Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Cosmix]

I don't want Dubas as Senator's GM nor the Leafs soon to be ex-coach to replace Smith as Senator's HC.

But again Dorion was kind of given the keys to the kingdom under certain circumstances. He was a former scout (a development and talent evaluation guy) tasked with guiding the rebuild. He was the rebuild GM.

Dorion hasn't really done anything to prove that he knows how to GM a competitive NHL team. Like yeah maybe he can do it but if money is no longer an object why take the risk? Why not bring in someone with a track record of playoff success or something like that?

His first trade of Zibby and a second round pick for Brassard totally soured me on Dorion as GM. Then he traded away the team's best players and took on low salary high cap players to meet the cap floor while putting a bottom quartile team on the ice. He has a few hits, mostly from luck, and is not a quality GM.

 

[R2010]

If dubas walks it’s time to bring him in

I'd be fine with that on some level. He's shown he can bring in great pieces to fit around a core inside a tough cap situation. He just signed his core for way too much and created a problematic position for himself. In a place like Ottawa I think he could do well because our core is set on decent deals.

Look at a signing like the Jarnkrok one. That's exactly the type of thing we needed - getting low cost secondary scoring.

 

[Sens Vader]

I don’t get the obsession with Dubas

He has a laundry list of bad contracts and trades

I’ve liked some moves as well but I think the hype is overrated, and I can’t stand Keefe outside of his entertaining spazz moments behind the bench

 

[BankStreetParade]

Your standards are so incredibly low its fascinating to read.

You are correct when you tear it down to the studs its going to take a while. But what they have coming out of it while trying to accelerate the process but still don't have the results is exactly why people want someone new. That on top of how obviously poor Dorions leadership is. When you tear it down like this have 6 straight top 10 picks and an additional 6 or 7 first rounders you should have better results or more in the pipeline.

4OA in 2018
3OA + 5OA in 2020
10OA in 2021
That's not 6 top 10 picks, it's not in consecutive years, there's only 3 other first rounders from 2018-2022 and we've just finished the rookie season of the 5OA pick from 2020.
I've already said multiple times that it's time for a new voice to lead the organization but unlike you I don't need to blatantly lie about what's happened to justify my position.

 

[bert]

4OA in 2018
3OA + 5OA in 2020
10OA in 2021
That's not 6 top 10 picks, it's not in consecutive years, there's only 3 other first rounders from 2018-2022 and we've just finished the rookie season of the 5OA pick from 2020.
I've already said multiple times that it's time for a new voice to lead the organization but unlike you I don't need to blatantly lie about what's happened to justify my position.

They finished bottom 10 for all of those seasons.... He had them... but traded them are you kidding me?!?! You call it 'lying' instead of your ability to actually look at the facts. They haven't had a 1st ir 2nd round pick for 2 years and haven't been in the playoffs. That should never happen.

 

[bert]

You do know that buffalo tried to trade for him right?

Murray when he played this year was actually good. The problem is he barely plays. His contract is pretty buyout friendly and Ottawa retained so it actually is not big deal for Toronto for also got a 3rd round pick to take him

Are you actually trying to defend Matt Murray? Hahaha. I don't even need to present an argument about how worthless and bad this player is. He's a net negative.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Mirtle: A new coach? New GM? What do the Maple Leafs do now after another early exit?

Major organizational decisions are coming to a head. And even those in the middle of it all do not have a clue what will happen next.

theathletic.com

Is there even time to clean house at the very top, with only six weeks until the draft and free agency period begins?

If not, if you’re going with Shanahan into the next phase of major decisions, then the question becomes: Do you commit to Dubas on a new long-term deal, given there are potentially other organizations interested and driving up the price?

And, even if you do want to commit, does Dubas still want to stay?

It’s not exactly the league’s best-kept secret that Shanahan and Dubas have been somewhat at odds this season, something evident in the fact they haven’t watched many games together, a change from years past.

Is that schism deep enough to mean a GM change is coming for certain? I don’t believe so, no. This isn’t going to be about personality conflicts. But it’s also clear that keeping this front office together will be far more complicated than simply coming up with a modest extension offer for the incumbent.

Dubas, those close to him say, will want to be paid handsomely, especially if there are other offers from the likes of Pittsburgh, Calgary or even division rival Ottawa. And he will want greater job security and autonomy within whatever structure Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment settles on.

Getting the GM situation set quickly will be step one for the franchise. And it’s a huge one because all the other pieces are going to be connected to it.

 

[Loach]

Lengthy , Informative ... Read it before you trash it.


He breaks down drafting , trading, contract signing, Best moves, Worst Moves and provides his conclusions.

Still reading it .. I did mention Lengthy

Finished it. Really comprehensive and fair piece of work. This is the most complete article on Dorion's body of work that you will find.

I thought this would get more attention around here.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

I thought this would get more attention around here.

No one wants to revisit the trauma lol

 

[Senscore]

I thought this would get more attention around here.

I have to emotionally prepare myself first.

 

[R2010]

I don’t get the obsession with Dubas

He has a laundry list of bad contracts and trades

I’ve liked some moves as well but I think the hype is overrated, and I can’t stand Keefe outside of his entertaining spazz moments behind the bench

I don't particularly like Dubas per se. I just think he would be an upgrade on Dorion and that what Dubas is good at (cap management, finding value players) is what we need right now. What he is bad at (negotiations with big players) is largely settled because Stutzle's contract sets the bar.

It's not really about him being some great GM. I just think we need to move towards efficiency with our $$$ and Dorion hasn't been able to do that.

 

[BankStreetParade]

They finished bottom 10 for all of those seasons.... He had them... but traded them are you kidding me?!?! You call it 'lying' instead of your ability to actually look at the facts. They haven't had a 1st ir 2nd round pick for 2 years and haven't been in the playoffs. That should never happen.

2019 1st traded before the rebuild started.
2022 1st traded for a young, multiple 40G+ scorer.
2023 1st traded for a young, top 4D that everyone has been saying is necessary for this team.
And what are the "6-7 other 1st rounders" you mentioned?

You wanna talk about kidding each other? Take that bullshit somewhere else. I'm f***ing sick of how ridiculous and unashamed you are of lying and sensationalizing these fictions you like to pass off as reality. f***ing disgusting. You don't have any interest in having a real conversation. You want to debate a narrative that you've made up and pretend like it's someone else's responsibility to disprove the easily disprovable to you. Get real, kid.

 

[JD1]

A vintage article from Graeme. He kept completely true to his form

 

[HSF]

Are you actually trying to defend Matt Murray? Hahaha. I don't even need to present an argument about how worthless and bad this player is. He's a net negative.

defend him how? its a low risk move for Toronto and got a free 3rd out of it. They got Sammy and had Woll waiting

Ottawa was in a different situation because we put all our eggs in one basket and hoped he would be the number 1 for an extended period of time. Toronto hedged their bets while recieving a 3rd and salary retention.

 

[SensHulk]

Lengthy , Informative ... Read it before you trash it.


He breaks down drafting , trading, contract signing, Best moves, Worst Moves and provides his conclusions.

Still reading it .. I did mention Lengthy

Finished it. Really comprehensive and fair piece of work. This is the most complete article on Dorion's body of work that you will find.

Need to send this to the new owners

 

[Tuna99]

I thought this would get more attention around here.

Better during the season when problem are actually fired up and things are at stake. People are in wait and see mode for ownership and I think investing time in what a shit shows it’s been here for 6 years isn’t a fun summer activity

 

[HSF]

Interesting note from the DFO Rundown podcast today. Servalli was saying that he believes the Edm Oilers will try to promote Holland to president and make Steve Staios the GM.

The reason he thinks this to be the case is that other teams like Ottawa, if Michael Andlauer becomes owner, will want to bring Staios in as the Ottawa GM


Andlauer is the owner of the Hamilton Bulldogs and his president and GM at the time they won two OHL championships was Staios

 

[Hale The Villain]

Interesting note from the DFO Rundown podcast today. Servalli was saying that he believes the Edm Oilers will try to promote Holland to president and make Steve Staios the GM.

The reason he thinks this to be the case is that other teams like Ottawa, if Michael Andlauer becomes owner, will want to bring Staios in as the Ottawa GM


Andlauer is the owner of the Hamilton Bulldogs and his president and GM at the time they won two OHL championships was Staios

Even though I'd obviously take damn near anyone over Dorion at this point, I'm not thrilled about this.

Staois has never been an NHL GM. He's only been an advisor "with a focus on player development" for 7 months with the Oilers.

Have to think there are better candidates, even if Andelauer is more familiar with Staios.

 

[HSF]

Even though I'd obviously take damn near anyone over Dorion at this point, I'm not thrilled about this.

Staois has never been an NHL GM. He's only been an advisor "with a focus on player development" for 7 months with the Oilers.

Have to think there are better candidates, even if Andelauer is more familiar with Staios.

agreed,

He also keeps linking Dubas with Ottawa if the Leafs let him walk.

Dubas grew up a Ottawa Senators fan and it seems like a good fit if he wants to stay in ontario

 

[DaveMatthew]

Even though I'd obviously take damn near anyone over Dorion at this point, I'm not thrilled about this.

Staois has never been an NHL GM. He's only been an advisor "with a focus on player development" for 7 months with the Oilers.

Have to think there are better candidates, even if Andelauer is more familiar with Staios.

I remember when Eugene Melnyk had a great relationship with Dave Cameron from their St.Mike's days and we had to bring him in...

Certainly hope new ownership brings in people with a track record of success at the NHL level, not their old employees from junior hockey.

 

[Hale The Villain]

agreed,

He also keeps linking Dubas with Ottawa if the Leafs let him walk.

Dubas grew up a Ottawa Senators fan and it seems like a good fit if he wants to stay in ontario

Although Dubas has generally done an ok job in Toronto, I'd prefer we don't go that route.

Would be nice to have a GM somewhere in the middle between the analytic freak obsessed with advanced stats and the guy obsessed with toughness/physicality that drafted Boucher 10th OVR.

 

[bert]

2019 1st traded before the rebuild started.
2022 1st traded for a young, multiple 40G+ scorer.
2023 1st traded for a young, top 4D that everyone has been saying is necessary for this team.
And what are the "6-7 other 1st rounders" you mentioned?

You wanna talk about kidding each other? Take that bullshit somewhere else. I'm f***ing sick of how ridiculous and unashamed you are of lying and sensationalizing these fictions you like to pass off as reality. f***ing disgusting. You don't have any interest in having a real conversation. You want to debate a narrative that you've made up and pretend like it's someone else's responsibility to disprove the easily disprovable to you. Get real, kid.

Get a grip. You are unhinged.

defend him how? its a low risk move for Toronto and got a free 3rd out of it. They got Sammy and had Woll waiting

Ottawa was in a different situation because we put all our eggs in one basket and hoped he would be the number 1 for an extended period of time. Toronto hedged their bets while recieving a 3rd and salary retention.

For a player they wouldnt even play it was a horrible deal.

agreed,

He also keeps linking Dubas with Ottawa if the Leafs let him walk.

Dubas grew up a Ottawa Senators fan and it seems like a good fit if he wants to stay in ontario

Why is he a good fit here? He is going to have way less resources and failed in Toronto. Do you really want someone who is going to yell at the oppositions fans? Throw temper tantrums in the box? Get run over by agents and players in contract negotiations? We can strive for better.

 

[bert]

Need to send this to the new owners

I am sure if they are spending a billion dollars a deep autopsy of everything in the organization will be done.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Get a grip. You are unhinged.

In fairness, he's not incorrect. Let's agree that the rebuild started after 2017/18. So if you include this upcoming offseason, that's 6 drafts.

In that span, we "should" have had 6 1st round picks. And we've picked 7 1st rounders. So we're +1 from what was expected. Plus we have Chychrun and Debrincat.

I don't think Dorion's handling of draft capital has been all that big a problem. In the last 5 drafts, we've taken 20 players in the first 3 rounds. You can only have so many prospects.

His pro acquisitions and decisions have been a much, much, much bigger issue. (i.e. misevaluating Brannstrom, Paul for Joseph, Gustavsson for Talbot, letting Duclair walk for nothing, signing Murray and Dadonov when the roster was terrible, etc). His choices of coaches have been equally as bad.

 

[Masked]

Why is he a good fit here? He is going to have way less resources and failed in Toronto. Do you really want someone who is going to yell at the oppositions fans? Throw temper tantrums in the box? Get run over by agents and players in contract negotiations? We can strive for better.

If it is Leaf fans, yes! And then have security throw 'em out!

Assen na yo!