Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Cosmix]

I don't particularly like Dubas per se. I just think he would be an upgrade on Dorion and that what Dubas is good at (cap management, finding value players) is what we need right now. What he is bad at (negotiations with big players) is largely settled because Stutzle's contract sets the bar.

It's not really about him being some great GM. I just think we need to move towards efficiency with our $$$ and Dorion hasn't been able to do that.

It's Dorion's trades that have bothered me the most. After that it is his lack of communications skills.

Stutzle's contract is great for the team.

What determines future contracts for players are the salary cap ceiling, the team's budget, and the market rate (the team's we are bidding against for players). Stutzle's contract does not set any standard for future contracts.

 

[Hale The Villain]

In fairness, he's not incorrect. Let's agree that the rebuild started after 2017/18. So if you include this upcoming offseason, that's 6 drafts.

In that span, we "should" have had 6 1st round picks. And we've picked 7 1st rounders. So we're +1 from what was expected. Plus we have Chychrun and Debrincat.

I don't think Dorion's handling of draft capital has been all that big a problem. In the last 5 drafts, we've taken 20 players in the first 3 rounds. You can only have so many prospects.

His pro acquisitions and decisions have been a much, much, much bigger issue. (i.e. misevaluating Brannstrom, Paul for Joseph, Gustavsson for Talbot, letting Duclair walk for nothing, signing Murray and Dadonov when the roster was terrible, etc). His choices of coaches have been equally as bad.

Strongly disagree.

We haven't even made the playoffs yet and Dorion has already traded away almost as many quality picks as he got in return for trading away more talent than any other GM in recent history. It's unheard of for a team to do that having not yet established itself as a contender.

Yeah we have Chychrun and DeBrincat (at least for now) but Dorion traded Karlsson, Stone, Duchene, Hoffman, Pageau and Dzingel at the top of their games. That's an entire top 6 of guys traded in their mid-late 20s and one of the best D in the league. Not exactly the same kind of talent in vs. out. Crazy that we only have an extra 1st and a couple extra 2nds left after trading that much talent away.

I've said this many times but trading two 1sts and two 2nds for DeBrincat and Chychrun would have been fine (or at least not hurt as much) had Dorion not completely failed to weaponize his cap space during the rebuild to add picks like Arizona, but the pipeline is already pretty dry and it's looking like we're not going to have a steady inflow of cheap talent on ELCs that are typically needed to keep teams contending for long periods of time.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Strongly disagree.

We haven't even made the playoffs yet and Dorion has already traded away almost as many quality picks as he got in return for trading away more talent than any other GM in recent history. It's unheard of for a team to do that having not yet established itself as a contender.

Yeah we have Chychrun and DeBrincat (at least for now) but Dorion traded Karlsson, Stone, Duchene, Hoffman, Pageau and Dzingel at the top of their games. That's an entire top 6 of guys traded in their mid-late 20s and one of the best D in the league. Not exactly the same kind of talent in vs. out. Crazy that we only have an extra 1st and a couple extra 2nds left after trading that much talent away.

I've said this many times but trading two 1sts and two 2nds for DeBrincat and Chychrun would have been fine (or at least not hurt as much) had Dorion not completely failed to weaponize his cap space during the rebuild to add picks like Arizona, but the pipeline is already pretty dry and it's looking like we're not going to have a steady inflow of cheap talent on ELCs that are typically needed to keep teams contending for long periods of time.

Out: Karlsson, Stone, Duchene, Pageau, Hoffman, Dzingel
In: Stützle, Norris, Greig, Kleven, Brannstrom

I don't think it's as far off as you think, in terms of talent in and out. No, not every trade worked out and not every piece hit, but to end up with those young players is pretty good. Most teams that sell off mid-20s stars looking for paydays don't do nearly as well.

I agree that failing to weaponize cap space to acquire mid-round picks + utilizing mid-round picks to get out of mistakes can be criticized, but in terms of the top-end young talent we've acquired during the rebuild, we're in fantastic shape.

And in terms of cheap young talent to fill out the roster, we have plenty on the horizon: Greig, Kleven, Ostapchuk, Boucher, etc, are all safe bets to be 3rd line, 3rd pairing players (aka. we'll get our own Ross Coltons and Blake Colemans).

We don't have any more elite young talent coming - that you're right about.

 

[otown]

Agree that PD is mediocre at best but Dubas has also had multiple opportunities to create a solid playoff performing team and the fact is.....he hasn't done that!
Too many question marks with Dubas and questionable signings and trades.
Over rated given his resume!

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Well…

 

[otown]

Well…

The connection makes sense but will have to wait to see if they are successful in their bid!

 

[DaveMatthew]

Well…

I'd be fine with bringing in a Steve Staios (or Jason Spezza) type as GM so long as there's a more experienced person hired to be President of Hockey Ops.

 

[HSF]

Agree that PD is mediocre at best but Dubas has also had multiple opportunities to create a solid playoff performing team and the fact is.....he hasn't done that!
Too many question marks with Dubas and questionable signings and trades.
Over rated given his resume!

I don't think many people think Dubas is amazing. There are probably a 1 or 2 GMs out there who I would consider much better than their counter parts.

Do I think Dubas is better than Dorion? Definitely I do. Do I think Dubas has the ability to improve and learn from his mistakes? Yes I think he does.

I think Dubas surrounding himself with a cap specialist and other good people is what ottawa needs if they clear house. They need a guy who has had the resources before and knows what works and what doesn't. If we plan on having a cap team too I think that experience of skirting around the cap will work great here.

 

[Golden_Jet]

I don't think many people think Dubas is amazing. There are probably a 1 or 2 GMs out there who I would consider much better than their counter parts.

Do I think Dubas is better than Dorion? Definitely I do. Do I think Dubas has the ability to improve and learn from his mistakes? Yes I think he does.

I think Dubas surrounding himself with a cap specialist and other good people is what ottawa needs if they clear house. They need a guy who has had the resources before and knows what works and what doesn't. If we plan on having a cap team too I think that experience of skirting around the cap will work great here.

That for sure most think he’s been really bad.

 

[HSF]

That for sure most think he’s been really bad.

I think a large part of the leafs fanbase want him back and I think its likely he remains there. We also know there is a ton of interest for him around the league. Seravalli said today that Dubas will be out of the league for as long as he wants to.

If Dorion can't keep DBC then I don't think he is the man for the job

 

[Golden_Jet]

I think a large part of the leafs fanbase want him back and I think its likely he remains there. We also know there is a ton of interest for him around the league. Seravalli said today that Dubas will be out of the league for as long as he wants to.

If Dorion can't keep DBC then I don't think he is the man for the job

Should go read the leafs board then. Hopefully he gets snagged quick then by another team.

 

[HSF]

Dubas is speaking to the media right now. very very interesting pretty much seems like he is not even sure he wants to be a GM and wants to talk to his family. Said it will be Toronto or no where for now. Could be him just not wanting to let down Toronto fans but seems like a dead man walking


Wonder if he gets better family balance in a president of hockey ops type role. Might be worth looking at him like that

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I think a large part of the leafs fanbase want him back and I think its likely he remains there. We also know there is a ton of interest for him around the league. Seravalli said today that Dubas will be out of the league for as long as he wants to.

If Dorion can't keep DBC then I don't think he is the man for the job

He should never have traded for him with no extension in the 1st place. Its been forever that he isn't the man for the job.

 

[swiftwin]

we're not going to have a steady inflow of cheap talent on ELCs that are typically needed to keep teams contending for long periods of time.

That's just one philosophy on how to keep teams contending for a long time. After all, ELCs only last 2-3 years (depending on if the player wants to burn a year at the end of a season). Few teams have been able to lock down their young core for 7-8 years like we have. Just look at the mess Toronto is in right now because of this. Just look at how Calgary lost Tkachuk. I've already posted this before, but, with these long contracts, we'll actually have quite a bit of cap flexibility starting in 2025, especially with the cap almost certainly going up significantly thanks to inflation. That lines up perfectly with the projected peak of our contention window.

 

[ichbinkanadier]

I'd be fine with bringing in a Steve Staios (or Jason Spezza) type as GM so long as there's a more experienced person hired to be President of Hockey Ops.

Keep Jason Spezza away from this team forever. Never invite him back to Ottawa for anything

 

[Golden_Jet]

Keep Jason Spezza away from this team forever. Never invite him back to Ottawa for anything

What a strange take lol. Spezza has always been a hockey nerd.

 

[oooooooooohCanada]

Although Dubas has generally done an ok job in Toronto, I'd prefer we don't go that route.

Would be nice to have a GM somewhere in the middle between the analytic freak obsessed with advanced stats and the guy obsessed with toughness/physicality that drafted Boucher 10th OVR.

Dubas isn't an analytics freak if thats what you were implying. That was just a weirdo stereotype he got because he was super young and was called cutting edge on his come up. He uses every tool to his advantage.

 

[ichbinkanadier]

What a strange take lol. Spezza has always been a hockey nerd.

Me not ever like him; wasted all that talent. And he's a Toronto boy. They think of everything outside of Toronto as provincial.

 

[oooooooooohCanada]

That for sure most think he’s been really bad.

Most media members have said he's widely respected league wide. There's a reason why a powerhouse ownership group in Pittsburgh that owns multiple class of their league teams would be wanting to give Dubas full control over their franchise.

 

[Sens Vader]

Good I didn’t really want Dubas

 

[HSF]

Me not ever like him; wasted all that talent. And he's a Toronto boy. They think of everything outside of Toronto as provincial.

whats with the little brother syndrome around these parts these days

 

[ichbinkanadier]

whats with the little brother syndrome around these parts these days

Not familiar with Toronto?

 

[Golden_Jet]

Luckily sounds like Dubas if not renewing, he’s taking a year off, phew.

 

[HSF]

Not familiar with Toronto?

thought we would be past that by now.

 

[ichbinkanadier]

thought we would be past that by now.

I would move to Montreal in a heartbeat. Love Montreal.