Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[DaveMatthew]

Ben Roger, the team's 2nd round pick in 2021, will not be offered a contract.

Matthew Knies was taken 8 picks later.

Carson Latimer and Chandler Romeo will also not be signed.

So that's a wasted 2nd, 4th and 7th. In one draft!

The 2021 draft for Ottawa is now just Tyler Boucher, Zack Ostapchuk and Oliver Johansson. After a season where we finished 23rd in the league.

 

[Loach]

Ben Roger, the team's 2nd round pick in 2021, will not be offered a contract.

Matthew Knies was taken 8 picks later.

Carson Latimer and Chandler Romeo will also not be signed.

So that's a wasted 2nd, 4th and 7th. In one draft!

The 2021 draft for Ottawa is now just Tyler Boucher, Zack Ostapchuk and Oliver Johansson. After a season where we finished 23rd in the league.

Here's hoping Ostapchuk is Mark Stone 2.0

 

[Samsquanch]

It's not Dorion's fault Karlsson wanted out, which is what likely prompted Stone and Duchene to want out, as they wouldn't want to spend the prime of their careers on a bottom feeder.

What he can be blamed for is the poor returns for most of the players he traded during the rebuild.

Somebody better tell @Loach that then

...but 1 thing happened, in real life.....the other is what you are making up...I mean talking about.

LMFAO what happened in real life again???? Can you remind us all.

Your hypothetical situation involved Melnyk coming back from the dead to confess that he tore apart a team that secretly wanted to stay together.......Lol.

Mine echoed the thoughts of literally everyone out there thats connected to the team, like Methot (who was actually on the team lol), who said that both Karl and Stone didnt want to sign here. Thats not on Dorion if true. Whos right, you or Methot?

Give your head a shake and come back to reality please.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Ben Roger, the team's 2nd round pick in 2021, will not be offered a contract.

Matthew Knies was taken 8 picks later.

Carson Latimer and Chandler Romeo will also not be signed.

So that's a wasted 2nd, 4th and 7th. In one draft!

The 2021 draft for Ottawa is now just Tyler Boucher, Zack Ostapchuk and Oliver Johansson. After a season where we finished 23rd in the league.

Certainly, we should hope to have had better results - and from every draft year, for that matter - but to put it in context, 13 1st round picks have played at least 1 game, 4 2nd round picks and 1 3rd round pick.

Compared to the 2020 draft, with 50 players who have played at least 1 game, including 25 1st round picks and 25 2nd-7th round picks.

We might see that gap shrink a little bit this year but I think it's pretty obvious there were some issues with the 2021 draft due to covid. So, in the larger context, there's still time to see some returns on our draft picks. And, separately, criticizing a "wasted" 7th round pick? Really?

 

[Loach]

Somebody better tell @Loach that then



LMFAO what happened in real life agian???? Can you remind us all.

Your hypothetical situation involved Melnyk coming back from the dead to confess that he tore apart a team that wanted to stay together.......Lol.

Mine echoed the thoughts of literally everyone out there thats connected to the team, like Methot (who was actually on the team lol), who said that both Karl and Stone didnt want to sign here. Thats not on Dorion if true. Whos right, you or Methot?

Give your head a shake and come back to reality please.

Players were traded because of Melnyk. Ask Turris if you want. Be it money or the way he acted...it was him. Keep on trucking though.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Certainly, we should hope to have had better results - and from every draft year, for that matter - but to put it in context, 13 1st round picks have played at least 1 game, 4 2nd round picks and 1 3rd round pick.

Compared to the 2020 draft, with 50 players who have played at least 1 game, including 25 1st round picks and 25 2nd-7th round picks.

We might see that gap shrink a little bit this year but I think it's pretty obvious there were some issues with the 2021 draft due to covid. So, in the larger context, there's still time to see some returns on our draft picks. And, separately, criticizing a "wasted" 7th round pick? Really?

It was wasted, no? The player drafted was not offered a contract and was never part of the organization. I think that's the definition of wasted.

2021 was later than 2020, so there's obviously fewer players who have played NHL games. Way too early to say it was a bad draft because of COVID.

And with the Boucher and Roger picks specifically – they were widely panned on draft day, and they only look worse now.

Mann fumbled the ball.

 

[Samsquanch]

Those players didn't want to be here, Dorion is a great gm blah, blah, blah" It's truly facinating to watch.

Players were traded because of Melnyk. Ask Turris if you want. Be it money or the way he acted...it was him. Keep on trucking though.

keep on moving the goal posts you hack

 

[Loach]

keep on moving the goal posts you hack

I think you missed the whole point of the original post. I was wondering who would bite. Who wouldn't be able to stop themselves from jumping to defend the honour of EM and Dorion. I'm so glad it's you. We are besties now. Mimossas and listen to vintage Drake later? Or beer and darts?

 

[DaveMatthew]

Mine echoed the thoughts of literally everyone out there thats connected to the team, like Methot (who was actually on the team lol), who said that both Karl and Stone didnt want to sign here. Thats not on Dorion if true. Whos right, you or Methot?

Could it be, though, that perhaps Stone and Karlsson didn't want to sign here because (or partially because) they didn't have any faith that Melnyk and Dorion would ever put together a winning team and did not want to play for an organization run by them?

Perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Maybe they didn't want to sign here. Maybe one of the reasons was that Melnyk and Dorion were here. Maybe another one was that Ottawa is cold and Sparks Street sucks.

 

[Samsquanch]

I think you missed the whole point of the original post. I was wondering who would bite. Who wouldn't be able to stop themselves from jumping to defend the honour of EM and Dorion. I'm so glad it's you. We are besties now. Mimossas and listen to vintage Drake later? Or beer and darts?

And I think you missed the whole point of my original reply.... considering your nonsensical response to it....

Im not defending the honor of anyone. EM is a PoS, and Dorion is a mixed bag full of results. Some of them I really like. Some of them not so much. f***ing sue me I guess LOL?

But I cant help but laugh that they are still living rent free in the thick heads of some people out there. Must suck tbh.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Could it be, though, that perhaps Stone and Karlsson didn't want to sign here because (or partially because) they didn't have any faith that Melnyk and Dorion would ever put together a winning team and did not want to play for an organization run by them?

Perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Maybe they didn't want to sign here. Maybe one of the reasons was that Melnyk and Dorion were here. Maybe another one was that Ottawa is cold and Sparks Street sucks.

I'm surprised this even needs to be said.

 

[Samsquanch]

Could it be, though, that perhaps Stone and Karlsson didn't want to sign here because (or partially because) they didn't have any faith that Melnyk and Dorion would ever put together a winning team and did not want to play for an organization run by them?

Perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Maybe they didn't want to sign here. Maybe one of the reasons was that Melnyk and Dorion were here. Maybe another one was that Ottawa is cold and Sparks Street sucks.

Yes agreed 100%. Thats a logical thought process I can get behind.

 

[Loach]

And I think you missed the whole point of my original reply.... considering your nonsensical response to it.

Im not defending the honor of anyone. EM is a PoS, and Dorion is a mixed bag full of results. Some of them I really like. Some of them not so much. f***ing sue me I guess LOL?

But I cant help but laugh that they are still living rent free in the thick heads of some people out there. Must suck tbh.

Must suck to be you then.

 

[Samsquanch]

Must suck to be you then.

Damn good one . So clever.

 

[BankStreetParade]

It was wasted, no? The player drafted was not offered a contract and was never part of the organization. I think that's the definition of wasted.

2021 was later than 2020, so there's obviously fewer players who have played NHL games. Way too early to say it was a bad draft because of COVID.

And with the Boucher and Roger picks specifically – they were widely panned on draft day, and they only look worse now.

Mann fumbled the ball.

Well, it's a 7th round pick. What exactly were you expecting? Calling it a wasted pick is like being upset that you didn't hit the bullseye on a dartboard while you were blindfolded. Could you have hit it? Of course, anything is possible. Is it likely you would have? Obviously not. It's a super low value pick, analogous to meaningless. It seems like your unreasonable level of expectation is actually the culprit here if you think a hail mary pick not being offered a contract is a waste. Such a bizarre term to use. Is every 7th round pick with no success a waste too?

Anyway, we can disagree on 2021 being a bad draft and you can say Roger was a bad pick because [insert player who went x amount of spots after him] is emerging as a better player. That kind of hindsight thought exercise is not something I enjoy. Like, where does it end? You know what, we got Pageau at 96 in 2011 BUUUUUUT at 104 Johnny Gaudreau was picked. Or in 2014 we took Miles Gendron (who???) at #70 but why didn't we take Point, who went at 79? Hell, why didn't any of the teams between us and Tampa take Point? Why was he even a 3rd round pick to begin with? Isn't hindsight fun?

Yes, they should have performed better but this isn't a math competition.

 

[Loach]

Well, it's a 7th round pick. What exactly were you expecting? Calling it a wasted pick is like being upset that you didn't hit the bullseye on a dartboard while you were blindfolded. Could you have hit it? Of course, anything is possible. Is it likely you would have? Obviously not. It's a super low value pick, analogous to meaningless. It seems like your unreasonable level of expectation is actually the culprit here if you think a hail mary pick not being offered a contract is a waste. Such a bizarre term to use. Is every 7th round pick with no success a waste too?

Anyway, we can disagree on 2021 being a bad draft and you can say Roger was a bad pick because [insert player who went x amount of spots after him] is emerging as a better player. That kind of hindsight thought exercise is not something I enjoy. Like, where does it end? You know what, we got Pageau at 96 in 2011 BUUUUUUT at 104 Johnny Gaudreau was picked. Or in 2014 we took Miles Gendron (who???) at #70 but why didn't we take Point, who went at 79? Hell, why didn't any of the teams between us and Tampa take Point? Why was he even a 3rd round pick to begin with? Isn't hindsight fun?

Yes, they should have performed better but this isn't a math competition.

This is the covid draft. I wrote it off before it even took place. Lol. Too many unknowns. Be nice if Ostapchuk turns out. He seems to have good vibes....and it will make Aragorn happy. A happy Aragorn is a happy HFSens. Hehehe.

 

[BrawlFan]

I'm definitely on board with Dorion staying GM. I don't think people who are this critical of him are like us old timer sens fans and remember what its like to watch all the stars get traded. Dorion worked under the absolute worst owner of an NHL franchise post-lockout. Whether you beleive him or you dont regarding Stone its clear Stone doesnt have any affection left for Ottawa. Even EK65 does and he was far more popular than Stone at their peaks.

I am definitely not seeing the affection for Dubas. I dont recognize the usernames of a lot of people who seem to love him but the man is absolute trash. So not sure if you guys realize what Dorion has had in terms of resources vs Dubas. I'd rather watch Dorion get those resources and see what he can do.

Drafting: Dorion is better. Guys gave him a lot of shit for Boucher but Boucher is gonna be a beast. If he can stay healthy. Plus players immediatel following that selection? Yeah I'll take my chances with Boucher. He looked good at the WJHC. And you cant teach mean. I'd rather have him on my 3rd line playing Florida than anyone else picked after him in the first round.
Trades: Dorions better (Mrazek vs Murray trades for both. Foligno trade. Jake McCabe LOL. Marleau trade... countless more) Cmon guys. Think about it. This guy had nothing but resources. Toronto is the Yankees of hockey. Most powerful and wealthy team in the league. And he created a top pairing of Reilly-Brodie for his tenure.
FA Signings: even. Cant compare Toronto vs Ottawa on its own let alone the success of the team. Toronto is an infinitely better spot to play than Ottawa when it comes to excitement. Dorion did well given his limitations (city and rebuilding team).
Pro-Scouting: Dubas

So one area he outright beats him. I am not replacing the guy who traded Murray for the guy who traded for Murray. Don't forget that Dubas signed Mrazek too and paid more to offload him.

Dubas fanboys are getting out of hand.

 

[Beech]

........

Anyway, we can disagree on 2021 being a bad draft and you can say Roger was a bad pick because [insert player who went x amount of spots after him] is emerging as a better player. That kind of hindsight thought exercise is not something I enjoy. Like, where does it end? You know what, we got Pageau at 96 in 2011 BUUUUUUT at 104 Johnny Gaudreau was picked. Or in 2014 we took Miles Gendron (who???) at #70 but why didn't we take Point, who went at 79? Hell, why didn't any of the teams between us and Tampa take Point? Why was he even a 3rd round pick to begin with? Isn't hindsight fun?

Yes, they should have performed better but this isn't a math competition.

as you describe and to analyze on singular spots is incorrect and criticism in that area is wrong

The issue with this team has been, HOLES. When you see 2-3 players before their pick and 2-3 player after their pick succeed. Especially in rounds 1 and 2 when you expect your elite talent to come from.

There will be only way to judge their work as it applies to the 2021 draft.. did their picks become holes, or peaks (high points relative to their competitors) or neither; flat spots where they either failed or succeeded as those before them or after them.

That is 3 years away.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Looks like Dorion and DJ will survive and get yet another off-season due to the sale taking way too long.

Re-capping Dorion's luck:

- does a great job as head scout, gets promoted to AGM behind Bryan Murray (GM) and Tim Murray (heir apparent)
- Tim decides to leave and take the Buffalo GM job since Bryan doesn't want to retire anytime soon
- Bryan becomes ill and has to step down, tragically passing away later
- Dorion becomes GM of the team after only 2.5 years in the AGM role
- The team Bryan built makes it to the ECF in Dorion's first year in the role
- Melnyk decides to get perpetually drunk in Bert's down in Barbados, stops caring about the team
- Despite making bad moves and the team falling apart under his watch, Dorion stays on as GM
- For some reason Dorion gets to rebuild the team he helped turned into a bottom feeder
- Melnyk becomes ill, doesn't want to make any changes in his state
- He then passes away, team is run by a Board of Directors that can't/won't fire the GM until a sale
- Sale process keeps getting extended, just enough to ensure Dorion gets another off-season before new ownership can take over

Absolutely unreal. Dude fell ass backwards into the role, failed at every turn, and after 7-8 years he's still calling the shots

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Ben Roger, the team's 2nd round pick in 2021, will not be offered a contract.

Matthew Knies was taken 8 picks later.

Carson Latimer and Chandler Romeo will also not be signed.

So that's a wasted 2nd, 4th and 7th. In one draft!

The 2021 draft for Ottawa is now just Tyler Boucher, Zack Ostapchuk and Oliver Johansson. After a season where we finished 23rd in the league.

 

[Knave]

I'm definitely on board with Dorion staying GM. I don't think people who are this critical of him are like us old timer sens fans and remember what its like to watch all the stars get traded. Dorion worked under the absolute worst owner of an NHL franchise post-lockout. Whether you beleive him or you dont regarding Stone its clear Stone doesnt have any affection left for Ottawa. Even EK65 does and he was far more popular than Stone at their peaks.

Did Mike Milbury not work for an owner that forced him to trade players? And that was independently verified. We just have Dorion's word on being forced to trade Stone. How about Doug MacLean taking over the Blue Jackets as an expansion team? You don't think there were financial constraints there?

The worst GMs of all time that get ridiculed by many including some of Dorion's supporters... faced the same constraints as him and produced similar results.

If the sale process of the Senators had been smooth and short instead of long and drawn out... Dorion would have already been replaced by a new owner.

In terms of DJ Smith I feel he's better at coaching than Dorion is at managing. But hopefully when Dorion goes we move on from DJ Smith too. I think DJ Smith deserves credit for not f***ing up player development of our young players. Stutzle is thriving. Brady Tkachuk is better than expected. Sanderson looked good. He deserves his credit for that. But the Senators at even strength have struggled, we go through large stretches where we look terrible and he should share the blame in that.

 

[Beech]

Looks like Dorion and DJ will survive and get yet another off-season due to the sale taking way too long.

Re-capping Dorion's luck:

- does a great job as head scout, gets promoted to AGM behind Bryan Murray (GM) and Tim Murray (heir apparent)
- Tim decides to leave and take the Buffalo GM job since Bryan doesn't want to retire anytime soon
- Bryan becomes ill and has to step down, tragically passing away later
- Dorion becomes GM of the team after only 2.5 years in the AGM role
- The team Bryan built makes it to the ECF in Dorion's first year in the role
- Melnyk decides to get perpetually drunk in Bert's down in Barbados, stops caring about the team
- Despite making bad moves and the team falling apart under his watch, Dorion stays on as GM
- For some reason Dorion gets to rebuild the team he helped turned into a bottom feeder
- Melnyk becomes ill, doesn't want to make any changes in his state
- He then passes away, team is run by a Board of Directors that can't/won't fire the GM until a sale
- Sale process keeps getting extended, just enough to ensure Dorion gets another off-season before new ownership can take over

Absolutely unreal. Dude fell ass backwards into the role, failed at every turn, and after 7-8 years he's still calling the shots

get on any information source on the net and search GMs of Canadian teams from 2000 onwards.

1) They typically last 2 to 3 times longer than their USA counterparts
2) the often get jobs in other Canadian Markets.
3) few get hired to work in US markets after termination in Canada
4) no Canadian team has won a cup since 1993
5) 6 teams reached a final since 1994, 30 years, 2 spots, 60 total..6 from Canada..1 in 10.. Canadian teams are 1 in 4.

we don't fire GMs here. We simply accept losing... It is our way.. be nice and lose... And have a poutine... Canadiana.

piss f*** all for wins in Ottawa since 2007... piss f*** all for playoff success.... 2 GMS, 1/2 dozen coaches. 2 GMS... it took death to get rid of one.

combined the 7 Canadian teams have had something like 20 GMs in 24 years. 5 or 6 have been rethreads. so in 24 years each Canadian team has averaged 3 GMS. Or about 8 years average. That average will only grow as Dorion, Chev. and Holland stay longer and longer. and the 15 different guys have averaged almost 10 years in Canadian GM positions.

As part of a debate on here some 4 years ago, I ran some numbers. US based GM are fired at 2,1 to 2,2 times quicker. And the Yanks have won the last 30 cups and have been 54 out of 60 finalists.

 

[Golden_Jet]

piss f*** all for wins in Ottawa since 2007... piss f*** all for playoff success.... 2 GMS, 1/2 dozen coaches. 2 GMS... it took death to get rid of one.

combined the 7 Canadian teams have had something like 20 GMs in 24 years. 5 or 6 have been rethreads. so in 24 years each Canadian team has averaged 3 GMS. Or about 8 years average. That average will only grow as Dorion, Chev. and Holland stay longer and longer. and the 15 different guys have averaged almost 10 years in Canadian GM positions.

As part of a debate on here some 4 years ago, I ran some numbers. US based GM are fired at 2,1 to 2,2 times quicker. And the Yanks have won the last 30 cups and have been 54 out of 60 finalists.

Haha an OT goal from going to cup final again, is piss f*** all.
It’s okay to blow steam all you want, at least be accurate, or loses any credibility.

 

[Hale The Villain]

get on any information source on the net and search GMs of Canadian teams from 2000 onwards.

1) They typically last 2 to 3 times longer than their USA counterparts
2) the often get jobs in other Canadian Markets.
3) few get hired to work in US markets after termination in Canada
4) no Canadian team has won a cup since 1993
5) 6 teams reached a final since 1994, 30 years, 2 spots, 60 total..6 from Canada..1 in 10.. Canadian teams are 1 in 4.

we don't fire GMs here. We simply accept losing... It is our way.. be nice and lose... And have a poutine... Canadiana.

piss f*** all for wins in Ottawa since 2007... piss f*** all for playoff success.... 2 GMS, 1/2 dozen coaches. 2 GMS... it took death to get rid of one.

combined the 7 Canadian teams have had something like 20 GMs in 24 years. 5 or 6 have been rethreads. so in 24 years each Canadian team has averaged 3 GMS. Or about 8 years average. That average will only grow as Dorion, Chev. and Holland stay longer and longer. and the 15 different guys have averaged almost 10 years in Canadian GM positions.

As part of a debate on here some 4 years ago, I ran some numbers. US based GM are fired at 2,1 to 2,2 times quicker. And the Yanks have won the last 30 cups and have been 54 out of 60 finalists.

Yeah it's interesting. Definitely a greater tolerance for failure here up north. More cut-throat down south.

I think Ottawa might be an extreme to that end as well. Government city where little accountability exists, people get re-assigned rather than fired, continuity is the norm and change isn't exactly welcomed with open arms, even if it's needed.

 

[Adele Dazeem]

That 2021 draft does one thing. It shaves off a year or two of our window.
Every draft you need to get at least 2 NHL level talent (I don't care if it's a top line forward or a bottom-6 grinder)
If you fail to meet that mark you're going to have a hard time "resupplying" your team with entry-level talent.
Boucher and Ostapchuk still have a decent shot at making it in the league, but it's not looking good.