Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[HSF]

Weir, the entire hockey world is talking about our up and coming team, even fans from rivals come to say nice things.

Our 5 contrarians are steadfast though.

if rival fans are saying nice things to us it means we aren't very good

 

[Ouroboros]

if rival fans are saying nice things to us it means we aren't very good

Yes. Rival fans being complimentary means they don't view that team as a threat.

Sports equivalent of being friend-zoned.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Yes. Rival fans being complimentary means they don't view that team as a threat.

Sports equivalent of being friend-zoned.

Hmmmm, we have fans in here just today saying complimentary things about our rivals….

We also say nice things generally about our up and coming peer group teams like the Wings and Sabres Who we definitely view as a threat.

Soon enough we’ll be hated, just have to beat a few teams in the playoffs to get that fire burning!

 

[Ouroboros]

Hmmmm, we have fans in here just today saying complimentary things about our rivals….

We also say nice things generally about our up and coming peer group teams like the Wings and Sabres Who we definitely view as a threat.

Soon enough we’ll be hated, just have to beat a few teams in the playoffs to get that fire burning!

A substantial percentage of HFSens are suffering from Dorion Derangement Syndrome and will say nice things about pretty much anybody or anything that makes poor Pierre look bad.

This will soon change.

 

[JD1]

A substantial percentage of HFSens are suffering from Dorion Derangement Syndrome and will say nice things about pretty much anybody or anything that makes poor Pierre look bad.

This will soon change.

You should trademark the phrase and the DDS acronym.

A common trait amongst those suffering from the affliction is not liking being called out as suffering from it

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

Yes. Rival fans being complimentary means they don't view that team as a threat.

Sports equivalent of being friend-zoned.

Yep. As a Rams fan, I remember it became a huge meme when we were mired in 7-9 seasons, but opposing fans would always tell us that we were "going to be scary in a few years."

Nah, f*** that. Haven't arrived until people stop trying to feed us moral victories. We've had enough of those to last a lifetime.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

I think a lot of fans don't realize how impressive the front office of the early Senators was. As you say, they were given nothing in the expansion draft. And only missed the playoffs 4 times before qualifying in 97, kicking off what was at times a dominant 11-year stretch as a contender.

And they did it without drafting any elite players with their early picks, with the exception of Yashin:

1992 - Yashin 2nd overall
1993 - Daigle 1st overall
1994 - Bonk 3rd overall
1995 - Berard 1st overall
1996 - Phillips 1st overall

I have a lot of respect for how well the early franchise was run and for what they accomplished.

...didn't we also draft a dead guy back in the 1990s?

In all seriousness, I get it. I'm not a Dorion booster, either. But we can't laugh off the high picks of the past few years of Brady, Timmy and Sanderson, than talk about the greatness of the original management team picking obvious picks in the top 5 back in those days. It's the same thing.

Making a good choice in the top 5 should be standard. We shouldn't be giving bonus points to any management team hitting on a good player at that spot (unless it's a truly brutal draft, and even then...).

 

[JD1]

...didn't we also draft a dead guy back in the 1990s?

In all seriousness, I get it. I'm not a Dorion booster, either. But we can't laugh off the high picks of the past few years of Brady, Timmy and Sanderson, than talk about the greatness of the original management team picking obvious picks in the top 5 back in those days. It's the same thing.

Making a good choice in the top 5 should be standard. We shouldn't be giving bonus points to any management team hitting on a good player at that spot (unless it's a truly brutal draft, and even then...).

Ya, I think it was Mel Bridgeman that drafted the dead guy.

But ya I think you can give bonus points for top 5 drafting. Just look at Tkachuk. Had they drafted Zadina, I'm thinking on draft day there might well have been less criticism than there was over the Tkachuk pick. Look at Sanderson. Off the top of my head, they could have taken Drysdale, Rossi, Lundell, Perfetti....all those guys likely applauded on draft day. I'd take Sanderson over all of them. Personally I wanted Drysdale. So ya, I think you can hand out bonus points for being right even in the top 5

 

[Micklebot]

Ya, I think it was Mel Bridgeman that drafted the dead guy.

But ya I think you can give bonus points for top 5 drafting. Just look at Tkachuk. Had they drafted Zadina, I'm thinking on draft day there might well have been less criticism than there was over the Tkachuk pick. Look at Sanderson. Off the top of my head, they could have taken Drysdale, Rossi, Lundell, Perfetti....all those guys likely applauded on draft day. I'd take Sanderson over all of them. Personally I wanted Drysdale. So ya, I think you can hand out bonus points for being right even in the top 5

Agreed, I think you need to look at picks on a case by case basis, not just exclude top 5 because they should be gimmes

I mean, had EDM chosen Rielly or Lindholm in 2012 instead of Yakupov, they'd have been absolutely eviscerated, but it would have been a great pick in hindsight,

Similarly as you pointed out, Tkachuk over Zadina looks good (though Tkachuk was arguably the higher ranked despite HF's opinion), or Sanderson over Drysdale.

 

[Xspyrit]

He's missed the playoffs 6 years in a row, has a capped-out non-playoff team, and one of the worst farms in the league.

What about no picks until round 4 this year? Or no first last year? Or completely missed out on their first in 2021? 3 years without a great prospect from the first round

Yes DeBrincat and Chychrun but DeBrincat will either be traded or overpaid, and Chychrun has 2 years left. It might still be worth it but damn it's risky

But it's not even that, the complete lack of foresight... so many things I have called out when they happened, then it materializes during the season... then after Dorion is like "I think we need to do that"

And the asset management, the pro scouting, the coaching staff, the complete lack of 2-way emphasis for roster construction

But he made a few splash moves and Trent Mann had some very good drafts so he gets a pass for some

 

[Micklebot]

What about no picks until round 4 this year? Or no first last year? Or completely missed out on their first in 2021? 3 years without a great prospect from the first round

Yes DeBrincat and Chychrun but DeBrincat will either be traded or overpaid, and Chychrun has 2 years left. It might still be worth it but damn it's risky

But it's not even that, the complete lack of foresight... so many things I have called out when they happened, then it materializes during the season... then after Dorion is like "I think we need to do that"

And the asset management, the pro scouting, the coaching staff, the complete lack of 2-way emphasis for roster construction

But he made a few splash moves and Trent Mann had some very good drafts so he gets a pass for some

I think you need to let things play out before you can say no picks until the 4 round, particularly since you're also assuming DeBrincat will either be overpaid or traded.

This offseason could be pretty interesting, maybe DeBrincat signs a fair deal, similar to Fiala's, alternatively a DeBrincat trade won't likely return the 1st, 2nd, 3rd we gave up, but if it gets something similar to the Fiala trade (mid to late 1st and a prospect) then we use the cap space to sign a guy like Bertuzzi as a replacement, suddenly you're looking pretty good.

Now, maybe Dorion isn't the guy to get those deals done, but when you write off the assets he acquired before allowing things to play out, of course things look bleak.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I think you need to let things play out before you can say no picks until the 4 round, particularly since you're also assuming DeBrincat will either be overpaid or traded.

This offseason could be pretty interesting, maybe DeBrincat signs a fair deal, similar to Fiala's, alternatively a DeBrincat trade won't likely return the 1st, 2nd, 3rd we gave up, but if it gets something similar to the Fiala trade (mid to late 1st and a prospect) then we use the cap space to sign a guy like Bertuzzi as a replacement, suddenly you're looking pretty good.

Now, maybe Dorion isn't the guy to get those deals done, but when you write off the assets he acquired before allowing things to play out, of course things look bleak.

There sure is a lot up in the air with this team. Should be an interesting summer. Not re-signing DeBrincat could lead to a very different look next season.

 

[inthewings]

...didn't we also draft a dead guy back in the 1990s?

In all seriousness, I get it. I'm not a Dorion booster, either. But we can't laugh off the high picks of the past few years of Brady, Timmy and Sanderson, than talk about the greatness of the original management team picking obvious picks in the top 5 back in those days. It's the same thing.

Making a good choice in the top 5 should be standard. We shouldn't be giving bonus points to any management team hitting on a good player at that spot (unless it's a truly brutal draft, and even then...).

I agree. My point was actually that the team that was built in the 90s didn’t really get the kind of impact talent you would expect from 5 straight years picking top-3. Which makes the success of the team more impressive yo me.

 

[Xspyrit]

I think you need to let things play out before you can say no picks until the 4 round, particularly since you're also assuming DeBrincat will either be overpaid or traded.

This offseason could be pretty interesting, maybe DeBrincat signs a fair deal, similar to Fiala's, alternatively a DeBrincat trade won't likely return the 1st, 2nd, 3rd we gave up, but if it gets something similar to the Fiala trade (mid to late 1st and a prospect) then we use the cap space to sign a guy like Bertuzzi as a replacement, suddenly you're looking pretty good.

Now, maybe Dorion isn't the guy to get those deals done, but when you write off the assets he acquired before allowing things to play out, of course things look bleak.

DeBrincat's situation could end up fine but it was not the right move from the start. Should have used those assets for Chychrun (or even better Ekholm or another RHD) instead and go after a guy like Bjorkstrand for example

My point was more that after using all these picks, having our prospect pool plummets like it did, we should still be playing right now.

Anyway, Dorion's work all these years has been really bad. I don't even know how to explain it anymore

Thankfully he's a bit lucky (Giroux, Karlsson trade, started the rebuild with great assets/prospects) as it could have been way WORSE

 

[Ice-Tray]

Naw, DBC was a solid trade, and when he signs his long term deal we’ll be set up top. Hard to take posts seriously that think it was the wrong move to trade a 7oa and scrap picks for one of the top goal scoring wingers since he entered the league.

Imagine griping about that. Truly we have arrived if these are the worries going forward.

 

[MrGuyPerson]

Guys I am not sure we are discussing the correct things at this point. Right now everyone's main focus needs to be Ryan Reynolds group winning the bid, then scalping the D. O. Double G. From Neko Sparks and adding him to the winning side "Welcome to Ottawa" will be next level.

Snoop + Deadpool = hit tv show
Hit TV show = top free agent destination.
Let's make magic.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Guys I am not sure we are discussing the correct things at this point. Right now everyone's main focus needs to be Ryan Reynolds group winning the bid, then scalping the D. O. Double G. From Neko Sparks and adding him to the winning side "Welcome to Ottawa" will be next level.

Snoop + Deadpool = hit tv show
Hit TV show = top free agent destination.
Let's make magic.

Can’t the TV Show include the Rock as well.

 

[Ice-Tray]

At some point we need the confidence to tell the word’s stars to piss off and find another ride.

 

[Xspyrit]

Naw, DBC was a solid trade, and when he signs his long term deal we’ll be set up top. Hard to take posts seriously that think it was the wrong move to trade a 7oa and scrap picks for one of the top goal scoring wingers since he entered the league.

Imagine griping about that. Truly we have arrived if these are the worries going forward.

It was not a bad move at all in itself, value wise

But it was not the RIGHT move. What we needed is a Top-4 RHD and have more 2-way ability in our forward group to help out the defense/goalies

It's simple really

Chychrun/Ekholm/any good RHD + Bjorkstrand/any good 2-way forward + Paul + Brown >>>>>>>> Hamonic + DeBrincat + Joseph + Motte/Gambrell

Oh yeah and Gustavsson instead of Talbot so we would have had the cap space for the above. We'd be playing right now despite the coaching disadvantage.


I don't expect you (or Dorion) to understand or acknowledge all that, but for the benefit of others. Dorion has proven it for years.

 

[BankStreetParade]

A substantial percentage of HFSens are suffering from Dorion Derangement Syndrome and will say nice things about pretty much anybody or anything that makes poor Pierre look bad.

This will soon change.

It's so true. Some of the people on here have become unhinged with hatred. Everything is awful here but teams in a similar position to us are flourishing and have bright, promising futures, right?

Every team that outperforms expectations in any year is suddenly the barometer for success with which to compare ourselves. Happens all the time. Every waiver pickup with a modicum of success becomes a grievance for those with DDS. Middling teams have "genius" GMs. Why? No one knows. Or, at least, no one can clearly articulate why.

We take away credit when it's due and heap criticism when it's not.
"We've been bad for 6 years!!!"
Ok? I guess if there's a way we can be a playoff bubble team while also guaranteeing ourselves a lottery pick each year, I'd love to explore that route for future tear-downs.

There's no consideration for circumstance. Other teams have done longer tear downs, been out of the playoffs longer, had worse results over a similar amount of time and what did they get for it? The Ovechkins, Crosbys, Kanes, Matthews, McDavids and MacKinnons of the world. We got a 3OA pick which, only through sheer luck, has proven to be the best player from that draft, a 4OA and a 5OA.

We had one of the cheapest and worst owners in NHL history and it's like he's a footnote now, a passing anecdote about micromanagement and inept operation of a professional sports franchise. It's hard to understand how they've forgotten so quickly when they spent years talking about the billboards and raging against him. But instead of giving credit to the guy who had to walk that fine of a line, they set it aside and crucify him for every misdeed, real or perceived.

It's time to move on from Dorion because every organization eventually needs a new voice, a new leader and a new set of eyes to evaluate everything from top to bottom. But can we stop spending this much time microanalyzing every trade, roster move and draft pick ad infinitum? We've already settled all of it. It's been hashed and re-hashed. Let's look forward. There's a bright future ahead and all some of you can do is continue to wallow in the misery of what has already passed. It's time to stop grieving. Be hopeful for a change.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

It's so true. Some of the people on here have become unhinged with hatred. Everything is awful here but teams in a similar position to us are flourishing and have bright, promising futures, right?

Every team that outperforms expectations in any year is suddenly the barometer for success with which to compare ourselves. Happens all the time. Every waiver pickup with a modicum of success becomes a grievance for those with DDS. Middling teams have "genius" GMs. Why? No one knows. Or, at least, no one can clearly articulate why.

We take away credit when it's due and heap criticism when it's not.
"We've been bad for 6 years!!!"
Ok? I guess if there's a way we can be a playoff bubble team while also guaranteeing ourselves a lottery pick each year, I'd love to explore that route for future tear-downs.

There's no consideration for circumstance. Other teams have done longer tear downs, been out of the playoffs longer, had worse results over a similar amount of time and what did they get for it? The Ovechkins, Crosbys, Kanes, Matthews, McDavids and MacKinnons of the world. We got a 3OA pick which, only through sheer luck, has proven to be the best player from that draft, a 4OA and a 5OA.

We had one of the cheapest and worst owners in NHL history and it's like he's a footnote now, a passing anecdote about micromanagement and inept operation of a professional sports franchise. It's hard to understand how they've forgotten so quickly when they spent years talking about the billboards and raging against him. But instead of giving credit to the guy who had to walk that fine of a line, they set it aside and crucify him for every misdeed, real or perceived.

It's time to move on from Dorion because every organization eventually needs a new voice, a new leader and a new set of eyes to evaluate everything from top to bottom. But can we stop spending this much time microanalyzing every trade, roster move and draft pick ad infinitum? We've already settled all of it. It's been hashed and re-hashed. Let's look forward. There's a bright future ahead and all some of you can do is continue to wallow in the misery of what has already passed. It's time to stop grieving. Be hopeful for a change.

Almost everyone has moved on from Dorion. Soon will be old news.

He's a dead man, but some people want to bring back a dead man is what's confusing.

 

[bicboi64]

It was not a bad move at all in itself, value wise

But it was not the RIGHT move. What we needed is a Top-4 RHD and have more 2-way ability in our forward group to help out the defense/goalies

Pretty much this. The value given for Cat wasn't bad by any means, but the issue comes down to him being a luxury, especially if Dorion knows he's signing Giroux. The 7th overall for Chychrun, or any other defender that shores up our blueline makes us a better team than Cat and more equipped to deal with injuries to our depth. Not having an extension in place is just salt to the wound

 

[JungleBeat]

Why is he still employed. Get rid of him and Mann asap.

 

[Knave]

We take away credit when it's due and heap criticism when it's not.
"We've been bad for 6 years!!!"
Ok? I guess if there's a way we can be a playoff bubble team while also guaranteeing ourselves a lottery pick each year, I'd love to explore that route for future tear-downs.

There's no consideration for circumstance. Other teams have done longer tear downs, been out of the playoffs longer, had worse results over a similar amount of time and what did they get for it?

They got a new GM before 6 years of missed playoffs happened. Have we? No, we have not.

Circumstances have been considered. This isn't about whether or not I want the Ottawa Senators to fold as a franchise. This is about getting a new GM.

 

[BankStreetParade]

They got a new GM before 6 years of missed playoffs happened. Have we? No, we have not.

Circumstances have been considered. This isn't about whether or not I want the Ottawa Senators to fold as a franchise. This is about getting a new GM.

You keep saying 6 years but you don't actually understand what you're saying. If the boss of a company says to their employee, who happens to be the manager of the business, "I need you to cut costs immediately and put a plan in place to recruit young, inexperienced talent that we can develop", it would be kinda ridiculous for that boss to then say "hey, things haven't been good ever since we got rid of all those senior employees that I told you to fire and replaced them with these young, inexperienced guys".

Point is: you can't ask a GM to tear it down to the studs and build from the draft and then give them shit for not being good for the first few years. We had 3 top 5 picks (3, 4, 5) from that tear down and 1 of them just finished their rookie season. If the point of a rebuild is to draft high, get great young talent and develop them, it seems kinda insane to say the results haven't been there before you've gotten all of those high draft picks into the lineup. So basically what you're saying is fire Dorion because the team didn't make the playoffs this year. If that's a conversation you want to have, let's have it. But stop with this 6 years bullshit like you don't know what the plan was or how rebuilds work.