Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

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BonHoonLayneCornell

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Oct 16, 2006
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Yeah it's interesting. Definitely a greater tolerance for failure here up north. More cut-throat down south.

I think Ottawa might be an extreme to that end as well. Government city where little accountability exists, people get re-assigned rather than fired, continuity is the norm and change isn't exactly welcomed with open arms, even if it's needed.
Crazy to think that Melnyk never hired from outside the organization for the GM position. He kept Muckler. Hired Murray and Dorion from within. When Dorion was up, the only other name tossed around as a contender was Randy Handy Lee. Melnyk made clear that people in these positions like coaches need to walk on water to be able to command a decent salary. And for a guy that apparently got so emotionally involved with coach firings, you'd think we'd have seen more change for the guys that put the rosters together.

It may be a "Canadian" thing, but it was also very much a Melnyk thing. What's your pool of employees when wages are rock bottom and you have to deal with a raging egomaniac for an owner? I'm optimistic that small market line of thinking and restrictive hiring policies are gone with him out of the picture.
 

Beech

Registered User
Nov 25, 2020
3,203
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Haha an OT goal from going to cup final again, is piss f*** all.
It’s okay to blow steam all you want, at least be accurate, or loses any credibility.
ohh the 2017 ecf, let us see:

finish 12th overall
played a Boston Bruins team in round one that by game four had the Providence Bruins defense as their defense
Play the NYR in round 2... a team that collapsed as they did one year later. And was about as motivated as the Leafs are today.
Play the Penguins, who they trapped to death.

f*** yea, that ECF was testimony to success.... Damn, we are talking the 27 Yankees, the 72 Dolphins and the 76 Habs aren't we.

The Expos celebrated the Rick Monday /Blue Monday series from 1981 to 2004 when they let town.. "We were one pitch away",,, UHHH !!!!

Jet, let me know when the parade for the 2017 ECF is and where...

Common Jet.. Don't follow their shit. 6 games to beat the Providence Bruins. We need to get of the "one pitch to Rick Monday"... Montreal hung on to it for 23 years.
 
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Golden_Jet

Registered User
Sep 21, 2005
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ohh the 2017 ecf, let us see:

finish 12th overall
played a Boston Bruins team in round one that by game four had the Providence Bruins defense as their defense
Play the NYR in round 2... a team that collapsed as they did one year later. And was about as motivated as the Leafs are today.
Play the Penguins, who they trapped to death.

f*** yea, that ECF was testimony to success.... Damn, we are talking the 27 Yankees, the 72 Dolphins and the 76 Habs aren't we.

The Expos celebrated the Rick Monday /Blue Monday series from 1981 to 2004 when they let town.. "We were one pitch away",,, UHHH !!!!

Jet, let me know when the parade for the 2017 ECF is and where...

Common Jet.. Don't follow their shit. 6 games to beat the Providence Bruins. We need to get of the "one pitch to Rick Monday"... Montreal hung on to it for 23 years.
Lmao dude, you’re hatred can’t be good for you,
maybe should just cheer for the team that wins the cup each year, you wouldn’t be so bitter, one would hope. Cause a goal from finals obviously isn’t good enough.
 

Beech

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Nov 25, 2020
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Yeah it's interesting. Definitely a greater tolerance for failure here up north. More cut-throat down south.

I think Ottawa might be an extreme to that end as well. Government city where little accountability exists, people get re-assigned rather than fired, continuity is the norm and change isn't exactly welcomed with open arms, even if it's needed.
Probably... but the reality is: the team is not run by a government agency. Nor government exec.

The Euge is from TO and lived in Barbados and ran in private pharmaceutical companies and associated with some really shady individuals. Firing is like chewing gum.. you chew and spit.

We the fans... we accept and come back.. we are mushrooms.. keep us in the dark, feed us shit and we return every year.

we do not put pressure on owners to make changes.. In the US. the team starts losing, empty seats. and the fans do not come back. And small TV ratings become zero.
 

Beech

Registered User
Nov 25, 2020
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Lmao dude, you’re hatred can’t be good for you,
maybe should just cheer for the team that wins the cup each year, you wouldn’t be so bitter, one would hope. Cause a goal from finals obviously isn’t good enough.
bitter..

30 years no Canadian cup
30 years no cup in Ottawa
17 years no trip to Stanley cup final
6 years out of the playoffs
3 years near dead last
30 years ~ 15 series played
30 years ~ 8 series wins
average finish since 2007 ~ 20 th... since teams do not consistently finish first or last.. the upper and lower limits are 6-24..... 20th...

One goal from an ECF and I should be okay.....

To quote my friend Vince Lombardi " Show me a good loser, and I will show you a loser"

Jet...raise you standards son.... I grew up in Montreal 1973-1993... 20 years, 7 cups, 8 cup trips. 20 consecutive trips to the playoffs.. and so on. The Mayor had a famous line at a city hall meeting.. "The Stanley Cup parade will be per its usual route".
 
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Masked

(Super/star)
Apr 16, 2017
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They got the donuts? Excellent....
Yeah it's interesting. Definitely a greater tolerance for failure here up north. More cut-throat down south.

I think Ottawa might be an extreme to that end as well. Government city where little accountability exists, people get re-assigned rather than fired, continuity is the norm and change isn't exactly welcomed with open arms, even if it's needed.

Except that Ottawa's stats are not like that. We've had 8 GM's in 32 years. Sexton, Gauthier and Dudley all worked as GMs in the US after leaving Ottawa. Johnston worked in the US (but not as a GM).

Assen na yo!
 

Golden_Jet

Registered User
Sep 21, 2005
25,449
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bitter..

30 years no Canadian cup
30 years no cup in Ottawa
17 years no trip to Stanley cup final
6 years out of the playoffs
3 years near dead last
30 years ~ 15 series played
30 years ~ 8 series wins
average finish since 2007 ~ 20 th... since teams do not consistently finish first or last.. the upper and lower limits are 6-24..... 20th...

One goal from an ECF and I should be okay.....

To quote my friend Vince Lombardi " Show me a good loser, and I will show you a loser"

Jet...raise you standards son.... I grew up in Montreal 1973-1993... 20 years, 7 cups, 8 cup trips. 20 consecutive trips to the playoffs.. and so on. The Mayor had a famous line at a city hall meeting.. "The Stanley Cup parade will be per its usual route".
Habs sound like your team then, since they had success 30 years ago.
 

Cosmix

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Ben Roger, the team's 2nd round pick in 2021, will not be offered a contract.

Matthew Knies was taken 8 picks later.

Carson Latimer and Chandler Romeo will also not be signed.

So that's a wasted 2nd, 4th and 7th. In one draft!

The 2021 draft for Ottawa is now just Tyler Boucher, Zack Ostapchuk and Oliver Johansson. After a season where we finished 23rd in the league.
Seems like we need new and more scouts!

It was wasted, no? The player drafted was not offered a contract and was never part of the organization. I think that's the definition of wasted.

2021 was later than 2020, so there's obviously fewer players who have played NHL games. Way too early to say it was a bad draft because of COVID.

And with the Boucher and Roger picks specifically – they were widely panned on draft day, and they only look worse now.

Mann fumbled the ball.
Mann still works for the Senators! Well one of them does. For a while.
 

Beech

Registered User
Nov 25, 2020
3,203
1,142
Habs sound like your team then, since they had success 30 years ago.
Sadly they are now just another Canadian team. Mired in failure and perfectly willing to hang on to GMs forever. Berg. lasted 10 years,,, 5 past his due date!!!!

Toronto hire Treliving, HOW????????? he gave insane contracts to aging veterans many will expire when these players are 37 and 38... He traded Brady's brother for "Hubie".... a guy running around Florida dating "social influencers".. you see enough of her body on the net, she does influence!!! Who promptly sets a record for teh highest point drop by a player.. His contract starts next season. At 10 plus million and ends in 8 years. When he will be 38!!!

This same genius is now in TO, where he can give similar deals to their stars and trade one or two effective ones, for Toronto's version of Hubie!!!!

it may be another 30 years with no cup in Canada. Luckily, I will be dead.

Jet Old Buddy... I am Arab... Israel kicks our butt from one end of the planet to another... Jews fight city hall...we blindly follow it.
 

Xspyrit

DJ Dorion
Jun 29, 2008
31,388
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Montreal, Canada
Funny how it's contextual when Florida signs him, but that same context doesn't apply to us when we're literally talking about the same player in the same off-season. Keep that double standard going!

No idea what you're trying to say. Yes Duclair might have been overpricing himself vs the market at that time and he didn't have an agent (which is something I criticized him for), but letting him go was still not the solution. Even overpaying him would have been a much better investment than whatever else Dorion did with the money

Dorion just wanted to avoid arbitration, maybe he let his pride get in the way? Who knows?

Once again, applying context when convenient for you. Rules for thee, but not for mee.

I am 100% always applying context, or the context I am aware of. Just stop

Cool your jets. Paquette was shipped off less than a month into the season, likely because he wasn't a good pro. In return, we got Dzingel, who we shipped off for and additional two 2nd round picks a year earlier (plus Duclair). That's on top of the 2nd we got for taking Paquette. That's basically three free 2nd round picks and still had Dzingel at the end of that trade tree. ...and people have the audacity to say Dorion has bad asset management.

Stepan and Gudbanson on the other hand were absolutely good pros and were important for the development of the young players. Norris even said so. There's a reason those two are still in the NHL 3 years later, and Paquette and Balcers are not. No amount of hysterical shrieking is going to change that fact.

Doesn't matter when Paquette was shipped off, he should have been waived at the start. We took him as a cap dump, he didn't want to be here but we "protected" him over one of our good prospects. It was hilariously stupid, particularly when the closest team waived Corey Perry to avoid losing a young player. Nobody would have claimed Paquette, even if someone did, who the f*** cares?

Nothing to do with Balcers, it's our terrible pro scouting and the list of players that played for this team in 2020-21 speaks VOLUMES

No matter how good the return was for Dzingel, the way Dorion managed it is the premium example for how he has been managing this team. Murray, Stepan and let Duclair go for nothing... I mean this has been ridiculed here so maybe you shouldn't use it as an example to say "people have the audacity to say Dorion has bad asset management"...

Good thing if Stepan and Gudbranson were at least good pros in the room, but on the ice it was terrible and all it did was exposing the young players even more. They were literally thrown to the wolves and it was very reminiscent of Hall's Oilers. There's no shrieking or whatever you're saying. All of this is easy to analyze (and a lot doesn't even need the benefit of hindsight) and there is absolutely no way that Pierre Dorion should have a job managing a billion dollars business.

They needed to add a Rudy Balcers/Sean Farrell type talent at the 2017 deadline, but instead they added a 900 game veteran. Very disrespectful.

No matter how much mocking and sarcasm is used, you know exactly what the real roots of the problems have been. It has even transpired in our drafting lately. But sure, let's act like this team has been managed super efficiently. It really reinforces our window of opportunity both in length and strength!

People here have mocked the Leafs for not winning a round for 17+ years. We're at 7 already. And thankfully we won 2 rounds the last time we were in the playoffs, with Dorion's predecessor's team. If it wasn't for that 2017 run, we'd be at 11 years already. Pressure is mounting and thankfully new ownership will want results, which is normal when you invest a billion+
 
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Golden_Jet

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Sep 21, 2005
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Wonder if we could get Balcers back, seems like fans miss what he brought.

Lmao , we’ve been out of the playoffs for 7 years again.
 

Xspyrit

DJ Dorion
Jun 29, 2008
31,388
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Wonder if we could get Balcers back, seems like fans miss what he brought.

The problem some seem to have is that related stuff with the team seems to interfere with their personal pride, which is not ideal to think rationally. I can't explain any other way why would anyone would defend a complete stranger that has actually been an hindrance to enjoying following their favorite hockey team more.

You can keep being disingenuous all you want, our pro scouting, asset management and results on the ice track record speaks for itself. Most aren't blind and are able to talk about it. Some prefer to keep their head buried in the sand. Much easier to cope with reality I guess.

Lmao , we’ve been out of the playoffs for 7 years again.

Using "lmaos" won't change facts. Unless you really suck at maths, yes it is going to be 7 years minimum
 

Golden_Jet

Registered User
Sep 21, 2005
25,449
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The problem some seem to have is that related stuff with the team seems to interfere with their personal pride, which is not ideal to think rationally. I can't explain any other way why would anyone would defend a complete stranger that has actually been an hindrance to enjoying following their favorite hockey team more.

You can keep being disingenuous all you want, our pro scouting, asset management and results on the ice track record speaks for itself. Most aren't blind and are able to talk about it. Some prefer to keep their head buried in the sand. Much easier to cope with reality I guess.



Using "lmaos" won't change facts. Unless you really suck at maths, yes it is going to be 7 years minimum
Nice goalpost move, lmao is okay here, My Math is fine thanks.

Only had to scroll up a few posts.

People here have mocked the Leafs for not winning a round for 17+ years. We're at 7 already.
 

Hockeysawks

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May 16, 2023
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Crazy to think that Melnyk never hired from outside the organization for the GM position. He kept Muckler. Hired Murray and Dorion from within. When Dorion was up, the only other name tossed around as a contender was Randy Handy Lee. Melnyk made clear that people in these positions like coaches need to walk on water to be able to command a decent salary. And for a guy that apparently got so emotionally involved with coach firings, you'd think we'd have seen more change for the guys that put the rosters together.

It may be a "Canadian" thing, but it was also very much a Melnyk thing. What's your pool of employees when wages are rock bottom and you have to deal with a raging egomaniac for an owner? I'm optimistic that small market line of thinking and restrictive hiring policies are gone with him out of the picture.
Why woul anyone want to promote anyone ever? I think it's fairly obvious Dorion is a hard worker and a good employee. With EM out of the way the new core looks great and people are going to the games.
I am thrilled to see them play next year.Contracts look fantastic the prospects look great the players are likeable.
They will make the playoffs
 

Butchy Dakkar

Dark Butch Yak didn't seem right.
Oct 3, 2020
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I guess my math sucks. 2018-2023 inclusive is 6 years missing the playoffs isn’t it? Where does 7 come from?

I’m in the camp that PD has inked some great contracts, and made some outstanding trades to GET assets, but awful asset management overall, pissing away accumulated picks for horrible or negative value. Acknowledging some of that was the Melnyk effect (but not all of it for sure).
 

Agent Zuuuub

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Jan 2, 2015
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Why woul anyone want to promote anyone ever? I think it's fairly obvious Dorion is a hard worker and a good employee. With EM out of the way the new core looks great and people are going to the games.
I am thrilled to see them play next year.Contracts look fantastic the prospects look great the players are likeable.
They will make the playoffs

Hard work doesn't equal results though. Especially in something like being GM which is as much art as science.

But Dorion seems to have neither the art or the science.
 

swiftwin

★SUMMER.OF.STEVE★
Jul 26, 2005
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Hard work doesn't equal results though. Especially in something like being GM which is as much art as science.

But Dorion seems to have neither the art or the science.
The results are there.

It's clear that your obsession with Dorion is clouding your judgement.
 

Agent Zuuuub

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Jan 2, 2015
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The results are there.

It's clear that your obsession with Dorion is clouding your judgement.

What results? That we drafted high and as a result picked talented prospects with those high picks?

That we haven't made the playoffs but have no picks and one of the worst prospect pool in the league?

That in the past 2-3 years that Dorion tried to win games his team came close to the playoffs for one week?
 

swiftwin

★SUMMER.OF.STEVE★
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What results? That we drafted high and as a result picked talented prospects with those high picks?

That we haven't made the playoffs but have no picks and one of the worst prospect pool in the league?

That in the past 2-3 years that Dorion tried to win games his team came close to the playoffs for one week?
We have one of the best young cores in the league. Period.

Name a team that started a full rebuild after us that has a better young core than us. You can't. Dorion did it despite every single one of our draft picks losing the lottery.

It's clear you have an agenda. It was clear when you couldn't do math properly. It's clear when you say things like "we have the worst prospect pool in the league". This is why nobody takes you seriously.
 

Agent Zuuuub

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We have one of the best young cores in the league. Period.

Name a team that started a full rebuild after us that has a better young core than us. You can't. Dorion did it despite every single one of our draft picks losing the lottery.

It's clear you have an agenda. It was clear when you couldn't do math properly. It's clear when you say things like "we have the worst prospect pool in the league". This is why nobody takes you seriously.

It would have been impossible to not have one of the best young cores in the league when you get so many assets to sell off and then you tank for 6 years. The system is designed like that.

And even with that the only reason we have it is because the team didn't win the lottery and take Lafrenierre.

The only agenda I have is for the the Senators to return to normalcy and be run by world class individuals like many other teams. Not people who got there through luck and nepotism.
 
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swiftwin

★SUMMER.OF.STEVE★
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It would have been impossible to not have one of the best young cores in the league when you get so many assets to sell off and then you tank for 6 years. The system is designed like that.

And even with that the only reason we have it is because the team didn't win the lottery and take Lafrenierre.

The only agenda I have is for the the Senators to return by normalcy and be run by world class individuals like many other teams. Not people who got there through luck and nepotism.
You say impossible, yet plenty of teams have been rebuilding for longer and are worse off than us.

Also, the entire damn league is run by nepotism. What a weird thing to say.
 

Agent Zuuuub

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Jan 2, 2015
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You say impossible, yet plenty of teams have been rebuilding for longer and are worse off than us.

Also, the entire damn league is run by nepotism. What a weird thing to say.

Nepotism tinged with a heavy dose of meritocracy. There is no meritocracy in the Senators management, if there was Dorion would feel threatened and we all know how insecure he is.

He didn't get to where he is because meritocracy and he full well knows.

Other teams employ nepotism when they fill their coaching staffs and GMs with guys like Brindamour, Sakic, Yzerman, Blake. Big difference.

Imagine Dorion approaching these guys trying to talk shop. He wouldn't cuz he's an imposter given the job by a crazy owner when no credible organization would ever give it to him.
 

swiftwin

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Nepotism tinged with a heavy dose of meritocracy. There is no meritocracy in the Senators management, if there was Dorion would feel threatened and we all know how insecure he is.

He didn't get to where he is because meritocracy and he full well knows.

Other teams employ nepotism when they fill their coaching staffs and GMs with guys like Brindamour, Sakic, Yzerman, Blake. Big difference.

Imagine Dorion approaching these guys trying to talk shop. He wouldn't cuz he's an imposter given the job by a crazy owner when no credible organization would ever give it to him.
Hold up... So first you're arguing that Dorion is a nepotism hire (how?), then go on to argue that other nepotism hires are OK, because those are former players, and they are too "cool" to negotiate with Dorion???

Also, I think we finally found out why you're so obsessed with Dorion. You think he's not "cool enough", and unable to "talk shop" with other GMs around the league.

Seriously. How old are you? How much real world experience do you have in a real businesses? You seem to have the mentality of a high schooler, where you think the student body should have the cool kids.
 

Agent Zuuuub

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Hold up... So first you're arguing that Dorion is a nepotism hire (how?), then go on to argue that other nepotism hires are OK, because those are former players, and they are too "cool" to negotiate with Dorion???

Also, I think we finally found out why you're so obsessed with Dorion. You think he's not "cool enough", and unable to "talk shop" with other GMs around the league.

Seriously. How old are you? How much real world experience do you have in a real businesses? You seem to have the mentality of a high schooler, where you think the student body should have the cool kids.

I don't think he can talk shop with those individuals because on a hockey level I do not think he can mentally keep up with them.

It has nothing to do with being cool or not, i think that's just you projecting.

Tell me do you believe that Pierre Dorion is in the top 1 percent of hockey minds alive on planet earth?

My career is business and Dorion is the CEO they warn you about, the one who has the ability to make good companies bad.
 
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