Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Gil Gunderson]

The fruits of sucking after that trade should have been greater. I love Sanderson, but we should have gotten more for being so bad. Using our following top 10 picks on Boucher and one year of Cat doesn’t make up for losing Stone.

 

[DrEasy]

Am I getting this right: now if the Sens do well in a couple of years it will be because this was all Dorion's doing, and we suck, it will be because his successor dismantled all that Dorion built?

 

[Ice-Tray]

Am I getting this right: now if the Sens do well in a couple of years it will be because this was all Dorion's doing, and we suck, it will be because his successor dismantled all that Dorion built?

Eh, sit back and relax man, why not drum up that bullshit another day?

We have new ownership today that seems top tier, it deserves a sit back, a bevvie, and a smile or two

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Eh, sit back and relax man, why not drum up that bullshit another day?

We have new ownership today that seems top tier, it deserves a sit back, a bevvie, and a smile or two

there wi!l always be the haters... Sad ...always thinking they know more.

 

[Xspyrit]

And... to wrap up Dorion's Era, Mark Stone just captains his team to a Stanley Cup. I love Brannstrom but damn.

Really happy for Mark!

Zaitsev also brought a couple years of Brown and the second round pick he was traded for, so it’s not as bad as your saying

Who cares about Brown? I mean, I really like that type of player but we kept him for 3 seasons where we didn't even sniff the playoffs. Worse, everytime we were basically eliminated before Christmas. And then we traded him when we really needed him...

The transaction ends up :

Cody Ceci + Ben Harpur + 3rd

for

Connor Brown (rented for 3 meaningless seasons)
2nd in 2024 (that prospect might (IF) start making an impact when our window starts closing)
Nikita Zaitsev (cap dump that we ended up giving a 2nd + 4th to get rid of)

Don't you see how terrible this is? Cody Ceci was not a cap dump, he was RFA.

Don't forget the 2nd it took to get rid of Zaitsev.

And... a 4th too

Cost them more to get rid of him then they got back for Brown. The entire body of work by Dorion is awful when you actually break it down. If San Jose doesn't go from conference finalist to basement dweller his time here is one of the largest failures in hockey history of being a GM in the NHL.

And in the easiest "set up mode" possible (mainly due to the type of rebuild and the assets wealth when he started). A scorched earth rebuild when you only have to sell your assets as well as possible and collect as much draft capital as you can. Hire some decent vets to go through the rebuild who will properly insulate your kids (on the ice too)

Some people are so deep in denial that they can't see how far from OPTIMAL this rebuild has been managed. Just because we have wealth, doesn't mean things have been managed properly.

Thank Alfie, Andlauer now has the power to change up everything and prepare a better future

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Posted out of love. In a roomful of cynical boot licking hatred.

 

[Xspyrit]

Yes, goaltending has largely been a handicap for this team for a couple years now. Its really unfortunate and it's definitely the area of concern atm.

Problem is not goaltending, it's the Team Defense concept. We have a coaching staff with poor defensive hockey systems and who cannot instill 2-way play at a good enough NHL level. Our goalies have been exposed all the way. Anton Forsberg is the only guy who had a great season in 2021-22 over the last 6 years. He had to stand on his head and have a near Vezina level season to do that.

We would have been in great shape if we didn't stupidly trade Gustavsson for a more expensive, UFA-to-be and aging worse goalie (again, terrible pro scouting, internal or external)

Forsberg - Gustavsson until Sogaard and/or Merilainen become good would have been perfect

Dorion had Jack Hughes contract to work with. There has been far more bad than good. The only reason they even have Stutzle is an anomaly of a team collapsing. It's not hard to see the body of work it's well documented. He had the opportunity to burn down a team that went to the conference finals with the best players in their prime. They have missed the playoffs for 6 years has no prospect depth and no picks.

The Zibanejad, Duchene, Hoffman, Stone, Murray and now potentially the debrincat trades are all timers. Not even mentioning the Stepan, and Gustavsson trades. Unable to identify good players when they are here like Demelo and Duclair. He hit big on one that was luck. There is no way they projected that pick to be top 3.

San Jose stupidly let Pavelski go (to keep Evander Kane IIRC?) and for me that was the reason they could have missed the playoffs. I was expecting a top-10 pick, not a top-3 so yeah we lucked out a bit but Dorion deserves credit for the Karlsson trade. I personally always defended it, even when nobody did.

A funny thing with that trade is it could have been even better but Dorion managed to even "damage" his best move. Tierney, Balcers and DeMelo only netted a 3rd when they all had value at different timings.

If that is not a PROOF to my detractors that I am absolutely not biased, I don't know what will be. I look at everything rationally and Dorion has messed a LOT more than did good things. Yes we have plenty of great young players but looking at it blindly without doing proper due dilligence is a TRAP. I know that IF it was my billions, I would NOT have Pierre Dorion in charge.

We can see that the "Dorion defendors" only have one thing left nowadays, the "Balcers hill" while completely ignoring the whole argumentation as to why Dorion has been terrible as his job. I'll just ignore it from now on and categorize it as trolling

 

[Xspyrit]

doubt he would get fired right before the draft
more likely the new people are brought in and the old ones remain to work through the draft with them and then permanent staffing changes like that are made afterwards

We have no pick before the 4th round (which is crazy for a team missing the playoffs for 6 straight years) so f*** it, do it now. No more damage, our prospect pool and draft capital says we can't afford it anymore

Our young core will need support and aging players will need to be properly replaced too. Giroux is 35 for example. Chabot is going to turn 27. Let that sink in.

That's true. On the bright side, it would be pretty hard for the new GM to mess up all the good work Dorion did. They're almost all locked down on good long term contracts.

And what was it exactly? Drafting Tkachuk 4th OA and Sanderson 5th OA? How is it possible that we only have 2 pieces from the high first round after missing the playoffs 6 straight years, including being a top-3 worst team for the majority of it?

Or was it because of San Jose making bad choices that led them to fall apart? Also giving us Norris who we expected to be a "good 3rd line center"? Or having Giroux wanting a retirement contract in his hometown? Chabot, Paul and Batherson were already in the organization when the rebuild started so what else? Spending high 1st round picks on good players with not much term? OK. Turning Mark Stone into Brannstrom? Cool.

So that explains :

Tkachuk - Stutzle - Giroux
DeBrincat - Norris - Batherson
Joseph

Chabot - Chychrun
Sanderson
Brannstrom

Zub was a good add but it looks more like luck than anything as it seems they were not expecting much. It even took 9 games to start playing him in 2020-21 when we argably had the WORST NHL defense since the mid 90's Sharks.

Pinto and Greig were good draft picks, thanks to Trent Mann, the guy that Brian Murray brought in 2011

So what is it exactly? Want to see all the bad moves now?

Probably the worst thing that Andlauer could do. He has years of trade history and signings to evaluate Dorion on.

And it's not just the trades and signings in itself but the whole context around everything... the horrible pro scouting, the players/situations mishandlings, the awful asset management, the lack of foresight, the lack of understanding of proper roster construction, etc

No more being lulled into "the summer of Pierre" anymore. One thing I'd give him is that he's a very good used cars seller, dulled of a lot of gullible people

Being insulted by a dishcloth is not that insulting though lol. I'm pretty sure he lost respect (if he had any) from all European players... and well, probably most NHL players in general. What a stupid judgemental thing to say, Don Cherry's son?

 

[swiftwin]

And what was it exactly? Drafting Tkachuk 4th OA and Sanderson 5th OA? How is it possible that we only have 2 pieces from the high first round after missing the playoffs 6 straight years, including being a top-3 worst team for the majority of it?

Or was it because of San Jose making bad choices that led them to fall apart? Also giving us Norris who we expected to be a "good 3rd line center"? Or having Giroux wanting a retirement contract in his hometown? Chabot, Paul and Batherson were already in the organization when the rebuild started so what else? Spending high 1st round picks on good players with not much term? OK. Turning Mark Stone into Brannstrom? Cool.

So that explains :

Tkachuk - Stutzle - Giroux
DeBrincat - Norris - Batherson
Joseph

Chabot - Chychrun
Sanderson
Brannstrom

Zub was a good add but it looks more like luck than anything as it seems they were not expecting much. It even took 9 games to start playing him in 2020-21 when we argably had the WORST NHL defense since the mid 90's Sharks.

Pinto and Greig were good draft picks, thanks to Trent Mann, the guy that Brian Murray brought in 2011

So what is it exactly? Want to see all the bad moves now?

Let me guess... San Jose falling apart giving us a high 1st round pick was Dorion being lucky, but us falling apart in 2018, giving Colorado a high 1st round pick was a bad move?

It's pretty clear at this point you have a vendetta against Dorion for some reason (did he kick your dog? did he f*** your girl?) with all these double standards.

Giroux would have never come here if he felt the core Dorion built wasn't good enough.

Drafting Tkachuk is one thing, but playing hardball with him, forcing him to sign long term was the best part. Just look at what happened with his brother. Dorion went head to head with a notoriously difficult family and won.

Securing Stutzle a year early for 8 years (!!!) was another amazing move. It's probably going to be one of the best contracts in the league.

I could keep going on...

But I'm sure you have a long list of bad moves, which probably includes losing Balcers, and other pointless things.

 

[Union2017]

I can tell a lot about PD, but I don't blame him for Mark Stone trade. That was a mess, but not because of Dorion.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I can tell a lot about PD, but I don't blame him for Mark Stone trade. That was a mess, but not because of Dorion.

at all?

Let's go back to his RFA signing ahead of arbitration... Tell the story from there and give us your analysis.

 

[LuckyPierre]

Let me guess... San Jose falling apart giving us a high 1st round pick was Dorion being lucky, but us falling apart in 2018, giving Colorado a high 1st round pick was a bad move?

It's pretty clear at this point you have a vendetta against Dorion for some reason (did he kick your dog? did he f*** your girl?) with all these double standards.

Giroux would have never come here if he felt the core Dorion built wasn't good enough.

Drafting Tkachuk is one thing, but playing hardball with him, forcing him to sign long term was the best part. Just look at what happened with his brother. Dorion went head to head with a notoriously difficult family and won.

Securing Stutzle a year early for 8 years (!!!) was another amazing move. It's probably going to be one of the best contracts in the league.

I could keep going on...

But I'm sure you have a long list of bad moves, which probably includes losing Balcers, and other pointless things.

Giroux did not come here because of Pierre Dorion. His roots in Ottawa were the sole reason.

Dorion signing quality young players to contracts while they are under team control is a basic expectation of a general manager. Great deals for Brady and Tim, yes. Norris and Chabot are overpaid in terms of dollar value. Jury is out on Drake. Total miss on Colin White.

Keep in mind that in the recent past, PD has failed at that too - trading away top homegrown RFAs for less than market value. On the aggregate, lumping in Zibanejad, Karlsson, and Stone, he has simply not garnered enough of a return for what are world class players. We have Timmy and Josh to show for them - this roster should be much further ahead.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Problem is not goaltending, it's the Team Defense concept. We have a coaching staff with poor defensive hockey systems and who cannot instill 2-way play at a good enough NHL level. Our goalies have been exposed all the way. Anton Forsberg is the only guy who had a great season in 2021-22 over the last 6 years. He had to stand on his head and have a near Vezina level season to do that.

We would have been in great shape if we didn't stupidly trade Gustavsson for a more expensive, UFA-to-be and aging worse goalie (again, terrible pro scouting, internal or external)

Well ya, obviously, there's no denying that the Gus trade was a mistake. It worked out about as horribly as a trade possibly can. Trade a young guy with potential who puts up superstar numbers immediately and you take on an injury riddled 1b aging guy that played poorly. We'll see where Gus goes from here, but Talbot is surely done in Ottawa.

I don't really agree entirely with your thoughts though. Certainly, team defense has been an issue, that can't be denied based on the personnel and the eye test, but none of these guys can stay in the damn lineup and it is a problem. Injuries are the issue and their play yo yo'd when healthy because of that. Talbot, Forsberg and even Gus have all been in and out of the lineup with injuries and Murray was a damn joke with all of his. Like, that guy just needs to hang them up at this point. It's just too inconsistent. They'd be better off with a pedestrian guy that is healthy over these guys constantly disrupting the team. I have some faith in Forsberg, but we'll see, when healthy, he looked a lot more average last year than the season prior.

 

[swiftwin]

His roots in Ottawa were the sole reason.

Says who? Giroux said it himself that the team's direction was a major reason he wanted to sign here.

Dorion signing quality young players to contracts while they are under team control is a basic expectation of a general manager.

If it's so easy and basic, when who do so many general managers fail at it?

The same has to be said about drafting high. "Draft high is easy", yet many still fail at it. Heck, most around here were unbelievably upset when Dorion drafted Tkachuk instead of Zadina.

 

[Loach]

Says who? Giroux said it himself that the team's direction was a major reason he wanted to sign here.


If it's so easy and basic, when who do so many general managers fail at it?

The same has to be said about drafting high. "Draft high is easy", yet many still fail at it. Heck, most around here were unbelievably upset when Dorion drafted Tkachuk instead of Zadina.

Will you go to bat for the new GM the same way you do for PD?

 

[Mingus Dew]

At the very least Dorion's stunning ability to fail upwards should at least provide hope to the rest of us that are mediocre to bad at our jobs.

 

[Beech]

At the very least Dorion's stunning ability to fail upwards should at least provide hope to the rest of us that are mediocre to bad at our jobs.

no... if that was the case, you would be calling me Emperor...supreme leader Beech.

 

[Union2017]

at all?

Let's go back to his RFA signing ahead of arbitration... Tell the story from there and give us your analysis.

I might be wrong, I just think Stone wanted out and Pierre was hoping he would change his mind. Just out of curiosity, what do you think he could've done better back then? Again, not saying PD is awesome, I just think a lot of things were not really his choice in general.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I might be wrong, I just think Stone wanted out and Pierre was hoping he would change his mind. Just out of curiosity, what do you think he could've done better back then? Again, not saying PD is awesome, I just think a lot of things were not really his choice in general.

Judging by the interview the other day, it seems like he was hoping he'd eventually be able to offer a contract that would seal it, but Melnyk never allowed it.

I've seen it referenced a lot with both Karlsson and Stone and the team not offering NTC/NMC protection. I don't know if that's 100% confirmed, but we do know that if they weren't being offered, then there was zero chance either would accept regardless of other terms in the offer, and the team obviously wouldn't have been negotiating from a genuine footing. It was an exercise in futility if the above is in fact true.

 

[swiftwin]

Will you go to bat for the new GM the same way you do for PD?

I don't go to bat for anyone. I just know good moves when I see them. Considering the direction of this team, it's pretty clear I was right.

If a new GM comes in and makes good moves, I will support them.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I don't go to bat for anyone. I just know good moves when I see them. Considering the direction of this team, it's pretty clear I was right.

If a new GM comes in and makes good moves, I will support them.

Reading your posts, I think you focus too much on the reasoning behind the moves sometimes and consider them okay because you supported the thought process. You're not alone in that and many think that's the way you judge their work.

I'm a little more harsh with hindsight and think that even if the logic was sound, if it doesn't work out, then the egg is on the guy that made the move. Things like say Stepan & Gus may have some reasoning behind them, but there's no way anyone can look at the moves in hindsight and call it anything other than a mistake.

They may ultimately get there anyways, but its hard to deny there wasn't some opportunities squandered along the way and maybe the last couple years would have been a little more competitive otherwise.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

I don't go to bat for anyone. I just know good moves when I see them. Considering the direction of this team, it's pretty clear I was right.

If a new GM comes in and makes good moves, I will support them.

I read this in Dorions voice and its uncanny.

and no way, a team that was tanking and getting its pick of top prospects for years is trending up? you were so right. no one could have predicted that.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I might be wrong, I just think Stone wanted out and Pierre was hoping he would change his mind. Just out of curiosity, what do you think he could've done better back then? Again, not saying PD is awesome, I just think a lot of things were not really his choice in general.

I think he could have done better if he read the tea leaves at not being able to extend him and walk him to UFA.

A little similar to DeBrincat.. When a player will not extend you need to move him. Moving Stone at that point could have reaped a much better return.

I think you are right that Dorion wanted him to stay, hoped that he'd stay, hoped that he could convince ownership to pay up for him to stay .. but it was just hope. He waited so long and should have given himself more time whether at the initial 1 year extension or moving towards the TDL.

That is one hell of a player to a) Not keep and b) Not see the need to maximize the asset

 

[Union2017]

I think he could have done better if he read the tea leaves at not being able to extend him and walk him to UFA.

A little similar to DeBrincat.. When a player will not extend you need to move him. Moving Stone at that point could have reaped a much better return.

I think you are right that Dorion wanted him to stay, hoped that he'd stay, hoped that he could convince ownership to pay up for him to stay .. but it was just hope. He waited so long and should have given himself more time whether at the initial 1 year extension or moving towards the TDL.

That is one hell of a player to a) Not keep and b) Not see the need to maximize the asset

No, yes I agree with you, but I just think it does not necessarily show how good or bad he is as a GM, at least not that particular trade. I wish we had a different owner at that time. Not sure how honest was Melnyk with him either, so maybe him living in denial is not just his fault. Now, DeBrincat will be a different story, now he has a chance to do something about it, or at least I hope he does since we are now in another weird situation where we have a new owner but still don't know if PD will be a GM and how much can he and is he allowed to do at this point.

 

[LuckyPierre]

Says who? Giroux said it himself that the team's direction was a major reason he wanted to sign here.


If it's so easy and basic, when who do so many general managers fail at it?

The same has to be said about drafting high. "Draft high is easy", yet many still fail at it. Heck, most around here were unbelievably upset when Dorion drafted Tkachuk instead of Zadina.

Many general managers do fail at it. And they eventually get relieved of their duties as a result. It is an expectation regardless.

The CBA framework enables parity in the NHL through that exact mechanism of extended asset control. It is expected of general managers to maximize their use of assets through either retaining them or trading them at high value.

PD’s failure to figure that out in the earlier years of his tenure led to a string of basement finishes, and despite his declarations to the contrary, zero meaningful hockey games in the past six years. Time to go.