Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Respectfully, I disagree. If we're being honest, they were doing nothing before and they still continue to do nothing now. Changing your profile picture or logo is still doing nothing. It's not a step in the right direction because there's nothing about it that you could say is helping anyone. A community of marginalized people who continue to experience discrimination, hate and are always fighting for their rights need something more tangible than a colourful logo on a Twitter account they most likely don't follow.

I understand why some would think it's "something" but it really isn't unless someone could explain what measurable progress is associated with this action.

Did you by chance see the story about EA sports' handling of pride day?

It sort of aligns with your feelings about this. They're a well known toxic company and big time GOP donors. They intended to change their logo to the pride colors on pride day. Their employees then threatened a walkout and they basically settled on agreeing not to do the walk in exchange for EA agreeing not to change colors on their logo. The employees would literally rather them do nothing than put up some bs façade as if they're progressive and get credit for it.

It's a good example of a company trying to play both sides of the coin for their own benefit, but nothing else and not at all about honoring the cause.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

Zibanejad is the only one that we should have expected more for. Teams just don't trade big packages for UFA rentals. Stone and Duchene both dictated their destinies. We could start the whole debate again over whether we should have traded them earlier in the season but I really think they tried hard to get them on fair contracts and as far as we know they made good offers to both guys. I honestly don't believe the rebuild plan involved trading Stone and Duchene or, at the least, not both.

I disagree. UFA rentals regularly get multiple 1st round caliber assets. Stone, with an extension in place, should have garnered more than he did. Brannstrom could still turn into a very good player but the return was underwhelming.

Duchene was not far off but still should have included a better prospect with the 1st rounder.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I disagree. UFA rentals regularly get multiple 1st round caliber assets. Stone, with an extension in place, should have garnered more than he did. Brannstrom could still turn into a very good player but the return was underwhelming.

Duchene was not far off but still should have included a better prospect with the 1st rounder.

Should have says you! We all would have loved more, as would the GM, but better deals were obviously not on the table that year.

In truth Stone leveraged the offers from the team to get a better deal in place for himself with Vegas, told PD that he was considering his offers right to the last minute. By the time it became clear that Stone would only sign a deal with Vegas, there was no one else to compete for the price. Everyone else was looking at a one and done from Stone. Branstrom was regarded as a top prospect at the time as well it should be remembered.

As most people have said, and hopefully what our GM learned, is that you trade him as soon as he won’t accept an extension in the off season, no matter what platitudes are delivered.

That goes for Duchene as well. He also said all the right things all year, but it was the leagues worst kept secret that the only place he wanted to play was in Nashville, and he was going to walk himself there. Hard to get premium value when a team knows that he won’t be extending with them.

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

In truth Stone leveraged the offers from the team to get a better deal in place for himself with Vegas, told PD that he was considering his offers right to the last minute. By the time it became clear that Stone would only sign a deal with Vegas, there was no one else to compete for the price. Everyone else was looking at a one and done from Stone. Branstrom was regarded as a top prospect at the time as well it should be remembered.

Is there anything to support this, or is this opinion? Don't recall anything like this being made public at the time.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Is there anything to support this, or is this opinion? Don't recall anything like this being made public at the time.

Seems like one of those things that's been repeated enough to be carried forward by others, but I've still never seen anything other than comments here alluding to this. I'm also curious if there's anything concrete on this or even an insider alluding to it. I recall nothing of the sort.

 

[Knave]

Is there anything to support this, or is this opinion? Don't recall anything like this being made public at the time.

A sermon at the Church of Dorion titled "Not My Fault"

 

[Alf Silfversson]

Should have says you! We all would have loved more, as would the GM, but better deals were obviously not on the table that year.

In truth Stone leveraged the offers from the team to get a better deal in place for himself with Vegas, told PD that he was considering his offers right to the last minute. By the time it became clear that Stone would only sign a deal with Vegas, there was no one else to compete for the price. Everyone else was looking at a one and done from Stone. Branstrom was regarded as a top prospect at the time as well it should be remembered.

As most people have said, and hopefully what our GM learned, is that you trade him as soon as he won’t accept an extension in the off season, no matter what platitudes are delivered.

That goes for Duchene as well. He also said all the right things all year, but it was the leagues worst kept secret that the only place he wanted to play was in Nashville, and he was going to walk himself there. Hard to get premium value when a team knows that he won’t be extending with them.

But isn't it the GM's job to not get put in compromising positions by players? Seems like Sports Management 101 to me. Dorion was, or at least should have been, in complete control of the situation. He either wasn't in control of the situation or he botched the whole thing. Pro sports is a multi-billion dollar, cutthroat business.

Our GM got played that day and that is on him.

Is there anything to support this, or is this opinion? Don't recall anything like this being made public at the time.

AFAIK there is no definitive proof of this. It's just as likely Dorion just kept pushing for an extension until it was too late, thinking that he could change Stone's mind.

 

[lancepitlick]

Getting backed into a corner isn't circumstance it is bad GMing.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Is there anything to support this, or is this opinion? Don't recall anything like this being made public at the time.

Just my opinion, putting two and two together.

Stone’s camp was alledgedly considering the team’s offers right up to the end, or so they said. In the end Vegas stepped up with a huge contract offer to seal the deal.

It was a super weird situation where it was almost like Stone was a UFA and the Sens and Knights were the suitors making contract offers for Stone to consider.

When Stone finally chose the Vegas offer and informed the team, then Dorion was stuck having to make the trade with Vegas for what he could get. It was too late to go to other teams and expect better, and Stone had already decided where he wanted to extend. Thankfully Vegas stuck to the previously agreed upon deal.

The part that I’m adding is that I don’t think Stone’s camp was ever considering taking the Sens offers, but it makes good sense to use those offers and the spectre of signing one, to get Vegas to anti up.

His comments after the fact support the idea that he wanted to win now and didn’t want to stick around for a rebuild. I don’t begrudge his camp for leveraging the situation at all. I do hope Pierre learned an important lesson about when trades of this magnitude need to happen, and not to let situations like this ever reach the regular season of their last year.

I understand that it is possible that Stone was just super indecisive right up until the final moments, and Vegas offered up a massive extension on their own just to ease the decision, I just think that that is a bit naive when there are professional negotiators at play.

But isn't it the GM's job to not get put in compromising positions by players? Seems like Sports Management 101 to me. Dorion was, or at least should have been, in complete control of the situation. He either wasn't in control of the situation or he botched the whole thing. Pro sports is a multi-billion dollar, cutthroat business.

Our GM got played that day and that is on him.



AFAIK there is no definitive proof of this. It's just as likely Dorion just kept pushing for an extension until it was too late, thinking that he could change Stone's mind.

Absolutely!!

That’s why I think Pierre took a much different approach with Oster when it came to Brady. Like a fool me once situation because he was schooled with the Stone situation.

 

[Ice-Tray]

But isn't it the GM's job to not get put in compromising positions by players? Seems like Sports Management 101 to me. Dorion was, or at least should have been, in complete control of the situation. He either wasn't in control of the situation or he botched the whole thing. Pro sports is a multi-billion dollar, cutthroat business.

Our GM got played that day and that is on him.



AFAIK there is no definitive proof of this. It's just as likely Dorion just kept pushing for an extension until it was too late, thinking that he could change Stone's mind.

It was widely reported that Stones camp kept negotiations alive until the final moments where his camp made their decision. PD held on because he thought there was still a good chance to sign Stone.

I’m not really sure why this is such a revelation here. Dorion got schooled by Oster, strung along like the Tavares situation amongst others until he had to take what was offers last minute.

Hopefully he has learned, he certainly looks like he handles negotiations differently, ndas a bonus it looks like he has a good relationship with Oster now.

Getting backed into a corner isn't circumstance it is bad GMing.

Rookie move, I agree. He let sentiment string him along all season, basically letting Stones camp run the show.

What he should have obviously done is set a limit as to when an extension needed to be done, and once that passed, put Stone on he market.

Live and learn hopefully.

 

[Micklebot]

Here's an article on the trade, not sure how reputable it is as it seems to blend opinion and facts but it does quote some reputable sources. If you take it as true, Stone did not dictate the destination, we just chose the VGK offer over a couple others after some of the big players dropped out weakening our position; we overplayed our hand until it was too late

Monday's Mark Stone Trade: What We Didn't Know - The Hockey Writers Ottawa Senators Latest News, Analysis & More

On the surface, the deal between the Ottawa Senators, Mark Stone and Vegas Golden Knights seemed simple, it was anything but. Here's what you didn't know.

thehockeywriters.com

 

[Sweatred]

It was widely reported that Stones camp kept negotiations alive until the final moments where his camp made their decision. PD held on because he thought there was still a good chance to sign Stone.

I’m not really sure why this is such a revelation here. Dorion got schooled by Oster, strung along like the Tavares situation amongst others until he had to take what was offers last minute.

Hopefully he has learned, he certainly looks like he handles negotiations differently, ndas a bonus it looks like he has a good relationship with Oster now.


Rookie move, I agree. He let sentiment string him along all season, basically letting Stones camp run the show.

What he should have obviously done is set a limit as to when an extension needed to be done, and once that passed, put Stone on he market.

Live and learn hopefully.

Cleary Stone dictated his destination late in the process. After dragging everyone along and “keeping options open” he Ultimately made it clear he wasn’t going to extend in DAL or NYI or wherever effectively choosing Vegas as his trade destination.

Vegas probably new there was no real competition at that point but they still needed a piece for the playoffs and ultimately had enough motivation to pay Brann+.

 

[Tuna99]

Hearing lots of noise from Sens front office that top 4 Defenceman and top 6 forwards “don’t grow on trees”

 

[Tuna99]

Getting backed into a corner isn't circumstance it is bad GMing.

Dorion has just made so many bad decisions and that’s why Ottawa is so bad on the ice. Many fans have bought into the idea that Ottawa being this bad is part of a larger plan - in truth we are bad because Dorion makes many many bad decisions year over year and that’s the end of the discussion of why Ottawa is a basement team

You look at good teams like Tampa and they make good decisions at the deadline, with Cap, drafting and they are good. Ottawa makes bad acquisitions, treats their lead goalies like a nuisance, sign their Captain 3 weeks late, let good player leave without compensation, manage the cap poorly, bring in so many bad veterans - we aren’t bad by intelligent design we are bad by stupid decision design.

 

[Sweatred]

Getting backed into a corner isn't circumstance it is bad GMing.

Naa… most GM’s get backed into corners via UFA …

We’ve watched New York, St Louis and Toronto lose guys, even Calgary and Minny are backed up against impending UFA a year away … it is a GM thing.

 

[Sens Vader]

Hearing lots of noise from Sens front office that top 4 Defenceman and top 6 forwards “don’t grow on trees”

Dorion is a PR nightmare, and that’s on top of how horrible he is at asset management.

With a team needing to sell tickets it’s laughable they have him as the figure head of the organization. Couldn’t sell water to a man in the desert.

Like if you are already pathetic at your job, at least have a vocabulary above a 5th grade level.

Needs to be fired asap

 

[Big Muddy]

Is there anything to support this, or is this opinion? Don't recall anything like this being made public at the time.

A cash strapped team that depends on low cost talent (ELCs, RFAs, etc.) might want to set a hard deadline maybe? I'm trying to figure out whose job it is to do these kind of things LOL.

 

[OD99]

Naa… most GM’s get backed into corners via UFA …

We’ve watched New York, St Louis and Toronto lose guys, even Calgary and Minny are backed up against impending UFA a year away … it is a GM thing.

Who have they lost?

Mostly it is by design as those teams are up to the cap and trying to win a Cup so they knowingly have UFA on roster.

Let's see what happens with Calgary and Minny.

 

[Tuna99]

Dorion is a PR nightmare, and that’s on top of how horrible he is at asset management.

With a team needing to sell tickets it’s laughable they have him as the figure head of the organization. Couldn’t sell water to a man in the desert.

Like if you are already pathetic at your job, at least have a vocabulary above a 5th grade level.

Needs to be fired asap

Builds the worst defensive team in the NHL for 7 years as GM then says 7 years later “Top 4 Dman don’t grow on trees”

Even after he had Zub drops into his lap Dorion didn’t even recognize Zub as a top 4 Dman because he benched him for the first 9 games 3 months after he said he traded Demelo because Zub was going to replace him in the top 4.

It’s the worst NHL management in the world, but the Sens sell it as a genius master plan and act they are going to sneak up on the Cup and win it

 

[Sweatred]

Who have they lost?

Mostly it is by design as those teams are up to the cap and trying to win a Cup so they knowingly have UFA on roster.

Let's see what happens with Calgary and Minny.

Tavares , Piet, Hyman, etc

 

[HSF]

It was widely reported that Stones camp kept negotiations alive until the final moments where his camp made their decision. PD held on because he thought there was still a good chance to sign Stone.

I’m not really sure why this is such a revelation here. Dorion got schooled by Oster, strung along like the Tavares situation amongst others until he had to take what was offers last minute.

Hopefully he has learned, he certainly looks like he handles negotiations differently, ndas a bonus it looks like he has a good relationship with Oster now.


Rookie move, I agree. He let sentiment string him along all season, basically letting Stones camp run the show.

What he should have obviously done is set a limit as to when an extension needed to be done, and once that passed, put Stone on he market.

Live and learn hopefully.

The moment Stone only agreed to sign for 1 year to walk him into UFA status the sens should have known. A lot of people here saw that as a huge red flag.

They should have started looking for trades then and there.

 

[Sweatred]

The moment Stone only agreed to sign for 1 year to walk him into UFA status the sens should have known. A lot of people here saw that as a huge red flag.

They should have started looking for trades then and there.

Yea … they got burned trusting that Stone wanted to stay around. Lesson learned.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

No human alive makes that deal that has any idea what they are doing. Why does everyone want to trade 7th OA so badly? I took a break from this board and have come back to some of the most insane posts. The team was 30 points out of the playoffs you dont trade top 10 picks when you are that far out.


The leafs traded the 13th OA pick before the season started when they thought they were a contender. To be cap compliant.... The sens have 20 million in cap space. They are not a contender and this is the 7th OA pick. Good grief.

How long was your break 45 minutes?

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

Cleary Stone dictated his destination late in the process. After dragging everyone along and “keeping options open” he Ultimately made it clear he wasn’t going to extend in DAL or NYI or wherever effectively choosing Vegas as his trade destination.

Vegas probably new there was no real competition at that point but they still needed a piece for the playoffs and ultimately had enough motivation to pay Brann+.

Do you have a source for the bolded? Or are you just inferring it from what happened?

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Do you have a source for the bolded? Or are you just inferring it from what happened?

3 guesses lol. Anyway it appears that it is now Stone's fault for leading them on and that trusting Stone wanted to stay was the problem.
The biggest buffoon in the NHL has nothing to do with the debacle