General COVID-19 Talk #4 MOD Warning

[Maynard]

If the last 5 years have taught me anything, it's that empathy is dead.

Yep. Empathy has been hijacked by rugged individualism and fake ass patriotism.

 

[Schrute farms]

If one doesn't have such experiences, it's almost impossible to discuss or reason with them, unless they have empathy. It's also quite easy not to have empathy on an anonymous bulletin board.

If the last 5 years have taught me anything, it's that empathy is dead.

Well I'm not sure how or why you took my comment as a lack of empathy but ok -- people assume the worst these days i guess. We all have personal or family health (or related) issues that we learn to deal and live with during our short time here on earth. My wife has RA and thus she's one of those that are immediately impacted by CV with a dangerous pre-existing condition. We deal with it accordingly and find a way to live life happily while also being safe.

My comment was the "hope" that this now will move into someone that mainly impacts those at risk. In which case, those folks (& others) can do what's necessary by getting vaxxed and the "hope" that we get some functioning treatment for cases that need it so as to keep it a minor issue like the cold/flu. That's the "hope". Time will tell. But obviously these vaxs are not the game changer that was pushed -- CV is not going away completely to disappear simply due to getting a shot. So we have to learn to live with it like the cold/flu and "hopefully" it can be minimized with post-positive treatments to mitigate the harmful effects when you catch it.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Well I'm not sure how or why you took my comment as a lack of empathy but ok -- people assume the worst these days i guess. We all have personal or family health (or related) issues that we learn to deal and live with during our short time here on earth. My wife has RA and thus she's one of those that are immediately impacted by CV with a dangerous pre-existing condition. We deal with it accordingly and find a way to live life happily while also being safe.

My comment was the "hope" that this now will move into someone that mainly impacts those at risk. In which case, those folks (& others) can do what's necessary by getting vaxxed and the "hope" that we get some functioning treatment for cases that need it so as to keep it a minor issue like the cold/flu. That's the "hope". Time will tell. But obviously these vaxs are not the game changer that was pushed -- CV is not going away completely to disappear simply due to getting a shot. So we have to learn to live with it like the cold/flu and "hopefully" it can be minimized with post-positive treatments to mitigate the harmful effects when you catch it.

FWIW I didn't take it as unsympathetic due to the context of the whole post but I can see why the rhetorical questions in the 2nd paragraph mirrored the style of those who often seek to minimize the impact and desire to 'open up the world, we can't wait for you.' I know that's not what you were saying.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Man, that sucks for you and your daughter. Hope this turns around soon, so she can get back to a more normal social schedule and life. Did you get her an e-Nintendo card for Christmas?

It's just a bummer because she's at the age where she's not yet jaded by school and enjoys it.

But we definitely got hundreds of dollars of games for, uh, her, certainly not me

 

[KINGS17]

It's just a bummer because she's at the age where she's not yet jaded by school and enjoys it.

But we definitely got hundreds of dollars of games for, uh, her, certainly not me

What's your, uh daughter's, favorite game RJ?

 

[Schrute farms]

It's just a bummer because she's at the age where she's not yet jaded by school and enjoys it.

This comment made me laugh (or punch a wall lol) because both my kids recently have passed that "not jaded yet" point with school -- teenagers smh...and we've been dealing with it. Hasn't helped the whole online school, etc. that hit right when they got to that jaded point a year or so ago. Enjoy them while they are young lol

 

[Schrute farms]

FWIW I didn't take it as unsympathetic due to the context of the whole post but I can see why the rhetorical questions in the 2nd paragraph mirrored the style of those who often seek to minimize the impact and desire to 'open up the world, we can't wait for you.' I know that's not what you were saying.

Well that's because i used some bad/lazy analogies to be honest. I meant to circle back shortly thereafter and change it for the better (peanut allergies maybe), but got busy with work and never got a chance.

 

[Bandit]

Well I'm not sure how or why you took my comment as a lack of empathy but ok -- people assume the worst these days i guess. We all have personal or family health (or related) issues that we learn to deal and live with during our short time here on earth. My wife has RA and thus she's one of those that are immediately impacted by CV with a dangerous pre-existing condition. We deal with it accordingly and find a way to live life happily while also being safe.

My comment was the "hope" that this now will move into someone that mainly impacts those at risk. In which case, those folks (& others) can do what's necessary by getting vaxxed and the "hope" that we get some functioning treatment for cases that need it so as to keep it a minor issue like the cold/flu. That's the "hope". Time will tell. But obviously these vaxs are not the game changer that was pushed -- CV is not going away completely to disappear simply due to getting a shot. So we have to learn to live with it like the cold/flu and "hopefully" it can be minimized with post-positive treatments to mitigate the harmful effects when you catch it.

Sorry, I wasn’t directing that at you, but I can see how you thought I was. It was more of a general comment.

 

[RonM11]

I can assure you I understand mathematics and probability analysis as well as, or better than most. I do risk analysis and certify aircraft type designs using probability analysis for a living, and have done it for over 35 years. So, I know BS when I see it, and understand every percentage must be evaluated in its proper context, and has a level of confidence associated with it.

Hope your son is feeling better soon.

Yes, I'm not sure how certifying aircraft design has anything to do with exponential viral curves, and it's clear to me now that between you and me, you are the actual "youngster" here. My degree in Mathematics is very old, and I never used it in my career as a law enforcement officer. However, I can recognize exponential curves in my sleep, and the curves that are presently occurring are truly terrifying. 626,000 "cases" reported alone today. When you have that many positives, it does simply mean there is going to be a lot of suffering, and a lot of death.

I do agree it will be a fraction of deaths caused by the delta variant.

 

[RonM11]

Well I'm not sure how or why you took my comment as a lack of empathy but ok -- people assume the worst these days i guess. We all have personal or family health (or related) issues that we learn to deal and live with during our short time here on earth. My wife has RA and thus she's one of those that are immediately impacted by CV with a dangerous pre-existing condition. We deal with it accordingly and find a way to live life happily while also being safe.

My comment was the "hope" that this now will move into someone that mainly impacts those at risk. In which case, those folks (& others) can do what's necessary by getting vaxxed and the "hope" that we get some functioning treatment for cases that need it so as to keep it a minor issue like the cold/flu. That's the "hope". Time will tell. But obviously these vaxs are not the game changer that was pushed -- CV is not going away completely to disappear simply due to getting a shot. So we have to learn to live with it like the cold/flu and "hopefully" it can be minimized with post-positive treatments to mitigate the harmful effects when you catch it.

It was more of a general comment and not directed at you...not sure where you may have gotten that idea.

 

[KINGS17]

Yes, I'm not sure how certifying aircraft design has anything to do with exponential viral curves, and it's clear to me now that between you and me, you are the actual "youngster" here. My degree in Mathematics is very old, and I never used it in my career as a law enforcement officer. However, I can recognize exponential curves in my sleep, and the curves that are presently occurring are truly terrifying. 626,000 "cases" reported alone today. When you have that many positives, it does simply mean there is going to be a lot of suffering, and a lot of death.

I do agree it will be a fraction of deaths caused by the delta variant.

...but you can't seem to recognize how it is used in risk management. From an overall standpoint, there is nothing "truly terrifying" about the Omicron variant, but I understand your position and how you got there. While there have been some deaths attributed to the Omicron variant the mortality rate is lower than the original and Delta by orders of magnitude.

Once again, cases are not the matter of concern, and neither are positive tests. What matters is the rate of hospitalization and the percentage of cases resulting in death. There will be a rapid spike in Omicron, and it will quickly burn out and the case rate will drop.

Case drop may show South Africa's omicron peak has passed

South Africa has been at the forefront of the omicron wave and the world is watching for any signs of how it may play out there to try to understand what may be in store.

After hitting a high of nearly 27,000 new cases nationwide on Thursday, the numbers dropped to about 15,424 on Tuesday. In Gauteng province — South Africa’s most populous with 16 million people, including the largest city, Johannesburg, and the capital, Pretoria — the decrease started earlier and has continued.

“The drop in new cases nationally combined with the sustained drop in new cases seen here in Gauteng province, which for weeks has been the center of this wave, indicates that we are past the peak," Marta Nunes, senior researcher at the Vaccines and Infectious Diseases Analytics department of the University of Witwatersrand, told The Associated Press.

“It was a short wave ... and the good news is that it was not very severe in terms of hospitalizations and deaths,” she said. It is "not unexpected in epidemiology that a very steep increase, like what we saw in November, is followed by a steep decrease.”

If you or your loved ones are more at-risk, then please take extra precautions to protect yourselves. When you start posting here about how there is going to be extraordinary "death and suffering" from Omicron, it simply isn't true, so don't expect to go unchallenged.

 

[RonM11]

...but you can't seem to recognize how it is used in risk management. From an overall standpoint, there is nothing "truly terrifying" about the Omicron variant, but I understand your position and how you got there. While there have been some deaths attributed to the Omicron variant the mortality rate is lower than the original and Delta by orders of magnitude.

Once again, cases are not the matter of concern, and neither are positive tests. What matters is the rate of hospitalization and the percentage of cases resulting in death. There will be a rapid spike in Omicron, and it will quickly burn out and the case rate will drop.

Case drop may show South Africa's omicron peak has passed

South Africa has been at the forefront of the omicron wave and the world is watching for any signs of how it may play out there to try to understand what may be in store.

After hitting a high of nearly 27,000 new cases nationwide on Thursday, the numbers dropped to about 15,424 on Tuesday. In Gauteng province — South Africa’s most populous with 16 million people, including the largest city, Johannesburg, and the capital, Pretoria — the decrease started earlier and has continued.

“The drop in new cases nationally combined with the sustained drop in new cases seen here in Gauteng province, which for weeks has been the center of this wave, indicates that we are past the peak," Marta Nunes, senior researcher at the Vaccines and Infectious Diseases Analytics department of the University of Witwatersrand, told The Associated Press.

“It was a short wave ... and the good news is that it was not very severe in terms of hospitalizations and deaths,” she said. It is "not unexpected in epidemiology that a very steep increase, like what we saw in November, is followed by a steep decrease.”

If you or your loved ones are more at-risk, then please take extra precautions to protect yourselves. When you start posting here about how there is going to be extraordinary "death and suffering" from Omicron, it simply isn't true, so don't expect to go unchallenged.

"While there have been some deaths attributed to the Omicron variant the mortality rate is lower than the original and Delta by orders of magnitude."

This simply is not true. We are weeks away from the peak, and hospitalizations and deaths always lag...deaths as many as five weeks. That's why I told you we would discuss this again within two months time. Dr. Peter Hotez said Omicron is less severe than Delta but not that much less...in other words, certainly not "orders of magnitude." Where do you get that, anyway?

You keep comparing South African stats and I don't even bother reading them. You can't compare the two very different population demographics as though they are equal. The South African population is as a whole a lot younger and a lot leaner. Given that obesity is a huge risk factor for COVID-19, that throws off all of your comparisons right there. This country is "orders of magnitude" larger than South Africa. South Africa's experience with Omicron cannot be compared with whatever happens to the USA. A good real world example of this is when the Gamma variant burned through the population in Brazil, killing half a million people. It didn't do a thing here.

 

[KINGS17]

"While there have been some deaths attributed to the Omicron variant the mortality rate is lower than the original and Delta by orders of magnitude."
wi
This simply is not true. We are weeks away from the peak, and hospitalizations and deaths always lag...deaths as many as five weeks. That's why I told you we would discuss this again within two months time. Dr. Peter Hotez said Omicron is less severe than Delta but not that much less...in other words, certainly not "orders of magnitude." Where do you get that, anyway?

You keep comparing South African stats and I don't even bother reading them. You can't compare the two very different population demographics as though they are equal. The South African population is as a whole a lot younger and a lot leaner. Given that obesity is a huge risk factor for COVID-19, that throws off all of your comparisons right there. This country is "orders of magnitude" larger than South Africa. South Africa's experience with Omicron cannot be compared with whatever happens to the USA. A good real world example of this is when the Gamma variant burned through the population in Brazil, killing half a million people. It didn't do a thing here.

You should look at the data coming out of South Africa, and other countries who are weeks ahead of the U.S. with their Omicron breakouts. I don't need two months to see what will happen. I can see it in the data today. Stop with the fear mongering.

I know you don't bother reading data and facts from South Africa. There are differences in the demographics. South Africans on average are younger than us. However, their vaccination rate is somewhere around 40%. Ours is much higher, and almost all of our most vulnerable have been fully vaccinated. Additionally, if there is anyone who hasn't been fully vaccinated with a vaccine that has been available for over a year, and is free, that's their personal responsibility.

At any rate, I am finished going back and forth on this with someone who wants to be fearful for the entire population, and has no basis for it.

 

[Papa Mocha 15]

I am sure you have held more hands, etc. It is part of your job, not part of mine, so I thank you for that. Did I say it only affects people with pre-existing conditions? No.

It is BS to suggest it affects people who are vaccinated, or are young without pre-existing conditions in large numbers. This is shown in the data, and is a fact.

I don't put people on ignore. I want to see different points of view. The fact that you are so close to it does not mean you are accurately presenting the data in your posts. That was my sole beef with your post. The media in this country has done everything it can to report bad news on COVID and they often exaggerate the impact without giving complete information.

If you are concerned, that's your right. I am no longer going to run scared every time I see a number like a 400% increase until I see it in the proper context. Hope you have a good New Year as well.

Ok, I absolutely agree the media has covered this horribly. There is a lot of clickbait out there and leading with headlines. People are making money off the headlines. It's dishonest and disgusting. So I'm not focused on the 400%. I'm focused on the velocity of which it is happening and the hospitalizations in multiple places which suggest it's going to continue and spread. There are not a lot of pediatric floors out there. Maybe 2-3 at hospitals that even have pediatrics. And there isn't a lot of pediatric staff to go around so that means if these numbers fly up too hard, too fast, it's going to take care from others. Moreover, we don't know what this variant will do to children. It's new. There are also a large number of kids who are unvaccinated currently, which is what I'm calling for. If you're not concerned, that's ok. You don't have to be. I'm a parent with a young kid. Different phase of life for us. But also, I"m looking at this from a different POV because I'm looking at the hospital system itself. and what we can handle and I've seen how thin they run us and how it hurts other patients.

One of the observations being bedside and why I alluded to it earlier is not for ego purposes, but I can offer an insight others can't and understand the system more and how we prepare, and some intracticies with this virus and what it does. (ie the heart, brain) and not just consider it a respiratory virus

For example, another thing I wish they were showing in the media. Kids may not get awfully sick from Covid thus far with prior variants, but there is a number of them going into Type 1 Diabetes if they have a genetic predisposition. Even though Covid didn't kill them. But again, anecdotal I admit, but this is what I'm hearing from PICU nurses. You won't find that on the news because we don't count that in our numbers. Just like we don't count things like long Covid or new onset heart failure. I see them come back to ICU though often enough. You may not find too much lit on any of this either because it's always usually a virus that starts Type 1 anyway, maybe par for the course but it's interesting to know if we get a wave for kids, it's another thing HCPs are going to think about and I already know our DM teaching can be really shitty sometimes and this is going to be tough for staff to bear teaching families etc and managing a wave in a short time with short staffing etc. .
Covid falls into that bracket of viruses and while we're getting better at managing it, it's still elusive.

I'm going to strongly disagree in terms of people who are vaccinated because I have seen people die who have been fully vaccinated. Most on immunosupressants, but there have been a handful who have died and had nothing else going on. It's a small margin sure, but it does happen. This isn't about living in fear, it's about showing the whole picture and that includes the things we are not seeing on TV. I really try to help this board out by serving as an early warning beacon if I see something coming. Question why we are looking at somethings and not others. What we need to start studying and looking at if I see the news coverage fall off. Maybe we're coming from the same place in some ways, other ways I know we're far apart.

But we can disagree and that's totally ok, no harm, no foul. From a systems standpoint, these numbers are not doom and gloom, I see that. But I don't like them and I don't like where it's going at this time. This is too much at once for the pediatrics who haven't had the brunt of this yet. I would start by looking at ICU admissions and not just hospitalizations but again, we're not even tracking that for kids in the news. Just admissions because that's the headline.

 

[KINGS17]

Ok, I absolutely agree the media has covered this horribly. There is a lot of clickbait out there and leading with headlines. People are making money off the headlines. It's dishonest and disgusting. So I'm not focused on the 400%. I'm focused on the velocity of which it is happening and the hospitalizations in multiple places which suggest it's going to continue and spread. There are not a lot of pediatric floors out there. Maybe 2-3 at hospitals that even have pediatrics. And there isn't a lot of pediatric staff to go around so that means if these numbers fly up too hard, too fast, it's going to take care from others. Moreover, we don't know what this variant will do to children. It's new. There are also a large number of kids who are unvaccinated currently, which is what I'm calling for. If you're not concerned, that's ok. You don't have to be. I'm a parent with a young kid. Different phase of life for us. But also, I"m looking at this from a different POV because I'm looking at the hospital system itself. and what we can handle and I've seen how thin they run us and how it hurts other patients.

One of the observations being bedside and why I alluded to it earlier is not for ego purposes, but I can offer an insight others can't and understand the system more and how we prepare, and some intracticies with this virus and what it does. (ie the heart, brain) and not just consider it a respiratory virus

For example, another thing I wish they were showing in the media. Kids may not get awfully sick from Covid thus far with prior variants, but there is a number of them going into Type 1 Diabetes if they have a genetic predisposition. Even though Covid didn't kill them. But again, anecdotal I admit, but this is what I'm hearing from PICU nurses. You won't find that on the news because we don't count that in our numbers. Just like we don't count things like long Covid or new onset heart failure. I see them come back to ICU though often enough. You may not find too much lit on any of this either because it's always usually a virus that starts Type 1 anyway, maybe par for the course but it's interesting to know if we get a wave for kids, it's another thing HCPs are going to think about and I already know our DM teaching can be really shitty sometimes and this is going to be tough for staff to bear teaching families etc and managing a wave in a short time with short staffing etc. .
Covid falls into that bracket of viruses and while we're getting better at managing it, it's still elusive.

I'm going to strongly disagree in terms of people who are vaccinated because I have seen people die who have been fully vaccinated. Most on immunosupressants, but there have been a handful who have died and had nothing else going on. It's a small margin sure, but it does happen. This isn't about living in fear, it's about showing the whole picture and that includes the things we are not seeing on TV. I really try to help this board out by serving as an early warning beacon if I see something coming. Question why we are looking at somethings and not others. What we need to start studying and looking at if I see the news coverage fall off. Maybe we're coming from the same place in some ways, other ways I know we're far apart.

But we can disagree and that's totally ok, no harm, no foul. From a systems standpoint, these numbers are not doom and gloom, I see that. But I don't like them and I don't like where it's going at this time. This is too much at once for the pediatrics who haven't had the brunt of this yet. I would start by looking at ICU admissions and not just hospitalizations but again, we're not even tracking that for kids in the news. Just admissions because that's the headline.

Fair and concise post. Regarding the media, they are disgusting. I am sure you have had to make presentations to your administrators, or someone you know has had to where a concise summary of a situation is shown. I can imagine exactly what some of my bosses would have asked for in terms of raw numbers and trends on what is happening now, and I would have anticipated that request and had the numbers ready.

My point is, how hard would it be to collect the data you have mentioned? How many people under the age of 18 hospitalized due to COVID (not just testing positive after going to the hospital for something else), how many in ICU, how many have died, how many of all of the above with an underlying health condition. This is simple information to gather and present, yet we can't seem to do it honestly and accurately in this country.

 

[Papa Mocha 15]

Fair and concise post. Regarding the media, they are disgusting. I am sure you have had to make presentations to your administrators, or someone you know has had to where a concise summary of a situation is shown. I can imagine exactly what some of my bosses would have asked for in terms of raw numbers and trends on what is happening now, and I would have anticipated that request and had the numbers ready.

My point is, how hard would it be to collect the data you have mentioned? How many people under the age of 18 hospitalized due to COVID (not just testing positive after going to the hospital for something else), how many in ICU, how many have died, how many of all of the above with an underlying health condition. This is simple information to gather and present, yet we can't seem to do it honestly and accurately in this country.

It would take some work but not at all an obtuse request. We can pull anything out of EPIC (a glorified Excel) and extrapolate it into hard numbers it's not headline news or what people want to click on first so few people are asking those questions but all of at bedside are staring right at it and wondering the same thing. Many of the RNs and MDs on the research side are occupied on what we're learning from the virus itself and how to keep people alive so survivors are are getting kicked down the street because it's not on the forefront of what's in front d/t lack of resources. Vaccine campaign, testing, staffing and keeping stocked supplies is taking most of our man power now. But look at it this way, proning is a nurse driven protocol invented by RNs who just started doing it as a treatment for ARDS. This was not medically driven. Some bedside RN just decided to flip a patient one day and it worked and now it's a mainstay for ARDS pneumonia. We just took it and applied it to Covid when it came along because medical side finally caught up. However, Bedside RNs are NOT the be all end all. We're all dumbasses who are pointing in different directions and disagreeing amongst each other so I don't want to portray that we are. But when we're all on the same page saying something is wrong, it should be looked at and we're not getting that support.

 

[KINGS17]

It would take some work but not at all an obtuse request. We can pull anything out of EPIC (a glorified Excel) and extrapolate it into hard numbers it's not headline news or what people want to click on first so few people are asking those questions but all of at bedside are staring right at it and wondering the same thing. Many of the RNs and MDs on the research side are occupied on what we're learning from the virus itself and how to keep people alive so survivors are are getting kicked down the street because it's not on the forefront of what's in front d/t lack of resources. Vaccine campaign, testing, staffing and keeping stocked supplies is taking most of our man power now. But look at it this way, proning is a nurse driven protocol invented by RNs who just started doing it as a treatment for ARDS. This was not medically driven. Some bedside RN just decided to flip a patient one day and it worked and now it's a mainstay for ARDS pneumonia. We just took it and applied it to Covid when it came along because medical side finally caught up. However, Bedside RNs are NOT the be all end all. We're all dumbasses who are pointing in different directions and disagreeing amongst each other so I don't want to portray that we are. But when we're all on the same page saying something is wrong, it should be looked at and we're not getting that support.

Maybe focusing on vaccines is the wrong thing to do at this point. I say this because everyone who is vulnerable, or just thinks it is a good idea, and wants it already has it.

Maybe the focus should now be on treatments and therapeutics which can be taken at the first sign of symptoms? For example, if therapeutics were easily obtained, and you started having symptoms associated with COVID, but it wasn't COVID, would taking the therapeutic as soon as you had symptoms be dangerous, or "no harm, no foul"?

Why isn't the CDC, and the medical bureaucrats, like Fauci, pounding the drum for this type of response. Instead, all we hear is get vaccinated, get a booster, wear a lame ass mask, don't see your loved ones. While I think it's a great idea to get vaccinated if you are at-risk, the people who are going to get vaccinated, have already done it.

 

[RonM11]

You should look at the data coming out of South Africa, and other countries who are weeks ahead of the U.S. with their Omicron breakouts. I don't need two months to see what will happen. I can see it in the data today. Stop with the fear mongering.

I know you don't bother reading data and facts from South Africa. There are differences in the demographics. South Africans on average are younger than us. However, their vaccination rate is somewhere around 40%. Ours is much higher, and almost all of our most vulnerable have been fully vaccinated. Additionally, if there is anyone who hasn't been fully vaccinated with a vaccine that has been available for over a year, and is free, that's their personal responsibility.

At any rate, I am finished going back and forth on this with someone who wants to be fearful for the entire population, and has no basis for it.

Hospitalizations are up 15% already from just a week ago. There's a data point for you, Sparky.

Next up: KINGS17 compares the United States with case data from Mars.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Maybe focusing on vaccines is the wrong thing to do at this point. I say this because everyone who is vulnerable, or just thinks it is a good idea, and wants it already has it.

Maybe the focus should now be on treatments and therapeutics which can be taken at the first sign of symptoms? For example, if therapeutics were easily obtained, and you started having symptoms associated with COVID, but it wasn't COVID, would taking the therapeutic as soon as you had symptoms be dangerous, or "no harm, no foul"?

Why isn't the CDC, and the medical bureaucrats, like Fauci, pounding the drum for this type of response. Instead, all we hear is get vaccinated, get a booster, wear a lame ass mask, don't see your loved ones. While I think it's a great idea to get vaccinated if you are at-risk, the people who are going to get vaccinated, have already done it.

I think the answer may have been, for a long time anyway, if you give people a choice between the (proactive) vaccine and a (reactive) treatment, it'll mean less people get the vaccine. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, but it's like how I tell all my friends our tee time is at 430 even if it's at 5, because I know how people will act, haha.

But you and I have long agreed that it's as if, once focus shifted to the vaccine, it's like everything else stopped--treatments, rapid testing, etc...I figured by now we'd have ubiquitous access to 15-min tests and at least decent remedies/treatments but noooooope. More failure.

 

[Papa Mocha 15]

Maybe focusing on vaccines is the wrong thing to do at this point. I say this because everyone who is vulnerable, or just thinks it is a good idea, and wants it already has it.

Maybe the focus should now be on treatments and therapeutics which can be taken at the first sign of symptoms? For example, if therapeutics were easily obtained, and you started having symptoms associated with COVID, but it wasn't COVID, would taking the therapeutic as soon as you had symptoms be dangerous, or "no harm, no foul"?

Why isn't the CDC, and the medical bureaucrats, like Fauci, pounding the drum for this type of response. Instead, all we hear is get vaccinated, get a booster, wear a lame ass mask, don't see your loved ones. While I think it's a great idea to get vaccinated if you are at-risk, the people who are going to get vaccinated, have already done it.

I agree but I think it's just gonna get mandated anyway, until then full court press is what they're going for so the hospitals don't get over run and we can keep all the other stuff like cancer treatment going and other surgeries and "elective procedures". However, I haven't seen too many things work on the therapeutic side. It's more symptom and medical management until the oxygen sats drop or their respiratory muscles run out of gas leading to a tube (intubation). But there hasn't been a magical bullet in term of meds once infected. Once someone hits the ICU, it gets harder to turn around as either they didn't seek treatment fast enough and the virus has invaded the lungs and it's wreaking havoc or it's creating pulmonary embolisms and/or heart failure or a stroke. Delta expedited all of that. Alpha was one thing, Delta turned this thing on its head and we never could catch up, at least from an ICU perspective.

The new pills are finally out and the data says they are a game changer. I haven't read it yet. If it is, maybe the combo is the fix. Maybe that's the therapeutic others have been looking for. Time will tell.

 

[KINGS17]

I agree but I think it's just gonna get mandated anyway, until then full court press is what they're going for so the hospitals don't get over run and we can keep all the other stuff like cancer treatment going and other surgeries and "elective procedures". However, I haven't seen too many things work on the therapeutic side. It's more symptom and medical management until the oxygen sats drop or their respiratory muscles run out of gas leading to a tube (intubation). But there hasn't been a magical bullet in term of meds once infected. Once someone hits the ICU, it gets harder to turn around as either they didn't seek treatment fast enough and the virus has invaded the lungs and it's wreaking havoc or it's creating pulmonary embolisms and/or heart failure or a stroke. Delta expedited all of that. Alpha was one thing, Delta turned this thing on its head and we never could catch up, at least from an ICU perspective.

The new pills are finally out and the data says they are a game changer. I haven't read it yet. If it is, maybe the combo is the fix. Maybe that's the therapeutic others have been looking for. Time will tell.

I don't think we will ever see a vaccine mandate, and I don't think one would be appropriate.

 

[Papa Mocha 15]

I don't think we will ever see a vaccine mandate, and I don't think one would be appropriate.

I think we will see it at the school level and it will get implemented that way. The other mandates will get argued in court and will fall this way or that (states rights vs federal mandate) but I don't see how the schools get out of it. This generation is a lost cause so it's going onto the next one. There are already vaccine mandates in place for schools for every other disease so I don't see how the Supreme Court will call it a strike. The data is pretty overwhelming for kids from 5 to 11 so there really isn't a reason to strike it down as mandates already exist for public health and if those get struck down then all vaccine mandates for school become fair game. It would slowly be chipped awayFor adults, it's just a waiting game now until the rest of the unvaccinated catch the virus. They'll live or die as biology, lifestyle, environmental factors and human spirit permit. We may get a few lessons learned here as individuals and it may affect our approach to life. Hopefully we'll treat humanity a little better next round. Right now, the question in my mind is that it has to be legal and in line with precedent, not necessarily appropriate or inappropriate.

Off topic, for those out there in prior posts, empathy isn't dead IMHO. It's displaced as people are suffering from compassion fatigue. People are still giving to the poor and helping others in need. It's a polarized time as societies go. This is a lower end to that ebb and flow. When this passes and people have recharged a bit, it will resurface more frequently and in more tangible ways. It's difficult right now d/t the circumstances. Just help out your families and keep your homes in order. Perhaps that's me talking to myself. I had a thought on it when I read it and needed to say that.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I see great amounts of empathy in my daily life regardless of race, creed, political affiliation.

I don't see any on the Internet.

That's all, lol.

 

[KINGS17]

I see great amounts of empathy in my daily life regardless of race, creed, political affiliation.

I don't see any on the Internet.

That's all, lol.

This post may be a broader topic than the subject you addressed in your post.

I don't see vaccine mandates as a political issue, I see them as a legal issue. I can understand why parents are hesitant to vaccinate their healthy children when children are largely unaffected by COVID. I can see how parents would weigh the risk and decide against the vaccination for their kids, and how young adults would make the same decision for themselves. This isn't smallpox or polio, and one type of treatment does not fit all.

Now for me, I have weighed the risk of getting the vaccine vs what might happen if I contracted COVID, and I got fully vaccinated. I accepted the personal responsibility to protect myself, and because I was vaccinated, I don't mind being around people who are not vaccinated. Admittedly, I would feel differently about being around unvaccinated people, if I was protecting a daughter with issues regarding their immune system, as you are RJ.

I see plenty of empathy on this site among our members. I don't want anyone or their loved ones to get sick or suffer. That doesn't mean I have to agree with them on any number of points.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

This post may be a broader topic than the subject you addressed in your post.

I don't see vaccine mandates as a political issue, I see them as a legal issue. I can understand why parents are hesitant to vaccinate their healthy children when children are largely unaffected by COVID. I can see how parents would weigh the risk and decide against the vaccination for their kids, and how young adults would make the same decision for themselves. This isn't smallpox or polio, and one type of treatment does not fit all.

Now for me, I have weighed the risk of getting the vaccine vs what might happen if I contracted COVID, and I got fully vaccinated. I accepted the personal responsibility to protect myself, and because I was vaccinated, I don't mind being around people who are not vaccinated. Admittedly, I would feel differently about being around unvaccinated people, if I was protecting a daughter with issues regarding their immune system, as you are RJ.

I see plenty of empathy on this site among our members. I don't want anyone or their loved ones to get sick or suffer. That doesn't mean I have to agree with them on any number of points.

I intended it that way to generalize for that reason--because I suspect that each of us amongst our neighbors/friends/family generally have a great amount of respect for one another and regardless of reasoning for vaccinating/not vaccinating we are there to help one another with none or little judgment. My neighbors aren't vaccinated at all and they're vocal about it, it's a political issue for them, but I'm still dropping them off care packages while they fight off Covid.

Our forum in particular has been mostly good. The internet and media as a whole would have you believe we all hate each other. I guess my point in the end is that while many of us don't agree, we're likely exhibiting a lot more empathy in our day to day lives than we are here in text. Everyone I know that isn't on Twitter at all is a LOT happier in general