Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Mingus Dew]

You keep saying 6 years but you don't actually understand what you're saying. If the boss of a company says to their employee, who happens to be the manager of the business, "I need you to cut costs immediately and put a plan in place to recruit young, inexperienced talent that we can develop", it would be kinda ridiculous for that boss to then say "hey, things haven't been good ever since we got rid of all those senior employees that I told you to fire and replaced them with these young, inexperienced guys".

Point is: you can't ask a GM to tear it down to the studs and build from the draft and then give them shit for not being good for the first few years. We had 3 top 5 picks (3, 4, 5) from that tear down and 1 of them just finished their rookie season. If the point of a rebuild is to draft high, get great young talent and develop them, it seems kinda insane to say the results haven't been there before you've gotten all of those high draft picks into the lineup. So basically what you're saying is fire Dorion because the team didn't make the playoffs this year. If that's a conversation you want to have, let's have it. But stop with this 6 years bullshit like you don't know what the plan was or how rebuilds work.

But again Dorion was kind of given the keys to the kingdom under certain circumstances. He was a former scout (a development and talent evaluation guy) tasked with guiding the rebuild. He was the rebuild GM.

Dorion hasn't really done anything to prove that he knows how to GM a competitive NHL team. Like yeah maybe he can do it but if money is no longer an object why take the risk? Why not bring in someone with a track record of playoff success or something like that?

 

[JD1]

But again Dorion was kind of given the keys to the kingdom under certain circumstances. He was a former scout (a development and talent evaluation guy) tasked with guiding the rebuild. He was the rebuild GM.

Dorion hasn't really done anything to prove that he knows how to GM a competitive NHL team. Like yeah maybe he can do it but if money is no longer an object why take the risk? Why not bring in someone with a track record of playoff success or something like that?

Ok, so that's a much different take than what Bank St was posting. Your point is a valid one. Certainly debatable

 

[Ice-Tray]

But again Dorion was kind of given the keys to the kingdom under certain circumstances. He was a former scout (a development and talent evaluation guy) tasked with guiding the rebuild. He was the rebuild GM.

Dorion hasn't really done anything to prove that he knows how to GM a competitive NHL team. Like yeah maybe he can do it but if money is no longer an object why take the risk? Why not bring in someone with a track record of playoff success or something like that?

Then again, why fire a guy without giving him a chance to see it through though?

If he hasn’t failed to meet the rising expectations throughout the rebuild why exactly are we firing him?

I’m not convinced that because some fans don’t THINK that he can do well in the next phase Is a good enough reason.

Better to give the man a chance.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Lengthy , Informative ... Read it before you trash it.


He breaks down drafting , trading, contract signing, Best moves, Worst Moves and provides his conclusions.

Still reading it .. I did mention Lengthy

Finished it. Really comprehensive and fair piece of work. This is the most complete article on Dorion's body of work that you will find.

 

[Hale The Villain]

"Looking at the first and second rounds, Dorion has dealt five first-round selections and 10 second-rounders in his seven years in the general manager role while securing six first-rounders and 13 second-round picks over that same stretch of time."

That's pretty shocking. Dorion has already managed to trade away almost the same amount of top 2 round picks he acquired after a engaging in a massive tear-down rebuild, and we haven't even established ourselves as a playoff team yet.

 

[Masked]

"Looking at the first and second rounds, Dorion has dealt five first-round selections and 10 second-rounders in his seven years in the general manager role while securing six first-rounders and 13 second-round picks over that same stretch of time."

That's pretty shocking. Dorion has already managed to trade away almost the same amount of top 2 round picks he acquired after a engaging in a massive tear-down rebuild, and we haven't even established ourselves as a playoff team yet.

Not really. He traded firsts for firsts in the Logan Brown and JBD picks. Some of those second rounders were used to trade up/back as well.

Assen na yo!

 

[Hale The Villain]

Not really. He traded firsts for firsts in the Logan Brown and JBD picks. Some of those second rounders were used to trade up/back as well.

Assen na yo!

You're mistaken.

Trades up or down are counted in both categories, so the 2016 and 2018 1sts were counted as traded away, but the higher 2016 1st and lower 2018 1st we added to the acquired category.

 

[Golden_Jet]

You're mistaken.

Trades up or down are counted in both categories, so the 2016 and 2018 1sts were counted as traded away, but the higher 2016 1st and lower 2018 1st we added to the acquired category.

Why are you using “we”

 

[Hale The Villain]

Why are you using “we”

Good question.

Should have been "he", as in Graeme Nichols.

 

[swiftwin]

Lengthy , Informative ... Read it before you trash it.


He breaks down drafting , trading, contract signing, Best moves, Worst Moves and provides his conclusions.

Still reading it .. I did mention Lengthy

Finished it. Really comprehensive and fair piece of work. This is the most complete article on Dorion's body of work that you will find.

My issue with that article, is that, once again, they treat this like it's a video game, and focus solely on asset management, and not on risk management. That's not how businesses in the real world are run.

 

[JungleBeat]

His time is coming, can’t wait until he’s gone!

 

[Cosmix]

But again Dorion was kind of given the keys to the kingdom under certain circumstances. He was a former scout (a development and talent evaluation guy) tasked with guiding the rebuild. He was the rebuild GM.

Dorion hasn't really done anything to prove that he knows how to GM a competitive NHL team. Like yeah maybe he can do it but if money is no longer an object why take the risk? Why not bring in someone with a track record of playoff success or something like that?

And Dorion does have a record of trades and results that the decision to fire/retain could be based upon.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

My issue with that article, is that, once again, they treat this like it's a video game, and focus solely on asset management, and not on risk management. That's not how businesses in the real world are run.

Is that all? Maybe you could take a section that deals with Asset Management but does not have Risk Management as a part and write that part in

 

[Ice-Tray]

My issue with these types of articles is that in the end it’s fun but meaningless unless this is done for all or several GMs and a comparison is done.

A GMs performance is not weighed against a fans estimation of perfection, especially a jaded fan like this guy. Rather it’s a comparisons with other GMs and their relative performances, along with considerations for the context that each GM operates in.

The reality is that all GMs have a laundry list of gambles that didn’t pan out, big moves that flopped, and various moves that worked out to varying degrees.

Add in a healthy dose of luck and in the end even a cup win isn't even a definitive sign of the ‘best’ GM. Still, the best overall meaningful evaluation of a GM is not a list of moves, but rather what the team looks like on the ice. This is why to me Dorion continues to hold his job. Regardless of how many minor moves rustle jimmie’s, the team on the ice is widely regarded as one of the very best up and coming squads, and we still have a handful of intriguing prospects to add into depth roles.

If/when the roster bringing to falter before ‘success’ is achieved, that’s when we’ll be able to start to accurately evaluate PD’s role here as GM, in my opinion. At this point folks are judging the artist before the work is complete. Not to say we can’t/shouldn’t evaluate in the fly, this is a hockey forum after all, but it is premature no matter how we try and slice it.

It was a nice spread of roster moves framed by a singular fan perspective though, which is interesting in and of itself.

 

[DrEasy]

Lengthy , Informative ... Read it before you trash it.


He breaks down drafting , trading, contract signing, Best moves, Worst Moves and provides his conclusions.

Still reading it .. I did mention Lengthy

Finished it. Really comprehensive and fair piece of work. This is the most complete article on Dorion's body of work that you will find.

It's very comprehensive... and very depressing.

 

[HSF]

If dubas walks it’s time to bring him in

 

[Masked]

If dubas walks it’s time to bring him in

The guy who bet on Matt Murray as his #1 goalie? Yeah, that'll be a no.....

Assen na yo!

 

[HSF]

I

The guy who bet on Matt Murray as his #1 goalie? Yeah, that'll be a no.....

Assen na yo!

He was smart enough bring in Sammy though

I wasn’t surprised to see someone take a chance on Murray with his resume. I mean our GM did the same . They can easily buy him out and not worry

 

[Senscore]

Bringing in Murray was a bad move, but he was smart enough to pass on fan favorite Jack Campbell.

At least the Murray contract can be bought out with few problems. Can the Oilers do the same for their backup?

 

[Masked]

He was smart enough bring in Sammy though

I wasn’t surprised to see someone take a chance on Murray with his resume. I mean our GM did the same . They can easily buy him out and not worry

After what happened in Ottawa, no GM with Cup aspirations should be relying on Matt Murray for anything. Buying him out doesn't make up for this season when the Leafs had their best chance at a Cup run and they had Murray backing up their third stringer with the playoffs on the line.

Assen na yo!

 

[bert]

You keep saying 6 years but you don't actually understand what you're saying. If the boss of a company says to their employee, who happens to be the manager of the business, "I need you to cut costs immediately and put a plan in place to recruit young, inexperienced talent that we can develop", it would be kinda ridiculous for that boss to then say "hey, things haven't been good ever since we got rid of all those senior employees that I told you to fire and replaced them with these young, inexperienced guys".

Point is: you can't ask a GM to tear it down to the studs and build from the draft and then give them shit for not being good for the first few years. We had 3 top 5 picks (3, 4, 5) from that tear down and 1 of them just finished their rookie season. If the point of a rebuild is to draft high, get great young talent and develop them, it seems kinda insane to say the results haven't been there before you've gotten all of those high draft picks into the lineup. So basically what you're saying is fire Dorion because the team didn't make the playoffs this year. If that's a conversation you want to have, let's have it. But stop with this 6 years bullshit like you don't know what the plan was or how rebuilds work.

Your standards are so incredibly low its fascinating to read.

You are correct when you tear it down to the studs its going to take a while. But what they have coming out of it while trying to accelerate the process but still don't have the results is exactly why people want someone new. That on top of how obviously poor Dorions leadership is. When you tear it down like this have 6 straight top 10 picks and an additional 6 or 7 first rounders you should have better results or more in the pipeline.

 

[bert]

If dubas walks it’s time to bring him in

Hahaha ffs why?!? He's an embarrassment yelling at fans, temper tantrums in the box. He doesn't know what it takes. He traded for Matt Murray... He signed mrazek and needed a first to get rid of him. He has done absolutely nothing with a team of superstars he inherited. Why not look at someone who has had actual success. The Matthews Tavares and Marner contracts are horrid. Overpaid or not enough term now that franchise is screwed. The leafs have won one playoff round in 7 years since he got there now matthews is walking to ufa at 27 years old..... It's like Stockholm syndrome for some sens fans with this leafs team They are the definition of failure. Dubas finally recognized what they were missing this trade deadline. He had had every single possible competitive advantage and has done nothing with it.

I

He was smart enough bring in Sammy though

I wasn’t surprised to see someone take a chance on Murray with his resume. I mean our GM did the same . They can easily buy him out and not worry

No one wants Murray not only is he an unreliable bandaid but he sucks in the room too. Imagine paying attention to this player the last 3 years and thinking anyone else wants him. You need to start following the rest of the league and not just the leafs and sens.

 

[Tuna99]

Bringing in Murray was a bad move, but he was smart enough to pass on fan favorite Jack Campbell.

At least the Murray contract can be bought out with few problems. Can the Oilers do the same for their backup?

Leafs have also been known to take NHL players and LTIR them again their will like Jared Cowen

Murray has an injury to his want to play hockey. People have said it’s a broken heart, or he lost the love of the game from criticism in Pitt, could just be so many minor injuries. The great thing about sports is people come in all shapes and sizes but Murray doesn’t look like someone who wants do the splits and then take a 100mph rubber disk to the head and bounce back for more.

 

[HSF]

Hahaha ffs why?!? He's an embarrassment yelling at fans, temper tantrums in the box. He doesn't know what it takes. He traded for Matt Murray... He signed mrazek and needed a first to get rid of him. He has done absolutely nothing with a team of superstars he inherited. Why not look at someone who has had actual success. The Matthews Tavares and Marner contracts are horrid. Overpaid or not enough term now that franchise is screwed. The leafs have won one playoff round in 7 years since he got there now matthews is walking to ufa at 27 years old..... It's like Stockholm syndrome for some sens fans with this leafs team They are the definition of failure. Dubas finally recognized what they were missing this trade deadline. He had had every single possible competitive advantage and has done nothing with it.


No one wants Murray not only is he an unreliable bandaid but he sucks in the room too. Imagine paying attention to this player the last 3 years and thinking anyone else wants him. You need to start following the rest of the league and not just the leafs and sens.

You do know that buffalo tried to trade for him right?

Murray when he played this year was actually good. The problem is he barely plays. His contract is pretty buyout friendly and Ottawa retained so it actually is not big deal for Toronto for also got a 3rd round pick to take him

 

[Icelevel]

Lengthy , Informative ... Read it before you trash it.

He breaks down drafting , trading, contract signing, Best moves, Worst Moves and provides his conclusions.

Still reading it .. I did mention Lengthy

Finished it. Really comprehensive and fair piece of work. This is the most complete article on Dorion's body of work that you will find.

And with each paragraph it gets crazier and crazier that he wasn’t fired long ago. So much cringe. So much disaster so much incompetence. Thank god for luck in some cases.
Boy did he push progress back.
Sure he was financially limited but does that result in a smart man saying out loud that his proudest day as a gm was trading mark stone for Erik brannstrom?
Obviously not a smart man and you need a smart man as gm.