Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Sens Vader]

Andlauer has won at every level, no surprise he would want to change up the hockey ops staff - just as predicted

I am interested to see how this is played out. If it’s replacements right away, just new hires, or some transition period

 

[bicboi64]

We do not have our own pick in the first 3 rounds of the draft. We have not made the playoffs. We might be unable to re-sign one of our top 6 forwards on our NOT-A-PLAYOFF-TEAM.

But sure. Dorion was good at scouting. Why is he a GM again? To not draft players? That seems to be what you're suggesting.

Dorion is successful at drafting and so to lead this team into the future he traded all our draft picks and failed to make the playoffs. With managing like that we might as well fold the franchise.

Pretty much this. The idea that our rebuilt is done today and in good shape isn't true by any metric. We have our core signed long term, that's good. But we have zero bottom 6th depth, zero blue chip prospects in the system, not enough draft capital to acquire any, and will be losing a top 6 winger as well.

A full year of Norris and Chychrun will help us in the standings, but those guys don't replace our lack of depth, lack of draft capital or prospects.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I think its fair to say both apply at different times. Plenty of entrenched positions on all sides of the coin here and there's a wide variety of posters obviously and everyone can't be put in a box. One thing I've really noticed since the toxic vitriol here mostly died down is how nuanced the arguments are from those put in boxes. The disagreement from those seemingly within the same boxes started showing up again more and more.

Sports "experts" are everywhere and that's just not gonna change. Just be glad it's not as bad as facebook comments lol. I try to steer clear of the bickering these days either way. My beef was always more with Melnyk even if I'm not over the moon with Dorion's body of work, and now Melnyk is out of the picture.

Also, the idea of replacing a coach or GM has gotten a heck of a lot more exciting with Melnyk gone and the pool the team just opened itself up to that wasn't there previously. I think that's a big reason it gets so much attention. This team has never had that luxury and I think that changes the outlook significantly. It's no longer simply about which GM we can hire internally, or which coach will accept a low salary, and I think that's a big driver of the conversation.

Oh for sure, everyone thinks they are reasonable and the other is nuts!

Exciting times for sure

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Oh for sure, everyone thinks they are reasonable and the other is nuts!

Exciting times for sure

Well, luckily I'm usually available as the voice of reason

 

[swiftwin]

We do not have our own pick in the first 3 rounds of the draft. We have not made the playoffs. We might be unable to re-sign one of our top 6 forwards on our NOT-A-PLAYOFF-TEAM.

But sure. Dorion was good at scouting. Why is he a GM again? To not draft players? That seems to be what you're suggesting.

Dorion is successful at drafting and so to lead this team into the future he traded all our draft picks and failed to make the playoffs. With managing like that we might as well fold the franchise.

You didn't address anything in what you quoted.

I said people around here use classic Orwellian double-think, where they'll simultaneously criticize Dorion for "making bad hires", but also refuse to give Dorion credit for good things because his underlings did them, not him. (ie. Boucher getting us far in the playoffs, or Mann being the one drafting).

 

[JD1]

as opposed to?

The context at the time of an event?

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

The context at the time of an event?

When people assess performance its not at the time of past events

 

[Sens Vader]

How does the chain of command work in the midst of a sale?

We gotta make trades and FA signings!

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

How does the chain of command work in the midst of a sale?

We gotta make trades and FA signings!

Status quo until the new owners take control.. Garrioch just posted an article on this

 

[BankStreetParade]

How does the chain of command work in the midst of a sale?

We gotta make trades and FA signings!

I'm guessing Dorion is working with the existing budget structure that was established by the Board with the approval of the Melnyk sisters. So I'm guessing there's money earmarked for Debrincat's extension, which can either be used on that contract or re-assigned to sign other players in the likely event that they move Debrincat. You're probably not gonna see much more than a little work on the bottom 6 in addition to that piece unless it's a net zero transaction.

 

[Beech]

How does the chain of command work in the midst of a sale?

We gotta make trades and FA signings!

as of now, the present board and if that board has given authority to Dorion. Nothing changes.. there may be some agreements that limit moves, but otherwise Dorion operates as if this was June 2022 and not June 2023.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Dorion said recently in an interview that we'll be a cap team, so at least spending isn't being limited in the mean time.

 

[Sens Vader]

Status quo until the new owners take control.. Garrioch just posted an article on this

I don’t understand how it can be “status quo”

Even if that’s technically the case, I feel like Dorion is in an awkward spot. Like you don’t want to make a trade/signing the new owner is gonna disagree with

At the same time if he is handcuffed that hurts the ability for the Sens to tackle the draft and free agency

Strange situation, well unless this closes quickly

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I don’t understand how it can be “status quo”

Even if that’s technically the case, I feel like Dorion is in an awkward spot. Like you don’t want to make a trade/signing the new owner is gonna disagree with

At the same time if he is handcuffed that hurts the ability for the Sens to tackle the draft and free agency

Strange situation, well unless this closes quickly

ok so technically status quo... Well the new owner does not have a say now. The parameters were known by both parties. Both know there is this awkward period but the current owners and their charges remain in control. Dorion has to do his job like a good pro. Awkward yes but that's job for now and he has to be able to operate knowing that.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

I also want to ask this:

How many teams have successfully done a full scorched earth rebuild in 6 years or less? How many of these teams did it without a single one of the team's draft picks winning the lottery (top 3)?

So if you're right and Dorion is a genius and such an incredible GM, surely he will be a hot commodity amongst other NHL teams who trip over themselves trying to court him for GM or a senior role.

Right?

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

So if you're right and Dorion is a genius and such an incredible GM, surely he will be a hot commodity amongst other NHL teams who trip over themselves trying to court him for GM or a senior role.

Right?

You have to be really, really smart to like him so don't count on it.

 

[swiftwin]

So if you're right and Dorion is a genius and such an incredible GM, surely he will be a hot commodity amongst other NHL teams who trip over themselves trying to court him for GM or a senior role.

Right?

Dodging the question?

 

[Bileur]

I also want to ask this:

How many teams have successfully done a full scorched earth rebuild in 6 years or less? How many of these teams did it without a single one of the team's draft picks winning the lottery (top 3)?

How do you define « successful »?

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Dodging the question?

You're pumping success because the team moved from 7th to 12 in the 6th year of it's rebuild in a system where all you have to do is suck to get talent. Nothing more to say about that.

Anyway since everyone here is an idiot and you and the rest of league are rational and can see the radiance of Dorions intellect I'm sure teams will be tripping over for Dorion.

Let's make a 1000 dollar bet on wether or not Dorion will become GM again in the next 5 years.

Should be easy money for you right?

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

I don’t understand how it can be “status quo”

Even if that’s technically the case, I feel like Dorion is in an awkward spot. Like you don’t want to make a trade/signing the new owner is gonna disagree with

At the same time if he is handcuffed that hurts the ability for the Sens to tackle the draft and free agency

Strange situation, well unless this closes quickly

What ever limitations or guidelines the board put on Dorion a year or six months ago are still in effect. So whatever budget and direction they set in the spring when season ended is the summer budget and plan.

That would change when Andlauer officially takes over ownership. In theory, the deal could still fall apart before the ownership fully changes over, so you wouldn't want to make any big moves or change course until then.

 

[R We A Team]

So what are you guys going to do if Dorion isn't let go?

He still has 2 years on his contract and around the league most say he has built a nice young team that's just about to break out.

Dorion is considered to have done a great job of juggling a too hands on owner along with a limited budget.

Just because a few posters feel shame and embarrassment when Dorion talks doesn't mean the rest of the league feels that way.

You should try reading other boards and how they feel about their G.M.

Anyhow, point is What if they don't turf Dorion like you imagine happening?? Will you give the new owner a chance or will you condemn him for not firing Dorion immediately??

What if the new owner actually likes the direction we are going? Do you stop watching cause Dorion is still there??

Curious cause some seem to really have their hopes built up with regard to a new G.M.

 

[Knave]

You didn't address anything in what you quoted.

I said people around here use classic Orwellian double-think, where they'll simultaneously criticize Dorion for "making bad hires", but also refuse to give Dorion credit for good things because his underlings did them, not him. (ie. Boucher getting us far in the playoffs, or Mann being the one drafting).

If you think he is very good at scouting I am fine demoting him from GM to head scout. Happy?

That's your argument. Dorion is good at things. I'm sure you're good at things too. Some people are good at eating crayons.

Dorion is GM. I hope you understand that. I'm not interested in what he did 15 years ago as a scout. I am interested in the overall job as a GM. And by my measure which looks at team record and context he's one of the worst of all time. We have now completed 6 straight years of missed playoffs. When your roster consisted of a multiple Norris winner, a future Stanley Cup champion captain among other notable people..... and 6 years later you still can't make the playoffs it might be time for a change despite his involvement in drafting Erik Karlsson 15 years ago.

I mean damn, what's the expectation here? Every post starts with PRAISE BE TO DORION?

Give me a f***ing break. People have every reason to be critical.

 

[Daffy]

Dorion has made some decent moves, but the negatives far outweigh the positives. We have a good young core locked up, but we have no picks and our prospect pool is completely bare.

 

[Knave]

Dorion has made some decent moves, but the negatives far outweigh the positives. We have a good young core locked up, but we have no picks and our prospect pool is completely bare.

I just want to keep bringing up the Mike Milbury comparison. And when I dived into it Dorion has very similar numbers.

Milbury is mocked as one of the worst GMs ever in all of sport.

- meddling owner
- no salary cap floor so the owner could be even cheaper
- forced to trade star players

I would hope the people defending Dorion haven't joked about Milbury's performance as GM. Similar circumstances. Similar results. What will Dorion be remembered for by the wider hockey community?

Sometimes people aren't right for the job. And that would include Dorion as Ottawa Senators GM. That's okay. He seems to be a good scout. I'm sure someone will hire him for that.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I just want to keep bringing up the Mike Milbury comparison. And when I dived into it Dorion has very similar numbers.

Milbury is mocked as one of the worst GMs ever in all of sport.

- meddling owner
- no salary cap floor so the owner could be even cheaper
- forced to trade star players

I would hope the people defending Dorion haven't joked about Milbury's performance as GM. Similar circumstances. Similar results. What will Dorion be remembered for by the wider hockey community?

Sometimes people aren't right for the job. And that would include Dorion as Ottawa Senators GM. That's okay. He seems to be a good scout. I'm sure someone will hire him for that.

The push back you are receiving is because you refuse to consider context, and your points are hyperbolic.

Not many folks in here defend PD any further than to try and keep the discussions in the realm of reason.

Not sure Mike was let go after building a team like the current Sens group we have, but by all means keep trying to force the comparison.

In the end it’s already painfully obvious that the “wider hockey community” is impressed by this young Sens team, which should be an indicator of how the architect is viewed.

Hopefully one day you’ll move off your hill and enjoy the squad too.