Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Sweatred]

Great. Let me know when I've said something like that.

Daily ? Hourly ?

 

[stempniaksen]

probably the most underrated bad Dorion move and my personal favourite was the Hoffman trade

to OTT -> Boedker, Bergman, 6th
to SJS -> Hoffman, Donaghey, 5th

Boedker was a complete bust, yet another failure of Sens pro scouting. The other guys in the deal were non-factors. Hoffman was effectively used to convert a 5th round pick into a 6th round pick.

But the story doesn't end there as San Jose immediately turns around and trades him to Florida

to SJS -> 2nd, 4th, 5th
to FLA -> Hoffman, 7th

so simplifying by removing the non-factors we get

OTT gives -> Hoffman, 5th
OTT gets -> 6th

SJS gives -> 6th, 7th
SJS gets -> 2nd, 4th, 5th, 5th

FLA gives -> 2nd, 4th, 5th
FLA gets -> Hoffman, 7th

Yes, but karma from the hockey gods on this one led directly to Tim Stutzle. Dorion was playing the long game.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Daily ? Hourly ?

Then you fail to actually read my posts and are just lumping me in with others that do.

 

[Micklebot]

To be fair, that was mostly one persons interpretation, but they post a lot, so it takes on a life of its own.

I would think most realize it wasn't as simple as Mark forcing his way to his one and only destination.

We heard that Karlsson was forcing his way to Tbay all along the time he was on the block and would only sign there. He ended up getting traded without an extension in place, albeit in the days leading to the season opening and not at the deadline. Similar situations in all honesty, though Dorion handled the Karlsson situation a little better imo since he started the process earlier, and certainly had some better luck with how the futures played out, in both cases fans were of course disappointed with the return. In both cases, Dorion chose the offer he felt was best.

 

[Ice-Tray]

To be fair, that was mostly one persons interpretation, but they post a lot, so it takes on a life of its own.

I would think most realize it wasn't as simple as Mark forcing his way to his one and only destination.

I agree here. There isn’t any ‘force’. The player can’t stop a trade, and the team will usually make the best trade for the organization no matter what the player wants.

I think that as soon as the player’s agent is able to talk salary with other teams is when you can either drum up a better return because an extension adds value, and/or the player can start to dictate destination because ostensibly the team(s) where the player is willing to extend with would likely be the teams now with the best offers.

Also, with this permission, the agent can talk directly with with other teams, and who knows what gets said, what assurances are made, or whether a team can be steered away.

Dorion didn’t get extra value for the extension, and Stone’s camp was also able to signal to other teams that they weren’t willing to sign an extension if they wanted to. It adds an extra element to negotiations, and with limited time, also gave Stone’s camp more control.

In sum, to me, Dorion should not have given Stone’s camp the ability to talk extension at the TDL, and Stone should have been traded in the off season at an arbitrary deadline to sign an extension. This lesson needs to have been learned.

The fanbase would have flipped their lids, but I think everyone agrees that this is best for the team regardless.

 

[Micklebot]

Dorion should not have given Stone’s camp the ability to talk extension at the TDL, and Stone should have been traded in the off season at an arbitrary deadline to sign an extension. This lesson needs to have been learned.

Is there any confirmation that he actually did do that prior to having the deal with VGK agreed to? The only thing I've seen is Lebrun stating that VGK offered him a deal 5 mins after Dorion had agreed to a trade and about 45 mins prior to the deadline, but vegas wasn't willing to finalize till a contract in principal was reached. Stone rejected Vegas' first offer, and it took 30 excruciating mins to hammer out something, with about 15 minutes or so to spare before the deadline

LeBrun: Behind the scenes of the Mark Stone trade and why the Preds had the best deadline day

Plus, how Micheal Ferland became an 'own rental' and why Wayne Simmonds is the perfect fit in Nashville.

theathletic.com

 

[Sweatred]

Then you fail to actually read my posts and are just lumping me in with others that do.

Possible - if I’m wrong I’m sorry.

 

[bert]

How long was your break 45 minutes?

With responses like this I should consider another one.

 

[lancepitlick]

Even now Dorion has backed himself into a corner, like last offseason. There's no need to publicly state that they are looking to add a top6 forward and a top4 d and that they are considering trading their first round pick. Why say that Tomas Chabot came to you basically demanding that you add some quality NHL players?

It's possible that it makes zero difference as multiple teams may want to make that deal, but if I'm some other team and Dorion starts talking about trading for a roster player I'm asking for the moon and hoping he has no better options. Then he'll have to pull the trigger.

Just say: we are always looking for ways to improve our hockey club, whether through the draft, free agency or trade. We're happy to use the 7th pick as there's a lot of great players in this draft. As we've seen with Brady and Stutzle these days young guys can make an impact fairly quick these days, but we are also interested in improving our team for the next season so if a great offer for an NHL player came along it's something we'd consider.

 

[Sweatred]

Even now Dorion has backed himself into a corner, like last offseason. There's no need to publicly state that they are looking to add a top6 forward and a top4 d and that they are considering trading their first round pick. Why say that Tomas Chabot came to you basically demanding that you add some quality NHL players?

It's possible that it makes zero difference as multiple teams may want to make that deal, but if I'm some other team and Dorion starts talking about trading for a roster player I'm asking for the moon and hoping he has no better options. Then he'll have to pull the trigger.

Just say: we are always looking for ways to improve our hockey club, whether through the draft, free agency or trade. We're happy to use the 7th pick as there's a lot of great players in this draft. As we've seen with Brady and Stutzle these days young guys can make an impact fairly quick these days, but we are also interested in improving our team for the next season so if a great offer for an NHL player came along it's something we'd consider.

Do you need to be told
That ? Are you worried about the times he thinks he doesn’t need to improve his team? Feels obvious.

Dorion works in an environment who gets most of the hockey calls wrong and erects billboards in their protest. He needs you to buy a ticket or two. He’s trying to connect with the fan base.

He knows you didn’t like trading EK or drafting Pinto so he’s trying to give you something you want to hear before he drafts someone that infuriates the market.

 

[lancepitlick]

Do you need to be told
That ? Are you worried about the times he thinks he doesn’t need to improve his team? Feels obvious.

Dorion works in an environment who gets most of the hockey calls wrong and erects billboards in their protest. He needs you to buy a ticket or two. He’s trying to connect with the fan base.

He knows you didn’t like trading EK or drafting Pinto so he’s trying to give you something you want to hear before he drafts someone that infuriates the market.

You don't connect with the fanbase when you pledge to do things that you may or may not ever actually be able to do. Same as his pledge and failure last year. He'd have been better off saying nothing. Fans here aren't stupid, they want substance. If you want to trade your draft pick for a roster player then shut up and just do it, then sell the fans on the move after the fact. That goes a lot further than saying that you basically have to do something, then if it doesn't happen you look like an idiot. Basic negotiating 101: don't show your cards!!

 

[OD99]

I don’t get your point - Those teams lost massive chunks of talent. If their GM’s were so “great” they should have magically extended them before they left via UFA.

Hyman and Piet would look good on their old clubs now … how foolish…

Not surprised.

Those teams wanted their talent for the playoff run and made a decision that it was worth the risk to lose them for nothing - hence they never even attempted to trade them. If they had wanted to trade them they would have received great compensation.

GMPD on the other hand had already begun a rebuild yet bumbled his way to diminishing the return on a Selke nominee, All-Star, natural leader who was named captain the moment he was signed

Same thing though, right? Just general GM stuff.

Weather, merch, taxes, tickets.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

What makes you think Vegas had the best offer ? Are you trying to suggest Stone would have gone anywhere he was traded ? (Extended or not) ?

.....

I think Vegas had the best offer because there is no evidence that Stone turned down deals from other teams.

If there was evidence of that happening, then I would revisit my position. Which is why I asked if you had a source for it.

Also not 100% clear on what you mean by "Stone would have gone anywhere he was traded"... do you mean sign an extension? Or invoke an NTC or NMC ?

I for sure believe that part of any deal made would be dependent on Stone signing an extension, and I believe that would only happen if Stone thought he was getting fair UFA market value.

Apply Occam's razor: the simplest explanation is Dorion made a deal with Vegas, they offered Stone a fair contract and he took it.

If you have sources that say Stone turned down deals from NYI, Florida or Winnipeg then present them and I'll believe your theory.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

With responses like this I should consider another one.

And with responses like that you may need another one.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

On Friday, Sportsnet’s Jeff Marek asked Senators general manager Pierre Dorion about his captain being in Calgary and cheering his brother during the postseason, to which the GM offered a ridiculous answer after a long pause…


“Molson is a great sponsor of ours”.


Oh boy…

I agree with this fella; no one mentioned Budweiser... I guess Pierre <> Bud.

 

[branch]

Imagine trading Mika Zibanejad for Derrick Brassard…and tossing in a 2nd for good measure.

Yikes, what a disgusting trade

 

[Guess]

I recently read an article talking about the power struggle between Dorion and Mcguire. If it's true, holy crap the Sens really need to can this guy asap. Article is from Hockey buzz, though. Not sure if it's been posted here before:

HockeyBuzz.com - Kevin Francis - The real story behind the Pierre McGuire firing!

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

I recently read an article talking about the power struggle between Dorion and Mcguire. If it's true, holy crap the Sens really need to can this guy asap. Article is from Hockey buzz, though. Not sure if it's been posted here before:

HockeyBuzz.com - Kevin Francis - The real story behind the Pierre McGuire firing!

Kevin Francis is not a trustworthy source. Don’t read too much into it.

 

[Emerica]

Imagine trading Mika Zibanejad for Derrick Brassard…and tossing in a 2nd for good measure.

Yikes, what a disgusting trade

His first trade as Sens GM. Was a bad omen for sure

 

[Icelevel]

Imagine trading Mika Zibanejad for Derrick Brassard…and tossing in a 2nd for good measure.

Yikes, what a disgusting trade

I know it happened but I still can’t imagine anyone even considering making a trade like that. I’d love to see the discussions that took place leading up to it. I’d love to know who was on board with it.

 

[branch]

His first trade as Sens GM. Was a bad omen for sure

All the complaining around here about picking Lee over Kopitar in 2005 and we went right ahead and did it again

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

View attachment 555479


I agree with this fella; no one mentioned Budweiser... I guess Pierre <> Bud.

Sens Twitter exploding over this one. Toxicology tests are pending..

The best part is finally a Sens player for some money from a business at a national level. The local businesses of Ottawa do not give any sponsorship deals to players, at least in recent times which is another reason to sign elsewhere.

I was wondering if Molson called the Sens organization and asked why their captain is pushing Bud… and if there was a contractual deal with Molson that only allowed the team to endorse Molson - Coors products…doubtful, but that would be funny.

 

[Sweatred]

I think Vegas had the best offer because there is no evidence that Stone turned down deals from other teams.

If there was evidence of that happening, then I would revisit my position. Which is why I asked if you had a source for it.

Also not 100% clear on what you mean by "Stone would have gone anywhere he was traded"... do you mean sign an extension? Or invoke an NTC or NMC ?

I for sure believe that part of any deal made would be dependent on Stone signing an extension, and I believe that would only happen if Stone thought he was getting fair UFA market value.

Apply Occam's razor: the simplest explanation is Dorion made a deal with Vegas, they offered Stone a fair contract and he took it.

If you have sources that say Stone turned down deals from NYI, Florida or Winnipeg then present them and I'll believe your theory.

The NHL doesn’t report on NTC activations or player contract refusals… it’s foolish to apply your logic that you since you can’t prove they happen that they DONT occur.

Listen to Methot or any of the z players on media … they scoff at that type of stuff.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

View attachment 555479


I agree with this fella; no one mentioned Budweiser... I guess Pierre <> Bud.

Shit like this is the shining example of the annoying Sens fan. Dorion is a complete buffoon in interviews, but to see Sens Twitter fans nitpicking what was clearly a joke as a response to a very lighthearted question that has nothing to do with hockey is just plain stupid. Like pick your battles, when you whine about literally everything the man says, it's hard to take genuine complaints as seriously.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Is there any confirmation that he actually did do that prior to having the deal with VGK agreed to? The only thing I've seen is Lebrun stating that VGK offered him a deal 5 mins after Dorion had agreed to a trade and about 45 mins prior to the deadline, but vegas wasn't willing to finalize till a contract in principal was reached. Stone rejected Vegas' first offer, and it took 30 excruciating mins to hammer out something, with about 15 minutes or so to spare before the deadline

LeBrun: Behind the scenes of the Mark Stone trade and why the Preds had the best deadline day

Plus, how Micheal Ferland became an 'own rental' and why Wayne Simmonds is the perfect fit in Nashville.

theathletic.com

I seem to remember the team giving his camp permission, and I definitely remember the anger in this place about how we didn’t get a better an even better deal with an extension in place.

If I’m wrong on that I’ll totally stand corrected