Now add in defensive statistics and it's mind blowing there is such a gap. Edmonton defensive is top 5 statistically this year and Skinner is having a worse season then last year
Friedman: Gibson is interested in Carolina, or Edmonton
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Zegs2sendhelp
Registered User
- Jul 25, 2012
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Yep having a reliable back stop would go a long way for oilers.
I think its a good situation for oilers, and for gibson if the price is right.
Idk what PV's ask is.... but Gibson would likely give the oilers team a lot of confidence their goalie can cover for them when they potentially make mistakes.... which they prob dont feel right now.
Burnt Biscuits
Registered User
- May 2, 2010
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Right from the outset I disagree with the assessment of he's a higher end goalie, which is very much why I thought your list and trade expectations were outlandish. Also as an aside most of those trades didn't exactly work out very well for the acquiring team, which compounds my thought that its probably not a good idea to pay that much.
I will fully conceed Gibson has high end talent, but not high end results, in 5 of the last 6 seasons he has provided below league average goaltending results. I've also read all the excuses of our D is shit, but I see Dostal, Stolarz, and even an ancient Ryan Miller outperformed him at various points during the past 6 seasons behind that exact same defense. Then I'm reading things like he stops trying when he sees it's a lost cause, that sounds an awful lot like he quit on his teammates; to which my thought is why do we want a quitter on our team? If we are down 3 games to nothing in the Stanley Cup Final like last season, is he going to be like this is too hard I'm not going to try anymore?
You want us to pay a 1st round pick and a prospect for that!? A guy we can't even count on to show up and nah bro, trust me, he'll be better on a good team isn't a convincing enough argument to pay that kind of heavy price.
Burnt Biscuits
Registered User
- May 2, 2010
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I'm going to provide a rebuttal to the comment I know is coming, well if you don't want to pay our price we'll just keep him. That's fine by me, the Oilers have come very close to winning a Cup with below average goaltending, I'm fine with acquiring Talbot instead, he doesn't have the high end of Gibson, but he's a quality human being with no diva tendencies, who quietly provides consistent above average goaltending and we know fits with our culture, plus he'll likely cost half as much to acquire.
Now I'm going to offer a piece of free unsolicited advice, winning teams start with Winning Culture.
Sure high end talent is necessary to truly excel and get to the point where you can contend for Cups, but all the talent in the world will fail if the culture and habits aren't where they need to be.
Step 1 of building a winning culture is get rid of anyone who doesn't want to be there and all divas who put themselves above the team, especially anyone who quits on their teammates or gives half hearted efforts or who shirks accountability. To not do this is to let rot fester in your organization.
That isn't to say winning teams don't have room for divas, but you can only bring them in when you have a strong tight knit leadership group with an established winning culture and a firm concept on what it means and what is required to play your particular brand of hockey. As an Oiler fan I'm well aware of what it is like to have tons of talented young players, but never feel like you are taking that next step and while your players will flash their talent, put up points they will inevitably not come close to living up to their full potential if the culture isn't in the right place and the players don't hold each other accountable.
I will say I loved Taylor Hall as a player and the Larsson Hall trade was brutal value, but while Hall did want to remain an Oiler he had diva tendencies and didn't handle being held accountable well, you need to cut all players like that from your team especially when you have a young core. It doesn't matter that you don't get the proper value of what you think they are worth, what you gain from the next generation of players being developed properly is worth taking that initial value hit and I honestly didn't see it or internalize that for probably 7-8 years after the trade, but it's clear as day now being on the other side of things.
Now I'm going to offer a piece of free unsolicited advice, winning teams start with Winning Culture.
Sure high end talent is necessary to truly excel and get to the point where you can contend for Cups, but all the talent in the world will fail if the culture and habits aren't where they need to be.
Step 1 of building a winning culture is get rid of anyone who doesn't want to be there and all divas who put themselves above the team, especially anyone who quits on their teammates or gives half hearted efforts or who shirks accountability. To not do this is to let rot fester in your organization.
That isn't to say winning teams don't have room for divas, but you can only bring them in when you have a strong tight knit leadership group with an established winning culture and a firm concept on what it means and what is required to play your particular brand of hockey. As an Oiler fan I'm well aware of what it is like to have tons of talented young players, but never feel like you are taking that next step and while your players will flash their talent, put up points they will inevitably not come close to living up to their full potential if the culture isn't in the right place and the players don't hold each other accountable.
I will say I loved Taylor Hall as a player and the Larsson Hall trade was brutal value, but while Hall did want to remain an Oiler he had diva tendencies and didn't handle being held accountable well, you need to cut all players like that from your team especially when you have a young core. It doesn't matter that you don't get the proper value of what you think they are worth, what you gain from the next generation of players being developed properly is worth taking that initial value hit and I honestly didn't see it or internalize that for probably 7-8 years after the trade, but it's clear as day now being on the other side of things.
Mr Positive
Cap Crunch Incoming
- Nov 20, 2013
- 39,007
- 20,072
With how the threads going it would be funny if he went to Carolina
if im a GM, my response would be good luck in the PO's.....i would fully understand anyone's feeling's in regards to gibson, but there is nothing anyone could say about gibson other then "we think" in regards to him playing for a better team......no trade is 100% you will get what you think, it is always a gamble.... i think the ducks are perfectly fine keeping him especially if this team can turn the corner, but the oilers need to ask the question, "are we 100% confident with our goalies going into the PO's?".....and you guys might be, i dont pay that much attention TBH, but if not (and it could be some other player), they need to be doing everything possible.
- Oct 9, 2012
- 34,566
- 33,859
So no data to refute the list of goalie trades and the returns they’ve gotten. Got it.
I'm torn. Should I trust Elliot Friedman or a random poster on HFBoards who still has a profile pic of Gerard Butler from a movie I walked out on...and 18 years after he was last relevant?
I could swear you were like the biggest Stuart Skinner defender on this entire board at one point. Now you're saying he's not even appealing as a backup on a non-playoff team that's struggles to make the cap floor? Ouch. I don't disagree with you on that point, but ouch.
I do agree that Dustin Schwartz is a bigger problem to this team than Skinner though. The hope is that whoever comes in can play well before Schwartz ruins them...or better yet, just has their own coach.
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- Jan 9, 2009
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Trust Friedman. Now I haven't listened to Friedman's statement but according to the thread title Gibson is interested in (playing for) Edmonton and I'm sure he is..... But.... is Anaheim interested in trading Gibson to Edmonton? Probably not as I doubt Edmonton will offer anything the Ducks want. Let's admit it. Edmonton has one of the worst prospects pool in the league.
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I've said for a while now, someone's opinion on Gibson is a great litmus test for what their opinion on goaltending in general is worth. And oh boy are these Oiler fans who'd rather have Skinner delivering on that
We have Matthew Savoie and...um...well...Beau Akey played some games for Team Canada, and Paul Fischer got some minutes in for Team USA at the World Juniors.
Basically we'll have to offer our 2026 1st? possibly Adam Henrique if you'll take him back. Possibly our 2024 1st in Sam O'Riley who the previous regime traded up to bring in.
To be fair, the number of Skinner defenders seems to be rapidly diminishing, it took way too f***ing long if you ask me, but the Edmonton sports media is only now discussing the possibility of upgrading on a guy who has had an .870 or worse in 35% of his games this season...
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Talbot is better than no move, but might be just as inconsistent as Stu. Talbot has 12 Games with a save percentage under .870 in 31 games, so that means in 39% of his games he has a save percentage under .870, which is worse than 35% of Stu's games being under .870. The only asterix is that, much like all the other available goalies, he's playing behind a much worse defense in Detroit. Talbot has also had 4 games under .800 (Stu has 5), so he's prone to collapses as well and even had a Stu-like implosion in his last game. Gibson and Vejmelka look like steadier options.
However, Talbot is 16th in GSAx per 60 (minimum 20 games), and actually right behind Vejmelka and ahead of teammate Lyon. Skinner is 35th in GSAx per 60 (minimum 20 games) and has only played in six more games.
Here's how Talbot fares against some top teams:
vs FLO (.953 - 41 saves)
vs LAK (.920 & .925)
BUT...
vs TOR (.762...which is worse than either of Stu's games against Toronto)
That said, if there is no other deal on the table, go for it. Better to add Talbot for cheap than stay the course. But he would be my distant fourth choice based on who I assume is available...
WhatTheDuck
9 - 20 - 8
The "Gibson was outperformed by his backups" argument has been shot down countless times, it's simply untrue outside of ONE of those seasons (last year). Stolarz and Miller did not "outperform" Gibson simply by having slightly higher stats - he had to play twice as often against tougher competition. Give them the same usage and watch the numbers change. Playing 25 games mostly against other bottom feeders is not the same as having to be the starting goalie for the worst defensive team in the cap era. Way cushier usage than Gibson has had, it makes for terrible comparison. Take 2021-22 for example. You are claiming Stolarz "outplayed Gibson" in a year where Stolarz played a career high of 28 games, had ten wins against other non playoff clubs and a whopping two wins all season against teams who made playoffs. 25% of his wins were against San Jose.
Honestly I think a lot of you fail to put Gibson's numbers into proper context. He has been the starting goalie for some of the worst teams in the modern era, and still put up better numbers than what you are getting from Skinner behind your strong club. The list of goalies who could have stood in for 50+ games behind those teams and managed a .900 SV% is actually quite short, A lot of goalies don't have the durability or consistency to play that much behind even a good club, let alone getting shelled every night. We aren't talking about a regular bad team, they were historically bad defensively with almost zero counter attack. A .900 sv% was an accomplishment for a starter behind those teams.
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Kaners PPGs
Registered User
Let's be honest here; if Gibson were an Edmonton Oiler you'd be saying in every relevant thread that he is among worst goaltenders in the league with the worst contract and has negative value.
KeithIsActuallyBad
SPEEN!
There's a difference between thinking he's better than others say he is, and thinking he doesn't offer much value to a team that already has an up and coming goalie.
Plus simply trading Gibson for Skinner is too risky given Gibson's shaky history. I know that Eakins was a shit coach but he still had alarmingly bad numbers as recently as last year when Eakins was gone. In fact they were significantly worse than the previous year.
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- Oct 9, 2012
- 34,566
- 33,859
, that’s why I continually say I would gladly take SkinnerYour list is flawed because none of the goalies on it had multiple consecutive years of poor performance, nor did they have an extremely risky contract attached. Also, only one of them was over age 30:
Kuemper- Age 31. Years of 0.925, 0.928, and 0.907 before the trade.
Andersen- Age 26. Years of 0.923, 0.914, and 0.919 before the trade.
Jones- Age 25. Years of 0.934 and 0.906.
Lehner- Age 24. Years of 0.936, 0.913 and 0.905 before the trade.
Schneider- Age 27. Years of 0.929, 0.936, and 0.927 before the trade.
Varlamov- Age 23. Years of 0.918, 0.909, and 0.924 before the trade.
In fact, you cherry-picked the highest goalie returns of the last 15 years, but strangely didn't include ones like the Matt Murray deal which saw him dumped with picks to Toronto for future considerations.
Murray- Years of 0.899, 0.893, and 0.906 before being dumped. 2 years of a $6.25M deal left at time of trade. Ottawa had to retain 23% to move him.
Gibson- Years of 0.899, 0.888, and currently 0.915. Has 3 years of a $6.4M deal left.
That one is significantly closer in context than any of the ones you provided. Again, it's a great mystery why you didn't include it.
WhatTheDuck
9 - 20 - 8
If anything, they should be looking at how they can afford a Gibson/Skinner tandem. With the latter only making 2.6M next year and the cap rising, they don't need to pay for a ton of retention in order to have both for next year.
Gibson/Skinner as 1A/B at a combined cost of around 7.5-8M sounds pretty good IMO
The Cup window for McDrai is getting smaller by the day. What matters is getting a goalie who is playing well now, not a year ago.
FiveTacos
Registered User
If you'll note, his first few months last season were pretty good ... he was over .900 for three months behind crap D. But like previous years, getting shelled nightly behind an inexperienced D and with very little offensive support, at some point he just wore down. Especially as everyone started getting injured, and games were pretty much a foregone conclusion by the 2nd period.
And this isn't just after a few months of playing on a team where the ice was tilted nightly. It's been YEARS of this crap. Prime Hasek would have had a hard time putting up numbers with recent Ducks teams. They were AVERAGING nearly 40 shots against. Nearly any game against a good offense like COL or EDM it was just hold your breath and hope the shots against don't go over 50.
This hasn't been one of those bad teams that plays scrappy D but can't score, or one of those bad teams that has some skill but has an awful defense. He's played behind the worst of both worlds ... this franchise in recent years has managed to give up the most shots in history, AND have the worst PP in history.
If he had equally bad number playing an extended period behind Edm, then yes we would be saying that. Because Edmonton >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anaheim over the last 5 years.
But that is entirely the point. Gibson has played behind historically bad defenses. That is not an exaggeration - in one season he literally faced the most shots of any goalie ever. And as a duck fan, I can tell you that an incredibly (and absurdly) high percentage of those shots where tap ins or other shots no goalie would ever stop. And those same teams didn't score goals either.
I'm ambivalent about trading Gibson. He's playing great and his contract is fine for the ducks. However, if the ducks can make a good deal for themselves, then he should go because we have Dostal.
If Edmonton/Carolina/?? don't want to step up with a good offer prior to the TDL, then the ducks should just keep Gibson. There should be lots of interest in the offseason as the new goalie contracts continue to increase in AAV. Over time, Gibson's solid play and short term contract with a now reasonable AAV only gains value (assuming he continues to play well).
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