Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Sweatred]

3 guesses lol. Anyway it appears that it is now Stone's fault for leading them on and that trusting Stone wanted to stay was the problem.
The biggest buffoon in the NHL has nothing to do with the debacle

That’s right .. it’s stone’s “fault” for signing the contract with the team he wanted to.

As hard as you Want to make it Dorion’s fault - the players sign the contracts they want to sign.

 

[Big Muddy]

That’s right .. it’s stone’s “fault” for signing the contract with the team he wanted to.

As hard as you Want to make it Dorion’s fault - the players sign the contracts they want to sign.

So, Dorion must have a passive role in all of this and just wait until Stone decides, versus being proactive and having a "strategy"?

Good grief.

 

[HSF]

That’s right .. it’s stone’s “fault” for signing the contract with the team he wanted to.

As hard as you Want to make it Dorion’s fault - the players sign the contracts they want to sign.

the manager should have seen it coming with the 1 year deal to UFA

you even agreed with that

 

[scallionjj11]

Can we retroactively fire Dorion for the debacle that is the Zibanejad trade? His very first trade might have been the absolute worst, and Zibanejad has turned into an absolute rock star

I remember when this trade happened and watched the Dorion press. He litterally said the trade talks started but him calling up the NYR gm and saying "looks like ottawa and New york have never made a trade, why won't we see what we can do"?

Not a exact quote, but something along those lines.

 

[Sweatred]

So, Dorion must have a passive role in all of this and just wait until Stone decides, versus being proactive and having a "strategy"?

Good grief.

Dorion could be a genius or an Idiot … but that doesn’t change Stone deciding to go where Stone wants to go… Stone doesn’t play for Dorion… he plays for himself, his family, his teammates etc.

Vegas has their own warts but obviously Stone thought the team, taxes, and weather was a good match for him.

the manager should have seen it coming with the 1 year deal to UFA

you even agreed with that

Yep - same as Fiala, Matthew etc. ultimately these guys can refuse to sign any contract … as fans we want the player signed so concessions like that get accepted hoping to work things out later … I guess Dorion could of made Stone sit out ? That’s doesn’t end well either …

In the end Stone went where he wanted to.

 

[Masked]

The moment Stone only agreed to sign for 1 year to walk him into UFA status the sens should have known. A lot of people here saw that as a huge red flag.

They should have started looking for trades then and there.

They should have traded him before he signed that one year deal. He was at his greatest value when he would have been able to be signed long term immediately with his new team.

If he wouldn't sign a long term deal, he should have been moved. Made no sense to keep him when you know the team wasn't going to compete unless Melnyk ordered Dorion to keep him around in a futile attempt to sell tickets.

Assen na yo!

 

[Tuna99]

the manager should have seen it coming with the 1 year deal to UFA

you even agreed with that

“Good trades don’t grow on trees”

They should have traded him before he signed that one year deal. He was at his greatest value when he would have been able to be signed long term immediately with his new team.

If he wouldn't sign a long term deal, he should have been moved. Made no sense to keep him when you know the team wasn't going to compete unless Melnyk ordered Dorion to keep him around in a futile attempt to sell tickets.

Assen na yo!

Crazy thing is the entire rebuild was decided the season before the summer Stone wouldn’t sign long term and Dorion still pretended he wanted to sign him long term and then said after he was traded it was the plan all along to trade him but somehow people in the fanbase think the GM got hoodwinked by a player they already decided they were going to trade.

See how it all comes together - it’s never his fault even though it’s his plan

His goal this year after 5 years of rebuilding is to “play meaningless games” which is like owning a restaurant and saying your goal after 5 years of empty nights is you want to serve some food people want to eat.

 

[Big Muddy]

Dorion could be a genius or an Idiot … but that doesn’t change Stone deciding to go where Stone wants to go…

Statement of the obvious but still doesn't explain or excuse what Dorion did. A GM is paid to have a strategy, be decisive and make good decisions that are best for the team.

Can you really not see what you are saying is lame and without merit?

 

[Burrowsaurus]

It’s wild that Pierre Dorion traded away Mika Zibanejad, Mark Stone and Matt Duchene and all he has to show for it is Brannstrom, Thomson and Luke Loheit.

The brain is big.

To be fair he has JBD and Gus to show for zibanejad as well.. technically.

 

[Xspyrit]

I’d package Zaitsev with the 7th overall if they move the whole salary. And get, like, a 5th back or something

That would be insanity.

NHL would fire Dorion THEMSELVES if that were to happen.

There's so many ways to dispose of Zaitsev... Buyout, AHL, buried as your 7th guy, trade for another overpaid guy, etc...

Your DESIRE to draft 7th overall has to be GREATER than dumping a 4.5 salary for the next 2 years.

This was scary, like Dorion scary

It’s wild that Pierre Dorion traded away Mika Zibanejad, Mark Stone and Matt Duchene and all he has to show for it is Brannstrom, Thomson and Luke Loheit.

The brain is big.

That's because you're undervaluing Luke Loheit big time. He's about to breakout...

And to be fair, there's also Egor Sokolov, JBD and Gustavsson in there

 

[Tap on the Ankle]

probably the most underrated bad Dorion move and my personal favourite was the Hoffman trade

to OTT -> Boedker, Bergman, 6th
to SJS -> Hoffman, Donaghey, 5th

Boedker was a complete bust, yet another failure of Sens pro scouting. The other guys in the deal were non-factors. Hoffman was effectively used to convert a 5th round pick into a 6th round pick.

But the story doesn't end there as San Jose immediately turns around and trades him to Florida

to SJS -> 2nd, 4th, 5th
to FLA -> Hoffman, 7th

so simplifying by removing the non-factors we get

OTT gives -> Hoffman, 5th
OTT gets -> 6th

SJS gives -> 6th, 7th
SJS gets -> 2nd, 4th, 5th, 5th

FLA gives -> 2nd, 4th, 5th
FLA gets -> Hoffman, 7th

 

[OD99]

Tavares , Piet, Hyman, etc

Right and they were all trying to win a Cup and made a decision.

GMPD walked himself there for no good reason.

 

[Sweatred]

Right and they were all trying to win a Cup and made a decision.

GMPD walked himself there for no good reason.

It happens all over the league with all teams … your’re trying to make something big out of modern nhl-UFA- cap reality. It’s amplified here becuase there is a net exodus of players leaving a high tax district with cold weather.

I get that it fits the anti Dorion narrative and currently may be the best thing we can complain about.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

That’s right .. it’s stone’s “fault” for signing the contract with the team he wanted to.

As hard as you Want to make it Dorion’s fault - the players sign the contracts they want to sign.

BUT.... you're asserting that Stone wasn't willing to accept a trade to anywhere but Vegas. Which is why I asked you whether you had a source for that, or were just inferring it happened.

Your logic is something like this:
- The return for Stone was bad
- Maybe Dorion had no other trading partners...
- Because Stone wouldnt sign anywhere else
- Which explains why the return for Stone was bad

Which is obviously flawed.

 

[Sweatred]

BUT.... you're asserting that Stone wasn't willing to accept a trade to anywhere but Vegas. Which is why I asked you whether you had a source for that, or were just inferring it happened.

Your logic is something like this:
- The return for Stone was bad
- Maybe Dorion had no other trading partners...
- Because Stone wouldnt sign anywhere else
- Which explains why the return for Stone was bad

Which is obviously flawed.

How so? How would you have orchestrated a better offer. Everything ends with … no I won’t sign that.

I think the deal was fine … Brann has been slow to take off .. but it’s not like glass is any better.

Another year or so and most will agree that they’d prefer Brann over $9.5 Stone going forward anyway.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

How so? How would you have engendered a better offer.

I think the deal was fine … Brann has been slow to take off .. but it’s not like glass is any better.

If you think the deal was fine, then why is it even relevant that Stone would only sign with Vegas?

I think the most likely way it played out is:
- Dorion spoke to multiple teams, negotiated to the point where he had the best offer from each of them "assuming Stone was signed to an extension"
- He chose the best offer -- ie Vegas -- and asked Stone's agent to negotiate an extension with them
- When Vegas and Stone agreed on a contract, Dorion pulled the trigger on the deal

So the problem here -- if you're a Dorion hater (and I am) -- is that you can ask the question "Really? He really evaluated Brannstrom as the best prospect out of everything that was offered?"

You're trying to spin it that Dorion had no leverage in the trade, as opposed to just admitting that he evaluated the prospect poorly . Which is supposed to be his strength.

 

[Micklebot]

BUT.... you're asserting that Stone wasn't willing to accept a trade to anywhere but Vegas. Which is why I asked you whether you had a source for that, or were just inferring it happened.

Your logic is something like this:
- The return for Stone was bad
- Maybe Dorion had no other trading partners...
- Because Stone wouldnt sign anywhere else
- Which explains why the return for Stone was bad

Which is obviously flawed.

We know he had other trading parters, NYI, Florida, and Winnipeg all made offers. Winnipeg opted for Hayes as a rental and gave up 20OA and Lemieux (presumably they'd offer a bit more for Stone), NYI were offering 23rd OA and Beauvillier apparently as a rental offer, Talon felt he offered a comparable offer and expected to be able to re-sign Stone, we just liked the VGK one better. Calgary was apparently interested too but didn't want to give up Andersson or Valimaki.

 

[Sweatred]

If you think the deal was fine, then why is it even relevant that Stone would only sign with Vegas?

I think the most likely way it played out is:
- Dorion spoke to multiple teams, negotiated to the point where he had the best offer from each of them "assuming Stone was signed to an extension"
- He chose the best offer -- ie Vegas -- and asked Stone's agent to negotiate an extension with them
- When Vegas and Stone agreed on a contract, Dorion pulled the trigger on the deal

So the problem here -- if you're a Dorion hater (and I am) -- is that you can ask the question "Really? He really evaluated Brannstrom as the best prospect out of everything that was offered?"

You're trying to spin it that Dorion had no leverage in the trade, as opposed to just admitting that he evaluated the prospect poorly . Which is supposed to be his strength.

What makes you think Vegas had the best offer ? Are you trying to suggest Stone would have gone anywhere he was traded ? (Extended or not) ?

We will see the same thing with Matthew and Fiala … they will only go where they are willing to extend…. Unless of course someone values them for one season or playoff run.

 

[Ice-Tray]

3 guesses lol. Anyway it appears that it is now Stone's fault for leading them on and that trusting Stone wanted to stay was the problem.
The biggest buffoon in the NHL has nothing to do with the debacle

If you’re referring to my original opinion, I don’t think anyone is to blame, beyond Dorion for making a mistake.

Stone, Duchene, Tavares, do what players always do, they say all the right things so that they aren’t looked at by the fanbase as the bad guy.

You do the opposite and the fanbase takes it personally as expected.

Dorion thought he had a chance to sign both guys well past the time when he should have set a time limit, though at least he traded them, while the players were simply doing what they always do.

In the end Dorion waited way to long, hope the lesson was learned, and Stone ended up where he wanted with a massive extension.

Stone is not to blame for his agent doing why was best for him, and getting him the ideal trade and extension, there is no blame to place on that said.

Having said that, I think we can all stop pretending that he wanted to stay through the rebuild and that it came down to Ottawa just not offering a good enough contract.

Gotta trade players in this situation in the off season if they won’t sign, most folks in here came to that conclusion a long time ago, and I think they’re right.

 

[aragorn]

Hearing lots of noise from Sens front office that top 4 Defenceman and top 6 forwards “don’t grow on trees”

They must grow somewhere ..... but where ??????? Oh, the draft, Nemec RD & Jiricek RD & all kinds of forwards, it's picking the right ones that's the problem. Of the four teams left in the SC finals how many times has those teams won the lottery?

 

[OD99]

It happens all over the league with all teams … your’re trying to make something big out of modern nhl-UFA- cap reality. It’s amplified here becuase there is a net exodus of players leaving a high tax district with cold weather.

I get that it fits the anti Dorion narrative and currently may be the best thing we can complain about.

No, it really doesn't. You haven't offered up a good comparable yet. Good players get kept on good teams when they are hoping to win a Cup.

Imagine the Blues trading Piet at the deadline before they won the Cup. First, their fans would have revolted and they wouldn't have won the Cup.

Same for Hyman or Isles. Even Isles were a different story with Tavares being far more entrenched and by accounts did lead them to believe he would stay.

I highly doubt the Isles would have signed him to a 1 year deal walking him to FA and then have him play the entire season.

Blah, blah, high taxes and cold weather. The org was a shambles and after getting rid of all our star players were still near the cellar with no success on the horizon. That is why Stone wanted out - zero belief in the org from the top down.

GMPD played himself as usual and turned a highly coveted, incredibly valuable asset into a return everyone in the league knew was underwhelming.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Here's an article on the trade, not sure how reputable it is as it seems to blend opinion and facts but it does quote some reputable sources. If you take it as true, Stone did not dictate the destination, we just chose the VGK offer over a couple others after some of the big players dropped out weakening our position; we overplayed our hand until it was too late

Monday's Mark Stone Trade: What We Didn't Know - The Hockey Writers Ottawa Senators Latest News, Analysis & More

On the surface, the deal between the Ottawa Senators, Mark Stone and Vegas Golden Knights seemed simple, it was anything but. Here's what you didn't know.

thehockeywriters.com

To be fair, that was mostly one persons interpretation, but they post a lot, so it takes on a life of its own.

I would think most realize it wasn't as simple as Mark forcing his way to his one and only destination.

 

[Sweatred]

No, it really doesn't. You haven't offered up a good comparable yet. Good players get kept on good teams when they are hoping to win a Cup.

Imagine the Blues trading Piet at the deadline before they won the Cup. First, their fans would have revolted and they wouldn't have won the Cup.

Same for Hyman or Isles. Even Isles were a different story with Tavares being far more entrenched and by accounts did lead them to believe he would stay.

I highly doubt the Isles would have signed him to a 1 year deal walking him to FA and then have him play the entire season.

Blah, blah, high taxes and cold weather. The org was a shambles and after getting rid of all our star players were still near the cellar with no success on the horizon. That is why Stone wanted out - zero belief in the org from the top down.

GMPD played himself as usual and turned a highly coveted, incredibly valuable asset into a return everyone in the league knew was underwhelming.

I don’t get your point - Those teams lost massive chunks of talent. If their GM’s were so “great” they should have magically extended them before they left via UFA.

Hyman and Piet would look good on their old clubs now … how foolish…

 

[Sweatred]

To be fair, that was mostly one persons interpretation, but they post a lot, so it takes on a life of its own.

I would think most realize it wasn't as simple as Mark forcing his way to his one and only destination.

Ya - most here will agree with you. you will get lots of confirmation around here with anything related to “Dorion’s and Idiot” or “I’m smarter than the GM”.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Oh you will get lots of confirmation around here with anything related to “Dorion’s and Idiot” or “I’m smarter than the GM”.

Great. Let me know when I've said something like that.