didnt have the pick because of the Duchene deal which really turned into Lassi Thomson.

They traded multiple picks for Murray then traded more picks to get rid of him and retained. That is certainly a horrible horrible sequence of events. Its actually a reason why they are pressed against the cap this year.

I like the Chychurn deal in theory but if they dont end up extending him or if he stays injured its a bad one.

Signing Stutzle is great, they were very fortunate that Jack Hughes just signed an 8 X 8 the previous season.

Major L's

Zibanejad trade, Duchene trade, Hoffman trade, Stone trade, Gustavsson trade, Murray trade, Demelo Trade, Duclair Walking, Paul trade, Connor Brown Trade, Stepan Trade.

The L's badly outweigh the W's.

Trading draft capital like they did for Debrincat without having an extension in place is pretty nuts. Anyway its not done yet so I wont decide its a complete loss but to expect to get the same thing back would be pretty naive. I mean we saw him do the exact same thing with Duchene and its a similar situation to Stone. So hopefully he doesnt ignore both of those mistakes. He should have traded him at the deadline last year.

Dorion is going to be gone anyways but lets look at the big picture its been bad way more L's than W's. Which is why I am sure they will be looking to go in a different direction. On to the new leadership in the organization. Its a new era.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Top 5 picks are wins? The same year they drafted Pinto they should have had Byram but didnt have the pick because of the Duchene deal which really turned into Lassi Thomson.

They traded multiple picks for Murray then traded more picks to get rid of him and retained. That is certainly a horrible horrible sequence of events. Its actually a reason why they are pressed against the cap this year.

I like the Chychurn deal in theory but if they dont end up extending him or if he stays injured its a bad one.

Signing Stutzle is great, they were very fortunate that Jack Hughes just signed an 8 X 8 the previous season.

Major L's

Zibanejad trade, Duchene trade, Hoffman trade, Stone trade, Gustavsson trade, Murray trade, Demelo Trade, Duclair Walking, Paul trade, Connor Brown Trade, Stepan Trade.

The L's badly outweigh the W's.

Trading draft capital like they did for Debrincat without having an extension in place is pretty nuts. Anyway its not done yet so I wont decide its a complete loss but to expect to get the same thing back would be pretty naive. I mean we saw him do the exact same thing with Duchene and its a similar situation to Stone. So hopefully he doesnt ignore both of those mistakes. He should have traded him at the deadline last year.

Dorion is going to be gone anyways but lets look at the big picture its been bad way more L's than W's. Which is why I am sure they will be looking to go in a different direction. On to the new leadership in the organization. Its a new era.

Lol “major L’s”….

 

[Beech]

What is RRS?

Sorry RSS.

Riverside south

 

[Philadelphia Collins]

Trading the first and second round picks in the Oliver Bonk draft should be a fireable offense

 

[JD1]

I dont think a team that misses the playoffs for 6 straight years should have no picks in the first three rounds for two straight seasons.

Is that the case with us?

Sorry RSS.

Riverside south

Hmmm.

I used to ride my motorcross bike in the fields where Riverside South is. Armstrong and Spratt Roads were gravel in those days.

 

[BankStreetParade]

I dont think a team that misses the playoffs for 6 straight years should have no picks in the first three rounds for two straight seasons.

So teams that miss the playoffs should never trade draft capital to improve their roster?

 

[bert]

Is that the case with us?


Hmmm.

I used to ride my motorcross bike in the fields where Riverside South is. Armstrong and Spratt Roads were gravel in those days.

As of right now it is, if that changes great we can evaluate from there. But if they downgraded the picks big time for 1 year of Debrincat that is also a tough look. Ultimately we all want the same thing here. I hope they get a ton of futures back for Debrincat personally.

So teams that miss the playoffs should never trade draft capital to improve their roster?

I think the time you trade draft capital is when you are close or have had the opportunity to truly identify what your team is missing. When you miss the playoffs how can you tell what your team is missing to get to the next level. I think you continue to build internally until the time is right. Or if you are going to do it, it cant be for a rental the player must have an extension in place or be on a long term deal. Teams that trade for rentals should be contenders.

 

[Beech]

Is that the case with us?


Hmmm.

I used to ride my motorcross bike in the fields where Riverside South is. Armstrong and Spratt Roads were gravel in those days.

if the city allwos the roads to continue to deteriorate. They will be that again.

do you go to MX101?

 

[Masked]

Top 5 picks are wins? The same year they drafted Pinto they should have had Byram but didnt have the pick because of the Duchene deal which really turned into Lassi Thomson.

They traded multiple picks for Murray then traded more picks to get rid of him and retained. That is certainly a horrible horrible sequence of events. Its actually a reason why they are pressed against the cap this year.

I like the Chychurn deal in theory but if they dont end up extending him or if he stays injured its a bad one.

Signing Stutzle is great, they were very fortunate that Jack Hughes just signed an 8 X 8 the previous season.

I'm looking at these wins independently of anything else. I'm not bringing up his losses to deny his wins.

Yes, top 5 picks can be wins. If this board was picking we'd have Zadina and Rossi instead.

Trading Murray to the Leafs was a double win because it made the Sens better and made the Leafs worse.

That being said that Dorion has had almost no wins regarding pro scouting is enough in my mind to cost him his job. He might know hockey but I don't think he is capable of building a good team around him. If he had half way decent pro scouting we'd have been in the playoffs last season.

Assen na yo!

 

[Senator Stanley]

I'm looking at these wins independently of anything else. I'm not bringing up his losses to deny his wins.

Yes, top 5 picks can be wins. If this board was picking we'd have Zadina and Rossi instead.

Trading Murray to the Leafs was a double win because it made the Sens better and made the Leafs worse.

That being said that Dorion has had almost no wins regarding pro scouting is enough in my mind to cost him his job. He might know hockey but I don't think he is capable of building a good team around him. If he had half way decent pro scouting we'd have been in the playoffs last season.

Assen na yo!

At best, the entire Murray debacle is a wash. I'm not patting Dorion on the back for paying to fix another of his own f*** ups.

 

[BankStreetParade]

I think the time you trade draft capital is when you are close or have had the opportunity to truly identify what your team is missing. When you miss the playoffs how can you tell what your team is missing to get to the next level. I think you continue to build internally until the time is right. Or if you are going to do it, it cant be for a rental the player must have an extension in place or be on a long term deal. Teams that trade for rentals should be contenders.

This is your best argument against? Good Lord, nvm this conversation.

 

[bert]

This is your best argument against? Good Lord, nvm this conversation.

This is your trash response once again. Not even a rebuttal, it makes logical sense. You dont trade top 10 picks in the middle of a rebuild when you arent contending. You keep building. Good lord NVM this conversation. There was a good debate happening with actual content. Yet again you come in and contribute nothing and derail the conversation.

 

[armani]

I'm looking at these wins independently of anything else. I'm not bringing up his losses to deny his wins.

Yes, top 5 picks can be wins. If this board was picking we'd have Zadina and Rossi instead.

Trading Murray to the Leafs was a double win because it made the Sens better and made the Leafs worse.

That being said that Dorion has had almost no wins regarding pro scouting is enough in my mind to cost him his job. He might know hockey but I don't think he is capable of building a good team around him. If he had half way decent pro scouting we'd have been in the playoffs last season.

Assen na yo!

I preferred Zadina over Tkachuk and Rossi over Sanderson. Those moves would have set this organization behind, way behind, as much as I liked Rossi with 67s and still think he can make a good career out of himself.

 

[Icelevel]

View attachment 719399

A select group of Sens fans no matter what Dorion does

Now do the same one for Donald trump

 

[JD1]

As of right now it is, if that changes great we can evaluate from there. But if they downgraded the picks big time for 1 year of Debrincat that is also a tough look. Ultimately we all want the same thing here. I hope they get a ton of futures back for Debrincat personally.


I think the time you trade draft capital is when you are close or have had the opportunity to truly identify what your team is missing. When you miss the playoffs how can you tell what your team is missing to get to the next level. I think you continue to build internally until the time is right. Or if you are going to do it, it cant be for a rental the player must have an extension in place or be on a long term deal. Teams that trade for rentals should be contenders.

Which two years is it we've had no picks in the first 3 rounds?

Here's the draft history
Ottawa Senators Draft History at hockeydb.com

As of right now, we haven't had a single season in the Dorion era with no picks in the first 3 rounds.

I'm counting 22 picks in the first three rounds in the Dorion era from 2017 to now.

I don't understand what you're referring to here because no picks in the first three rounds hasn't happened. Are you referring to 2023 and 2024?

if the city allwos the roads to continue to deteriorate. They will be that again.

do you go to MX101?

I have no idea what mx101 is so I guess not.