General COVID-19 Talk #4 MOD Warning

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Had some fun at work last night. A few nurses and a Respiratory Therapist were having a lively discussion over the vaccine mandate to work in health care. I waited a bit for the arguments to cycle through the usual talking points and asked the RT, who is against vaccine mandates citing it as a person right , how he weighs it. So I asked him, If you put the two against each other, how do you weigh the immune compromised and the sick who are vulnerable under your care knowing you could potentially kill them vs your right to not get a medication forced on you to work at job. He looked right at me and said, "at the end of the day, it's not my problem. I don't have an answer for that. It's just not my problem".

One of the nurses shot right back at him and said, "but you like the rest of us are not entitled to a job". "Do you think you are entitled to a job?"

He didn't answer that part. He just repeated that it wasn't his problem and didn't answer if he was entitled to a job. He had to rush off to help another Pt. I will say, he is a very good RT. He's one of the better one skill wise, empathy not so much, but he's very sound. His bedside manner sucks sometimes but we don't pay people to be nice, they are paid to do a job.

Interesting take. The thing is, I don't think he's alone in that. I think that's what this comes down to. Not my problem vs protecting others. This conversation was situational, but I appreciated his honesty about it. I think more people feel that way than what they are willing to admit.
 
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302 cases per day
Hosp up 6 over the weekend
ICU up 4 over the weekend
 
I saw that. The quasi study from Israel was never peer reviewed before it became public so not at all a huge surprise. Aspects of the media grabbed onto it and cherry picked it into their own narrative. Plus the natural immunity could never be qualified as each person's biochemistry is different so natural immunity will wain. Fauci was right, it's a tough question to answer because we didn't have the data at the time and that's the struggle with science is that it evolves with more information, but nothing is ever definite. Everything is a theory that is supported by data until it becomes generally accepted.

If you're looking for something interesting to watch, there is a documentary on National Geographic called Fauci. He was one of the first individuals in the US to catch the AIDS epidemic and switched things up at the NIH and formed a team to chase it. His colleagues turned on him to some degree as he was scoffed for going after it as no one believed the data he was reading was a real trend as a new "bug". Then the work he did with Ebola was nothing short of amazing. The cocktail we still use today was for HIV was put together with his guidance. Pretty amazing stuff. But if we focus on YouTube clips of him not fully answering a question to someone's liking or political editorials to advance a party ideology that is nothing short of sensationalized journalism, there is a larger work there that doesn't touch the bigger picture of what is happening.

But to be honest, I'm kind of pissed right now because I took care of someone who was absolutely confused why we weren't treating their COVID with Vitamin D and Zinc. They thought that was the actual treatment needed to get over it, never mind that's what they were taking at home, which didn't work-and now they're hospitalized. Guiding someone through trust issues created from what they read/hear on the news and believing that nurses and doctors don't care of them properly makes providing care more difficult. A medical care plan is designed from a "standard of care" with practices that are proven and when something is experimental, the patient has to sign off on it in the form of a consent. What I'm seeing how far apart their reality is from the actual disease process. It's scary that any political hack or "journalist", who does nothing more than editorialize, would ever recommend to someone to "do your own research" and then force feed a bunch of misinformation on treatment so someone could make an :informed choice" when they are neither a medical professional or have any data to back up what they are saying and then leave someone so far out of touch with the disease they just acquired, they think health care workers are denying them proper care. And they fall back on "I was just asking questions. How come no one can ask questions?" I mean how do these people sleep at night. It confuses the patient and the family on creating a proper course of care and puts their life at risk because then they start refusing care because that's not what idiot on the news told them. It's an alternate universe so far out of touch, it's killing its own viewers. I mean, FFS...how do people sleep at night.

Might want to actually interview doctors in the ICU and Infectious Disease MDs or those involved in peer reviewed studies with feet on the ground as opposed to goofs like Scott Atlas, who was not even a practicing physician and spent more time writing books with political bias and agenda and somehow make it into the WH of the prior administration. Scientists are supposed to be apolitical and tell the facts as they are so recommendations can be made for public health. If they don't know, they don't know and say as much until data that is peer reviewed comes out to validate or change an opinion. Otherwise, it's like reliving Vietnam where the Generals are saying " Yup, it's going great over here" and the soldiers are going "What the hell are they talking about" which is where some of us are with this. Seriously...how the F did we get here. How is it that people are afraid of a GD vaccine and what doctors and nurses are telling them works and has proven it works and discloses the studies to them, and they run to the same people when shit falls apart and then demand we do what the news told them because some idiot on the news is "asking questions" or wondering why they can't "question the system". The Fing secret in that entire Fing equation is the system is always being questioned, it is then validated and revalidated with more and more peer reviewed studies. That's how the standard of Fing care is built. If you don't follow it or prescribe meds outside of it, guess what, your medical license gets sanctioned, lose your license or get sued or both.

Just because someone in a bow tie behind a prompter, who can speak eloquently, is "just asking questions", it doesn't mean the system is wrong although it is inherently implied. Instead of directing their viewers to ask intelligent questions on what they can do to prevent a disease process, they point them into an early grave. And the sad thing is, now that more people have died from COVID than our own Civil War, these people are so convinced that still don't see it coming and they are leaving kids and teenagers behind. These are good people with good families who are going through tragedies that their kids will not fully recover from and they are blaming doctors and nurses for it because the news told them its as their fault. This is so much worse than taking a kid out of school for a year because now people are growing up blaming the system and not trusting it, furthering the divide. This country was built on science and engineering. It's those advancements that have moved us so far ahead in this world and it seems to me with this environment, we're taking more than a few steps back.
 
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Had some fun at work last night. A few nurses and a Respiratory Therapist were having a lively discussion over the vaccine mandate to work in health care. I waited a bit for the arguments to cycle through the usual talking points and asked the RT, who is against vaccine mandates citing it as a person right , how he weighs it. So I asked him, If you put the two against each other, how do you weigh the immune compromised and the sick who are vulnerable under your care knowing you could potentially kill them vs your right to not get a medication forced on you to work at job. He looked right at me and said, "at the end of the day, it's not my problem. I don't have an answer for that. It's just not my problem".

One of the nurses shot right back at him and said, "but you like the rest of us are not entitled to a job". "Do you think you are entitled to a job?"

He didn't answer that part. He just repeated that it wasn't his problem and didn't answer if he was entitled to a job. He had to rush off to help another Pt. I will say, he is a very good RT. He's one of the better one skill wise, empathy not so much, but he's very sound. His bedside manner sucks sometimes but we don't pay people to be nice, they are paid to do a job.

Interesting take. The thing is, I don't think he's alone in that. I think that's what this comes down to. Not my problem vs protecting others. This conversation was situational, but I appreciated his honesty about it. I think more people feel that way than what they are willing to admit.
Then he should be fired. It's not his problem; therefore, it's not his job anymore.

Maybe he can be a fry cook somewhere. Better yet, he should work as a wood chipper.
 
Slighty OT. The HPV vaccine is reducing a big success reducing cervical cancer cases by a smidge under 90%. Damn those big Pharma companies failing the 10%, says the anti vax movement.

I guess the anti vax argument going forward will be that cervical cancer is made up, or something equally stupid. People really need to understand that this stuff gets tested to death, the scientific process never gets circumvented. Every drug is subjected to the same rigorous CT processes.

My partners 11 yr old (and most of her classmates) had the vaccine recently, with no issues or concerns. I understand the emotional hesitation from parents, but they are always more cautious with kids so if has approval I personally have no concerns.
 
Just got my five year old's appointment scheduled for Nov. 9. Gonna give him the day off from school. New rule. Get a shot, you can miss a day of school and screw off and eat ice cream. Cause why the F not? This rule disappears after 4th grade so enjoy the ride. Now go wash my car.
 
Slighty OT. The HPV vaccine is reducing a big success reducing cervical cancer cases by a smidge under 90%. Damn those big Pharma companies failing the 10%, says the anti vax movement.

I guess the anti vax argument going forward will be that cervical cancer is made up, or something equally stupid. People really need to understand that this stuff gets tested to death, the scientific process never gets circumvented. Every drug is subjected to the same rigorous CT processes.

My partners 11 yr old (and most of her classmates) had the vaccine recently, with no issues or concerns. I understand the emotional hesitation from parents, but they are always more cautious with kids so if has approval I personally have no concerns.
Of course, the flip side to this is those damn dirty big pharma companies should be giving this vaccine away for free, or at a greatly reduced price.
 
Of course, the flip side to this is those damn dirty big pharma companies should be giving this vaccine away for free, or at a greatly reduced price.
In the case of Covid I believe that they have kept the price lower than they normally would, certainly the AZ one. I’m not up on the pricing model on the Covid jabs though, apart from the AZ (Oxford) vaccine which is around £5 a shot and doesn’t need to be frozen so is easy to distribute.
 
In the case of Covid I believe that they have kept the price lower than they normally would, certainly the AZ one. I’m not up on the pricing model on the Covid jabs though, apart from the AZ (Oxford) vaccine which is around £5 a shot and doesn’t need to be frozen so is easy to distribute.

Margins on vaccines have always been shitty, the big money is in therapeutics. The only reason Moderna took it on is because their technologies were a perfect match and they needed a springboard into more lucrative drugs (read: targeted treatments for incurable diseases).
 
NYT Graph_11-08-21.png


You see that plateauing the last week or so?

Yeah, we are going to go into another surge for the winter. Why? Because only 58% of us have been vaccinated. That's not even close to what we need for herd immunity. Not a bit f***ing close. For this particular virus, it's becoming increasingly clear that vaccinations (or immunizations, according to the great liar Aaron Rodgers) need to be in the high 80s, if not even higher.
 
Then you have this map:

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You see how bad it is getting in the northern states?

Why isn't this being discussed in the news these days? Well, for one thing, we are all tired of hearing about this f***ing virus. We are all tired of dealing with it. So, the news organizations have picked up on this, and instead of this ongoing disaster of all of human history, we are talking about one dead couple in their early 20s, a ghoulish obsession with dead concertgoers, and the bumbling Dem WH and the bumbling Dem Congress.

Minnesota is going down the COVID toilet, and no one is talking about it. Colorado just got through a triage month of October and hardly anyone is talking about it. It's just incredible, and just mind-numbing...we are definitely in this for the long haul.
 
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You see that plateauing the last week or so?

Yeah, we are going to go into another surge for the winter. Why? Because only 58% of us have been vaccinated. That's not even close to what we need for herd immunity. Not a bit f***ing close. For this particular virus, it's becoming increasingly clear that vaccinations (or immunizations, according to the great liar Aaron Rodgers) need to be in the high 80s, if not even higher.
I was reading something saying that they think the surge is already starting.
The hospital numbers are real time and the case numbers are a week old. We might see a big jump in the case numbers next week
 
I was reading something saying that they think the surge is already starting.
The hospital numbers are real time and the case numbers are a week old. We might see a big jump in the case numbers next week

The so-called "experts" are "perplexed" as to the behavior of this virus, are finding it confusing, and can't figure out what's next for this pathogen.

The problem with these "experts" are they are looking at the whole phenomena from a scientific point of view. They are viewing this coronavirus and its behavior as they would an influenza virus, and through a historic lens. This is wrongheaded and unimaginative.

For me, it's so obvious, and has been since day 1: This is math. Exponential growth. And after exhausting all potential bodies for infection, extremely steep declines of virus in the population. It's all about bell curves, a major tenet in college statistical courses. The graph above betrays beautiful bell curves in which one can basically predict when the next surge will be.

The plateauing may very well be the start to the surge. I can virtually guarantee that we are gonna surge that might take us to the stratosphere and in Winter Season, with thanksgiving travel giving that a boost as well. I'll check this thread back in four weeks to see how the previous four weeks went. Hopefully well.
 
The so-called "experts" are "perplexed" as to the behavior of this virus, are finding it confusing, and can't figure out what's next for this pathogen.

The problem with these "experts" are they are looking at the whole phenomena from a scientific point of view. They are viewing this coronavirus and its behavior as they would an influenza virus, and through a historic lens. This is wrongheaded and unimaginative.

For me, it's so obvious, and has been since day 1: This is math. Exponential growth. And after exhausting all potential bodies for infection, extremely steep declines of virus in the population. It's all about bell curves, a major tenet in college statistical courses. The graph above betrays beautiful bell curves in which one can basically predict when the next surge will be.

The plateauing may very well be the start to the surge. I can virtually guarantee that we are gonna surge that might take us to the stratosphere and in Winter Season, with thanksgiving travel giving that a boost as well. I'll check this thread back in four weeks to see how the previous four weeks went. Hopefully well.

While it's impossible to figure out where any virus heads because they mutate, I wouldn't say scientists are perplexed at all. COVID is much more predictable than other types of viruses. They most certainly aren't viewing COVID as influenza, because if they were research would have focused on treatment other than vaccines. RNA polymerases generally exhibit low fidelity compared to DNA polymerases, and both COVID and influenza are RNA viruses so you would expect high mutation rates. COVID is different because it has a higher fidelity due to the presence of a proofreading mechanisms in it's RNAp. The reason for this is coronaviruses have really big genomes compared to other viruses, so this type of mechanism is a necessity. Think of it like this - you probably don't need to proofread a short email for errors because there isn't much to mess up. A full-page email would be more likely to have errors, so you probably would want to look it over.

Because coronaviruses have higher fidelity than influenza viruses, mutation rates are comparably lower. Very low fidelities in influenza viruses make their actions very hard to predict, which is why vaccines are worthless a year after they are given. This is also the very reason it's infinitely more important for people to get a COVID jab compared to a flu shot. Because they have volatile mutations flu vaccines simply aren't that effective, while the predictability of COVID means that vaccines will have relatively longer-lasting protection. If they were treating COVID like influenza, the focus would be on treatments as it's near impossible to stop the spread of influenza. You make a good observation about statistical courses because those neat predictable curves you see is a result of COVID being so predictable. It's a completely different thing than a bell curve of course because growth curves and distribution curves are very different things, but pretty much every expert recognizes this, even if they differ on pathways for treatment. It most certainly isn't math though, as growth in math is due to a predictable function - the equation never changes. While COVID might seem that way because it is more predictable, it isn't completely predictable, which is why it's still presenting a challenge.

This is why the vast majority of scientists and experts have been preaching vaccinations since they came out, and they knew exactly what would happen if rates weren't high. They predicted correctly that a large peak would happen in winter when people moved more indoors and had more gatherings. They also predicted a 3rd wave based on poor vaccination rates, with the majority of cases among the unvaccinated.

The biggest problem today is that people want to do their own research, but lack the tools to do so. They get their information from blogs, news stations, and what outlets say the CDC is saying because they need someone to translate what a journal article is saying. Every time I read someone say "well I did my research on COVID" I chuckle inside because 95% of them aren't doing research at all, but reading other people's interpretations. It is impossible for data to be biased, it's just numbers. What can be biased is methodology and interpretation, and 95% of Americans couldn't even read and understand a typical journal article, let alone figure out which parts of it have weak design. It's like the Aaron Rodgers thing. I don't know him personally but I would guess that all that time spent on the football field as a youth impacted his study time and he's really not reading research. He's listening to what talking heads are stating the research says and thinking that is due diligence. Through confirmation bias the internet has the powerful ability to make one feel smart, which is why it is so very dangerous in a lot of ways.

We will see another surge, it's only a question of how bad. It won't be as bad as last winter, simply because we have a significantly vaccinated population, but indications are that it is not going to go well at all, particularly among the unvaccinated.
 
COVID-19 hospitalizations rising in parts of California, a potentially ominous sign

COVID-19 hospitalizations have risen significantly in the Inland Empire and Central Valley, bringing new concerns about whether the shift represents a precursor to a wider spike in COVID-19 in California as the winter holidays approach.

oh Fresno
Only weeks ago, officials in the San Joaquin Valley were optimistic that trends were headed in the right direction. But now, officials say hospitals in Fresno County, the most populous county in the region, “really have never left the crisis,” said Dan Lynch, director of the Central California Emergency Medical Services Agency.
“The bigger hospitals are probably between 110% to 130% of normal capacity. And they are all holding ICU patients, again, back in their emergency departments,” Lynch said. “We’re seeing the hospital emergency departments overwhelmed."
The statewide rate is 10, and the two most populous regions have rates below that: Southern California's rate is 8, while the Bay Area's is 4. Some experts believe it's a sign of concern when COVID-19 hospitalization rates are 5 or greater for every 100,000 residents.
Within Southern California's most populated areas, the Inland Empire has the worst COVID-19 hospitalization rates, with San Bernardino and Riverside counties reporting respective rates of 14 and 11. San Diego County is reporting 8; Orange County, 7; L.A. County, 6 and Ventura County, 4
 

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