General COVID-19 Talk #4 MOD Warning

[Papa Mocha 15]

My point is, the vaccinated can catch it, spread it and as the article you shared , they can also pass away from Covid. That is not my opinion, that is from the CDC. Im no doctor, so i or anyone else who is not a doctor should be telling folks who should get the jab. No one should be forced, let alone be giving medical advice because of an isolated case. That is not science. Should there be a resolution, of course, but to say the vaccine is the end all, is not being honest of what is happening.

Never said it was the end all. Also, I conceded the point that everyone should get tested if symptoms are present but not everyone does. However, specific to health care workers, the vaccine requirement makes sense because there have been too many cases of unvaccinated health care workers giving it to the patients. HCW take care of higher risk patients who may die if they get it. All reported cases are going to be one offs. For example, in nursing homes, if you look at the cases where it spread throughout the entire nursing home, a patient gave it to a health care worker who then gave it to everyone else. That's how it spreads around. So to have an unvaccinated HCW spread it around doesn't make too much sense. When it does happen, It becomes what is called a "reportable incident". If a hospital has one, they have to go through audits, face fines and implement action plans. Also, having a nurse or healthcare worker take care of someone who is immune compromised and go to work while symptomatic is entirely negligent. Keep in mind too that people are asymptomatic for a period of time while spreading the virus. The hospitals see it not worth the money or liability to keep these employees around because then the hospital is on the hook for their care since they caused it. Hence, all the mandates are going into place. Hero yesterday, unemployed tomorrow. It all comes down to money.

Appreciate the comment about not wanting to mandate anything unless it is from a doctor, so we'll just agree to disagree there. That's why public health agencies exist and where the recommendations come from. Also, hospitals have boards, where decisions are made by a group of leaders who follow the scientific process ideally. Anyone one person can get a license, doesn't make them good. There are plenty of one off MDs around the country, like Dr. Mercola, who are spreading misinformation and pushing the latest snake oil for a profit. Some of them are finally facing disciplinary action for it. The initials don't always mean competence.

But contrary to that, why do think HCW should not be vaccinated? If you were managing a hospital and the cost of employing the same non vaccinated HCWs was being on the hook for the employees getting sick and any disability, paid time off, increased insurance rates therein AND also covering costs for the patient getting COVID and open to audits from the regulatory boards plus the negative publicity of getting people sick and potentially killing them (Yelp, the news etc) what reason do you have to not require it if you were the ultimate decision maker? Keep in mind, hospital employees, front line workers are typically required to have all vaccines in place prior to working. Why should COVID not be included since it is considered a safe vaccine?

 

[Papa Mocha 15]

Rapid testing should be the norm, no matter what the situation, vaccinated or not. I'm still more than a little irked that it's not widely available/practical.

Pisses me off that I'm waiting 12 hours for a rapid test to come back now because of a shortage. The amount of PPE going to waste and time btw patients while waiting for results to come back is beyond loathsome. But no one wants to employ people to run it overnight but can't figure out that the money wasted on PPE is more expensive than paying someone an hourly rate... rant rant rant. Everyone loves to hate on the big cheese admin. I'm sure you know the feeling.

 

[KingsofLA]

Never said it was the end all. Also, I conceded the point that everyone should get tested if symptoms are present but not everyone does. However, specific to health care workers, the vaccine requirement makes sense because there have been too many cases of unvaccinated health care workers giving it to the patients. HCW take care of higher risk patients who may die if they get it. All reported cases are going to be one offs. For example, in nursing homes, if you look at the cases where it spread throughout the entire nursing home, a patient gave it to a health care worker who then gave it to everyone else. That's how it spreads around. So to have an unvaccinated HCW spread it around doesn't make too much sense. When it does happen, It becomes what is called a "reportable incident". If a hospital has one, they have to go through audits, face fines and implement action plans. Also, having a nurse or healthcare worker take care of someone who is immune compromised and go to work while symptomatic is entirely negligent. Keep in mind too that people are asymptomatic for a period of time while spreading the virus. The hospitals see it not worth the money or liability to keep these employees around because then the hospital is on the hook for their care since they caused it. Hence, all the mandates are going into place. Hero yesterday, unemployed tomorrow. It all comes down to money.

Appreciate the comment about not wanting to mandate anything unless it is from a doctor, so we'll just agree to disagree there. That's why public health agencies exist and where the recommendations come from. Also, hospitals have boards, where decisions are made by a group of leaders who follow the scientific process ideally. Anyone one person can get a license, doesn't make them good. There are plenty of one off MDs around the country, like Dr. Mercola, who are spreading misinformation and pushing the latest snake oil for a profit. Some of them are finally facing disciplinary action for it. The initials don't always mean competence.

But contrary to that, why do think HCW should not be vaccinated? If you were managing a hospital and the cost of employing the same non vaccinated HCWs was being on the hook for the employees getting sick and any disability, paid time off, increased insurance rates therein AND also covering costs for the patient getting COVID and open to audits from the regulatory boards plus the negative publicity of getting people sick and potentially killing them (Yelp, the news etc) what reason do you have to not require it if you were the ultimate decision maker? Keep in mind, hospital employees, front line workers are typically required to have all vaccines in place prior to working. Why should COVID not be included since it is considered a safe vaccine?

Why do i think HCW should not get vaccinated is because you can go to work and not be sick, so you want pass anything to anyone. Hospitals workers can easily get tested at work. I don't see it very complicated. Now hospice worker don't easily have that access to testing, but the govt can prioritize them, to have access to home testing.

And you can fire all unvaccinated, but that will lead to more shortages. 4.3 million quit their jobs in August
A record 4.3 million workers quit their jobs in August, led by food and retail industries (cnbc.com)
and of that number, 534,000 were in the health care and social assistance. Its obvious those mandates are affecting the US. Options are available without segregating a population that has chosen not to get vaccinated

 

[Papa Mocha 15]

Why do i think HCW should not get vaccinated is because you can go to work and not be sick, so you want pass anything to anyone. Hospitals workers can easily get tested at work. I don't see it very complicated. Now hospice worker don't easily have that access to testing, but the govt can prioritize them, to have access to home testing.

And you can fire all unvaccinated, but that will lead to more shortages. 4.3 million quit their jobs in August
A record 4.3 million workers quit their jobs in August, led by food and retail industries (cnbc.com)
and of that number, 534,000 were in the health care and social assistance. Its obvious those mandates are affecting the US. Options are available without segregating a population that has chosen not to get vaccinated

Nah, that's what scabs are for. Just hire travelers in or call in the National Guard for replacements for severe shortages like they were doing in San Bernardino. I wouldn't hold back a mandate d/t risk of losing staff. It would be easier to higher new grads and train them up. You can pay them less too and keep the costs down from running the hospital into the ground.

But just to clarify, you'd be ok as a hospital CEO to have unvaccinated staff considering the risks and potential financial losses? Seems like a nonprofitable way to run a hospital. Bills for patients stack up high and if your staff gave it to a patient, that's pretty steep. Can easily hit a few hundred grand if they get to the ICU.

 

[Fishhead]

Nah, that's what scabs are for. Just hire travelers in or call in the National Guard for replacements for severe shortages like they were doing in San Bernardino. I wouldn't hold back a mandate d/t risk of losing staff. It would be easier to higher new grads and train them up. You can pay them less too and keep the costs down from running the hospital into the ground.

But just to clarify, you'd be ok as a hospital CEO to have unvaccinated staff considering the risks and potential financial losses? Seems like a nonprofitable way to run a hospital. Bills for patients stack up high and if your staff gave it to a patient, that's pretty steep. Can easily hit a few hundred grand if they get to the ICU.

And don't forget the lawsuits, could you imagine the dollar value if an admit caught COVID from their caregiver and either died or ended up with lingering conditions?

But like you said, it's pretty easy to replace the folks who don't want the jab. Very few doctors aren't vaccinated, most of the holdouts are in lower-level positions like orderlies, assistants, and aides. It's well documented that vaccination rates and education level of health care workers show an inverse relationship, so it's not going to be difficult to fill those jobs.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

i was gonna say it doesn't matter how i feel about 'freedom,' if i'm running a hospital in particular, my lawyers are absolutely riding my ass 24-7 about liability of unvaccinated workers. Or really anyone on the front lines, including police/fire.

The amount of malpractice suits is already absolutely ludicrous, imagine throwing that kind of risk out there, it's a bomb.

 

[Papa Mocha 15]

And don't forget the lawsuits, could you imagine the dollar value if an admit caught COVID from their caregiver and either died or ended up with lingering conditions?

But like you said, it's pretty easy to replace the folks who don't want the jab. Very few doctors aren't vaccinated, most of the holdouts are in lower-level positions like orderlies, assistants, and aides. It's well documented that vaccination rates and education level of health care workers show an inverse relationship, so it's not going to be difficult to fill those jobs.

Would hate to see that number in terms of lawsuits. To add on, I honestly think the shortage is manufactured due to low salaries based on state. When I got my gig, I asked the recruiter who offered me the position how many applicants there were for it. He told me around 150, for one position. Crazy number right? NorCal has unions so it makes sense to have more competition. However, in SoCal, where I worked previously, especially Orange County and San Diego, nurses don't have a strong union presence except for a small number of hospitals so it's not as competitive financially and some employers are looking for anyone to apply. I was offered much less when I was considering SD compared to OC. I was offered about $5 less per hour. Since everyone wants to live near the Ocean, they will take the paycut. No one is making them pay more.

But looking more broadly, salaries across the Midwest, Idaho, Michigan, have some of the lowest salaries in the nation so it doesn't surprise me where the shortages are. If people got paid what they are worth, then things might be different. The hospitals are making the same amount of money and surviving. Leads me to think, the shortage is based more on salaries and lack thereof that California has in place. Looking where the National Guard is being deployed tells me they don't have staff because they weren't paying them to begin with so now they need to be bailed out. Or paying Travelers obscene amounts of money so now people are scattering. It sucks really because the people who have been through thick and thin are getting the short end of the stick.

But looking at the worker shortage across the US right now. People are transitioning out because they believe there are better opps, money or conditions elsewhere. Companies that have treated employees poorly or underpaid them previously are now struggling to keep staff or working shortened hours. I don't think any industry is really immune anymore.

 

[Papa Mocha 15]

i was gonna say it doesn't matter how i feel about 'freedom,' if i'm running a hospital in particular, my lawyers are absolutely riding my ass 24-7 about liability of unvaccinated workers. Or really anyone on the front lines, including police/fire.

The amount of malpractice suits is already absolutely ludicrous, imagine throwing that kind of risk out there, it's a bomb.

It blows me away that some police and fire are also avoiding the jab or threatening to leave. Who gets sued? the city. Who pays? The taxpayers. It just rolls off back to the city to pay any damages so the cities are making that decision for vaccine mandates. I have tremendous respect for what front line workers do by going out into the public. I could never do it and am not built for it. But it doesn't surprise me that the mandates are rolling in. Comes back to the dollar and liability.

 

[KingsofLA]

Nah, that's what scabs are for. Just hire travelers in or call in the National Guard for replacements for severe shortages like they were doing in San Bernardino. I wouldn't hold back a mandate d/t risk of losing staff. It would be easier to higher new grads and train them up. You can pay them less too and keep the costs down from running the hospital into the ground.

But just to clarify, you'd be ok as a hospital CEO to have unvaccinated staff considering the risks and potential financial losses? Seems like a nonprofitable way to run a hospital. Bills for patients stack up high and if your staff gave it to a patient, that's pretty steep. Can easily hit a few hundred grand if they get to the ICU.

Here is recent list of mostly local news from Oregon to New York and even other countries like Canada talking about health care worker shortage. ToA say it does not exist, is denying facts. At UC
(9) shortage in healthcare workers - YouTube
Playing Russian roulette on our health care is very dangerous. Not many people want to work, so chances of those position being filled are very slim

 

[SmytheKing]

But looking at the worker shortage across the US right now. People are transitioning out because they believe there are better opps, money or conditions elsewhere. Companies that have treated employees poorly or underpaid them previously are now struggling to keep staff or working shortened hours. I don't think any industry is really immune anymore.

Exactly. If you're going to cite the quit rate and ignore that unemployment went down too, you're just using one number to push an agenda. Also, before people say "people are leaving the work force", the labor participation rate (the number that measures that too) has been the same for over a year.

 

[Papa Mocha 15]

Here is recent list of mostly local news from Oregon to New York and even other countries like Canada talking about health care worker shortage. ToA say it does not exist, is denying facts. At UC
(9) shortage in healthcare workers - YouTube
Playing Russian roulette on our health care is very dangerous. Not many people want to work, so chances of those position being filled are very slim

I think you might be misunderstanding. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, it does. Hospitals underhired and underpaid staff. There have been periods where there have been more nurses than jobs and hospitals still refused to hire staff because they wanted to keep profits up. This goes way back and has been an ongoing battle for years. So I"m saying this was preventable and it's still manageable but it was a crisis of their own doing. Even if I'm wrong on this point, it doesn't matter, because risking getting patients sick will put a hospital on the hook for hundreds of thousands of dollars per patient and prevent them from getting paid by Medicare and Medicaid on other patients, which is where a lot of their money comes from. Once reimbursement gets stopped, all patients under insurance plans get looked at, not just one. Negligence costs money. The vaccine is tied to the FDA approval and eventually OSHA. Harming a patient by giving a high risk patient a transmissible disease is lawsuit worthy and now that FDA has approved it, businesses and cities see the writing on the wall and are following suit with mandates because they have to create a safe working environment.

Moreover, Nurses want to work and are getting strategic about it because the ball is now in their court. Travelers are taking those jobs at $3,000 to $8,000 a week and working alongside nurses making $23 to $48 an hour. That's about $200-$400k per year plus vs $50k per year for the same job, side by side. If you had that kind of option, what would you do? The hospitals have underpaid nurses for along time and it's biting them now. Especially rural hospitals.

Even if this is all wrong, and you think my argument is off, it doesn't make sense to hold back a mandate for fear of the bottom 5% of nurses leaving. Vaccine mandates at hospitals have been in place for decades. Nothing new. Moreover, if a HCW can't put the science together in terms of the effectiveness of a vaccine, do you really think they are going to put the pathophysiology together on their patient? I would think they are probably a bit more dangerous because they are going to miss something else. But as a CEO, you would be ok risking all that money, both future payment, reimbursement, audits, lawsuits to protect 5% of staff? I think it's a strange hill to plant a flag and a good way to close hospital doors, putting everyone out of work and leaving the community it serves in the dust because the hospital would go bankrupt. Society is litigious enough and with FDA approval behind it and previous requirements for vaccine prior to working, there isn't a lot of room to give ground without getting sued.

But more than that, it's about the patient in the bed. Giving them an infection that was largely preventable is beyond negligent. Safety is supposed to be the highest priority in the hospital. Without a safe environment and standards therein to follow, we're a step a way from a 3rd world country in healthcare. Patients are not supposed to get sicker at the hospital, although it does happen, there are processes in place (audits, action plans, fines etc) to deal with it. But to leave the door open for it to happen, is beyond negligent and not worth the minority who are not willing to get vaccinated because the cost overrides the harm of keeping them around.

Here are a few examples below of open job opps plus articles on how HCW are flying to the biggest paycheck now. There are tons more. Just google it if you want to see more.

Travel ICU Nurse Jobs in Idaho - Up To $6,269/wk

Going back to staff job 'just not an option': High travel nurse pay — up to $8K a week — worsens staff shortages

Travel nurses in US offered as much as $8,000 a week

The money is pulling full-time staff nurses into traveling positions, further aggravating the staffing shortage nationwide. Stovall, who is based in North Carolina, said her sister-in-law took a week’s vacation from a full-time nursing gig to pick up an $8,000 traveling contract. She also convinced a longtime friend, Candace Brim, to leave her staff position and travel during the height of the pandemic in December.
Nurse shortages in California reaching crisis point

 

[KingsofLA]

I think you might be misunderstanding. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, it does. Hospitals underhired and underpaid staff. There have been periods where there have been more nurses than jobs and hospitals still refused to hire staff because they wanted to keep profits up. This goes way back and has been an ongoing battle for years. So I"m saying this was preventable and it's still manageable but it was a crisis of their own doing. Even if I'm wrong on this point, it doesn't matter, because risking getting patients sick will put a hospital on the hook for hundreds of thousands of dollars per patient and prevent them from getting paid by Medicare and Medicaid on other patients, which is where a lot of their money comes from. Once reimbursement gets stopped, all patients under insurance plans get looked at, not just one. Negligence costs money. The vaccine is tied to the FDA approval and eventually OSHA. Harming a patient by giving a high risk patient a transmissible disease is lawsuit worthy and now that FDA has approved it, businesses and cities see the writing on the wall and are following suit with mandates because they have to create a safe working environment.

Moreover, Nurses want to work and are getting strategic about it because the ball is now in their court. Travelers are taking those jobs at $3,000 to $8,000 a week and working alongside nurses making $23 to $48 an hour. That's about $200-$400k per year plus vs $50k per year for the same job, side by side. If you had that kind of option, what would you do? The hospitals have underpaid nurses for along time and it's biting them now. Especially rural hospitals.

Even if this is all wrong, and you think my argument is off, it doesn't make sense to hold back a mandate for fear of the bottom 5% of nurses leaving. Vaccine mandates at hospitals have been in place for decades. Nothing new. Moreover, if a HCW can't put the science together in terms of the effectiveness of a vaccine, do you really think they are going to put the pathophysiology together on their patient? I would think they are probably a bit more dangerous because they are going to miss something else. But as a CEO, you would be ok risking all that money, both future payment, reimbursement, audits, lawsuits to protect 5% of staff? I think it's a strange hill to plant a flag and a good way to close hospital doors, putting everyone out of work and leaving the community it serves in the dust because the hospital would go bankrupt. Society is litigious enough and with FDA approval behind it and previous requirements for vaccine prior to working, there isn't a lot of room to give ground without getting sued.

But more than that, it's about the patient in the bed. Giving them an infection that was largely preventable is beyond negligent. Safety is supposed to be the highest priority in the hospital. Without a safe environment and standards therein to follow, we're a step a way from a 3rd world country in healthcare. Patients are not supposed to get sicker at the hospital, although it does happen, there are processes in place (audits, action plans, fines etc) to deal with it. But to leave the door open for it to happen, is beyond negligent and not worth the minority who are not willing to get vaccinated because the cost overrides the harm of keeping them around.

Here are a few examples below of open job opps plus articles on how HCW are flying to the biggest paycheck now. There are tons more. Just google it if you want to see more.

Travel ICU Nurse Jobs in Idaho - Up To $6,269/wk

Going back to staff job 'just not an option': High travel nurse pay — up to $8K a week — worsens staff shortages

Travel nurses in US offered as much as $8,000 a week

The money is pulling full-time staff nurses into traveling positions, further aggravating the staffing shortage nationwide. Stovall, who is based in North Carolina, said her sister-in-law took a week’s vacation from a full-time nursing gig to pick up an $8,000 traveling contract. She also convinced a longtime friend, Candace Brim, to leave her staff position and travel during the height of the pandemic in December.
Nurse shortages in California reaching crisis point

Travel Nursing by the Numbers in 2020 and Beyond (hpcnursing.com)
This seems from a company that hires travel nurses, more than 1.1 million nurses will be needed by 2022 :

• More than 1.1 million new nurses are needed by 2022: The American Nurses Association (ANA) states that more than 500,000 RNs are expected to retire by 2022. With the aging Baby Boomer population requiring additional nurses in the field, this creates a significant nursing shortage. About 1.1 million new RNs are needed to alleviate this shortage. Travel nurses are uniquely positioned to ease the pressure of nursing shortages by providing an extra hand to in-demand hospitals all over the country.

And the US is said to have about 25,000 traveling nurses

• There are approximately 25,000 travel nurses in the U.S.: Travel nursing is far from a niche profession, but it only makes up a portion of all registered nurse (RN) jobs in the country. The demand for travel nurses continues to rise as healthcare needs increase and the nursing shortage worsens. The door is open for more RNs to give travel nursing a shot!

And this does not even account those RN that are about to be fired due to the mandate.

And another thing, cost of living in rural areas is much less than big cities. I think its like 35% cheaper to live in a small town. So wages will not be equal. Lots of hospital workers got Covid and already have natural immunity are considered stronger and longer lasting, than the vaccine.

 

[Fishhead]

Travel Nursing by the Numbers in 2020 and Beyond (hpcnursing.com)
This seems from a company that hires travel nurses, more than 1.1 million nurses will be needed by 2022 :

• More than 1.1 million new nurses are needed by 2022: The American Nurses Association (ANA) states that more than 500,000 RNs are expected to retire by 2022. With the aging Baby Boomer population requiring additional nurses in the field, this creates a significant nursing shortage. About 1.1 million new RNs are needed to alleviate this shortage. Travel nurses are uniquely positioned to ease the pressure of nursing shortages by providing an extra hand to in-demand hospitals all over the country.

And the US is said to have about 25,000 traveling nurses

• There are approximately 25,000 travel nurses in the U.S.: Travel nursing is far from a niche profession, but it only makes up a portion of all registered nurse (RN) jobs in the country. The demand for travel nurses continues to rise as healthcare needs increase and the nursing shortage worsens. The door is open for more RNs to give travel nursing a shot!

And this does not even account those RN that are about to be fired due to the mandate.

And another thing, cost of living in rural areas is much less than big cities. I think its like 35% cheaper to live in a small town. So wages will not be equal. Lots of hospital workers got Covid and already have natural immunity are considered stronger and longer lasting, than the vaccine.

Boomers are definitely driving the need for nurses, but we've seen this coming for a long while. The shortage has nothing to do with vaccines or mandates, though, that just distracts from the real reasons. This was in the works way before COVID.

It makes zero financial sense to get your RN and work somewhere other than a large metro. The lower cost of living offsets the lower wages somewhat, but the cost of education is still there. Most facilities definitely want you to get your BSN, if they do hire you as an ASN often you have to agree to get your BSN within a certain time frame (according to nurses I know well, anyways). Dropping 30 grand on a degree isn't as big of a problem if you are going to work in OC and make close to 6 figures, you can pay it off in a few years. It's a hell of a lot though if you are making less than $20 per hour at a rural facility, it will take you years to pay that off at a lower salary. The opportunity cost of those payments is enormous as it almost always restricts investment and saving for the future, which is where you make the real money. It's literally hundreds of thousands of dollars of long-term earnings. It's not a big deal if you want to work into your 70's, but who really wants to do that?

Want to solve the future nursing shortage? Make programs more affordable so it actually becomes a viable pathway. They bribe new teachers by subsidizing their education if they work at high need schools, just do the same for nurses. Any shortages will evaporate.

 

[Papa Mocha 15]

Travel Nursing by the Numbers in 2020 and Beyond (hpcnursing.com)
This seems from a company that hires travel nurses, more than 1.1 million nurses will be needed by 2022 :

• More than 1.1 million new nurses are needed by 2022: The American Nurses Association (ANA) states that more than 500,000 RNs are expected to retire by 2022. With the aging Baby Boomer population requiring additional nurses in the field, this creates a significant nursing shortage. About 1.1 million new RNs are needed to alleviate this shortage. Travel nurses are uniquely positioned to ease the pressure of nursing shortages by providing an extra hand to in-demand hospitals all over the country.

And the US is said to have about 25,000 traveling nurses

• There are approximately 25,000 travel nurses in the U.S.: Travel nursing is far from a niche profession, but it only makes up a portion of all registered nurse (RN) jobs in the country. The demand for travel nurses continues to rise as healthcare needs increase and the nursing shortage worsens. The door is open for more RNs to give travel nursing a shot!

And this does not even account those RN that are about to be fired due to the mandate.

And another thing, cost of living in rural areas is much less than big cities. I think its like 35% cheaper to live in a small town. So wages will not be equal. Lots of hospital workers got Covid and already have natural immunity are considered stronger and longer lasting, than the vaccine.

Not really. A lot of new nurses who can't get jobs in the city because they don't interview well, speak the language etc have to start at rural hospitals because they need a place to start. It's not always that way, but that's how the system works. Or if they wash out of the city hospital, get fired etc, they get scooped up by the rural hospitals. Some are there by choice and that's fine too, but there is more to it than what you are saying. People get paid what they are worth. That's at the heart of the capitalist system. The tables are turned now and people are fleeing for the increased rate. No one saw this coming but it's where we are.

Re: travel nurses that number is way higher now since many left the local hospitals to travel for a better paycheck since they were underpaid. We've known about the shortage far beyond 10 years, it was projected. This is frankly what happens when we prioritize profits over health. It was preventable.

Re: the shortage and creating more nurses to fill gaps. Do you know how many applicants there are to nursing schools? Thousands upon thousands that can't get a slot. Very qualified individuals but there aren't enough schools. My interview was a full day of interviews that lasted 7 hours. Most cohorts can only take 20 to 60 students. If they wanted to fix this, they would. Keep in mind, hospitals have also not hired more nurses because they focused on profits instead of running an efficient system.

To be honest, we are sort of waiting for the unvaxed RNs to leave our ICU and floors so we can go back to eating in groups again. Nurses talk about them regularly. They are sort of holding back our potlucks and it cramps our style. We work in close proximity with them, have to share our break rooms with them where we eat unmasked 4 feet apart and are just waiting for them to go. We don't want to carry something home to our families or unvaxed kids. We're seeing this mimicked with the rest of the economy. Some people are choosing not to go back to work because they don't feel safe yet.

But your biggest point is to not get the vaccine is because it contributes to the nursing shortage. The nurse shortage is not the tipping point to not get a vaccine. We've been dealing with a nursing shortage for years. It's not new and it's not going to break society or our health system anymore than it already is broken. We're beyond the worst of the pandemic and are coming out of it in most areas and have sufficient contingencies in place. I think we have a few more waves to go, but safety is the higher priority and important to right ship when it comes to patient care and moving forward. Hospitals will simply close when they don't get paid if the mandates are not in place because the hospitals will get sued for creating an unsafe environment for its patients. OSHA will too see to that. You can't keep doors open if you're hurting patients and no one investor will invest in a losing cause. It's economics 101. The standard is vaccines are mandated to work in healthcare. Just to attend nursing school, you can't step into the hospital as a student unless all the vaccine info is submitted. There is no way around it. There is no exception. If one doesn't like it, find another career. People have that freedom and this is the direction the US is going anyway.

Re: vaccines vs immunity. Studies show that the vaccines on top of the infection is much safer for everyone involved. Way beyond any natural immunity. There is certainly immunity post infection but its difficult to measure, we don't know how long it lasts and people lie and it's hard to prove. There is no cavalry coming to say, let's spend millions of dollars on a study to give someone an exemption because they don't feel like getting vaccinated when it's the standard already in the industry and has been in place. It's a fun idea for the sake of studying, but no one is going to study it when it can be just as easily legislated to move on.

I'm more direct now because I just finished my 2nd night shift and have one more night shift to go. Hope I wasn't being too curt. Best.

 

[KingsofLA]

Not really. A lot of new nurses who can't get jobs in the city because they don't interview well, speak the language etc have to start at rural hospitals because they need a place to start. It's not always that way, but that's how the system works. Or if they wash out of the city hospital, get fired etc, they get scooped up by the rural hospitals. Some are there by choice and that's fine too, but there is more to it than what you are saying. People get paid what they are worth. That's at the heart of the capitalist system. The tables are turned now and people are fleeing for the increased rate. No one saw this coming but it's where we are.

Re: travel nurses that number is way higher now since many left the local hospitals to travel for a better paycheck since they were underpaid. We've known about the shortage far beyond 10 years, it was projected. This is frankly what happens when we prioritize profits over health. It was preventable.

Re: the shortage and creating more nurses to fill gaps. Do you know how many applicants there are to nursing schools? Thousands upon thousands that can't get a slot. Very qualified individuals but there aren't enough schools. My interview was a full day of interviews that lasted 7 hours. Most cohorts can only take 20 to 60 students. If they wanted to fix this, they would. Keep in mind, hospitals have also not hired more nurses because they focused on profits instead of running an efficient system.

To be honest, we are sort of waiting for the unvaxed RNs to leave our ICU and floors so we can go back to eating in groups again. Nurses talk about them regularly. They are sort of holding back our potlucks and it cramps our style. We work in close proximity with them, have to share our break rooms with them where we eat unmasked 4 feet apart and are just waiting for them to go. We don't want to carry something home to our families or unvaxed kids. We're seeing this mimicked with the rest of the economy. Some people are choosing not to go back to work because they don't feel safe yet.

But your biggest point is to not get the vaccine is because it contributes to the nursing shortage. The nurse shortage is not the tipping point to not get a vaccine. We've been dealing with a nursing shortage for years. It's not new and it's not going to break society or our health system anymore than it already is broken. We're beyond the worst of the pandemic and are coming out of it in most areas and have sufficient contingencies in place. I think we have a few more waves to go, but safety is the higher priority and important to right ship when it comes to patient care and moving forward. Hospitals will simply close when they don't get paid if the mandates are not in place because the hospitals will get sued for creating an unsafe environment for its patients. OSHA will too see to that. You can't keep doors open if you're hurting patients and no one investor will invest in a losing cause. It's economics 101. The standard is vaccines are mandated to work in healthcare. Just to attend nursing school, you can't step into the hospital as a student unless all the vaccine info is submitted. There is no way around it. There is no exception. If one doesn't like it, find another career. People have that freedom and this is the direction the US is going anyway.

Re: vaccines vs immunity. Studies show that the vaccines on top of the infection is much safer for everyone involved. Way beyond any natural immunity. There is certainly immunity post infection but its difficult to measure, we don't know how long it lasts and people lie and it's hard to prove. There is no cavalry coming to say, let's spend millions of dollars on a study to give someone an exemption because they don't feel like getting vaccinated when it's the standard already in the industry and has been in place. It's a fun idea for the sake of studying, but no one is going to study it when it can be just as easily legislated to move on.

I'm more direct now because I just finished my 2nd night shift and have one more night shift to go. Hope I wasn't being too curt. Best.

My point is that its not an easy fix, to replace unvaccinated medical personal with travel nurses and National Guard when shortage already exist. The National Guard and the Reserve have about 10,000 Nurses combine. Add that to the stat i posted.

You know where big companies cant make that much money, Natural Immunity. Studies are out about natural immunity, but for some reason, big Pharma probably does don't want the gov't to look to deep. Here is a study from Israel who had like a 85% vaccination rate in very short time:

Study: Natural immunity 'stronger, longer' than vaccine immunity - Israel National News
Quote from article
Researchers found that natural immunity is stronger and longer-lasting than vaccination, but also noted that a single-dose of vaccine likely can offer additional protection from the Delta Variant to those who recovered from SARS-CoV-2.

And here Dr Fauci being asked about Natural Immunity:


And while those unvaccinated got additional protection by getting a does afterward, some folks rather not risk some of the side effects associated with the vaccine.

I have family in the health department and the vaccine mandates before Covid were almost non existing. Cheers, its been fun. Discourses with two different point of views should happen with a light heart, hope you can have them with your unvaccinated co-workers

 

[Papa Mocha 15]

My point is that its not an easy fix, to replace unvaccinated medical personal with travel nurses and National Guard when shortage already exist. The National Guard and the Reserve have about 10,000 Nurses combine. Add that to the stat i posted.

You know where big companies cant make that much money, Natural Immunity. Studies are out about natural immunity, but for some reason, big Pharma probably does don't want the gov't to look to deep. Here is a study from Israel who had like a 85% vaccination rate in very short time:

Study: Natural immunity 'stronger, longer' than vaccine immunity - Israel National News
Quote from article
Researchers found that natural immunity is stronger and longer-lasting than vaccination, but also noted that a single-dose of vaccine likely can offer additional protection from the Delta Variant to those who recovered from SARS-CoV-2.

And here Dr Fauci being asked about Natural Immunity:


And while those unvaccinated got additional protection by getting a does afterward, some folks rather not risk some of the side effects associated with the vaccine.

I have family in the health department and the vaccine mandates before Covid were almost non existing. Cheers, its been fun. Discourses with two different point of views should happen with a light heart, hope you can have them with your unvaccinated co-workers

It would be nice but that ship sailed long ago. You see some of our nurses have been there since the 1980s. 40 years. They worked the HIV, SARS, MERS pandemics in the ICU. They made us faster, better and quicker on our thinking. They pulled us through our own bullshit. Crusty, old, bitter, snarky and intelligent and downright mean at times. They take on the heavier loads and make it look easy. They don't complain even though their backs are killing them and you can see how tired they are. With that,, since they are older, they have commorbidities. COVID is both respiratory and vascular disease which his why everyone with diabetes and hypertension are sort of sitting ducks if they have other stuff going on. And they do.....

Some of these older nurses are immune compromised. They would die if they caught this despite vaccination because they are on immunosupressants (hence the boosters) and they still show up on the Covid ICU, of all the GD places. The reality is we all work in very tight quarters together, turning our patients and getting side by side frequently when someone is crashing, grabbing meds, slamming them. We call it a controlled chaos where tensions are very high and we don't always win. Some of these younger nurses take off their masks wherever to eat and drink so they can still watch their patient nearby during a brief downtime but still need to be near to titrate a med so they can run into the room. Management tells us not to eat on the floor but &*(& that. Nurses need to eat and stay hydrated but it risks other nurses nearby. Our break room is small and the unvaxed sharing room without masks with those who are immune compromised during mealtime is a challenge. The unvaxed are endangering the older generation of nurses because they are careless and they don't think about what it's like to be immune compromised and take precautions for the unit. They take off their masks wherever, because it doesn't occur to them and the older generation might be compromised and the older gen isn't forthcoming about their own diagnosis. So when they see some 20 to 30 year olds decide they aren't going to get the vaccine d/t their political theories, I'm sure you can image how they feel and the riff it creates. It's turned into fights. Some have gotten Covid already, some haven't. Not everyone says or is up front about it. On the other side, some of the staff wouldn't reveal if they got the vaccine or not so the older nurses were looking over their shoulder in the break room and everyone is claiming my body, my right to privacy. Until it finally came out with the mandates, then we all knew. A few of them were in tears after because they felt singled out but at least we know now. So to make it easier, we now schedule breaks around these groups not being around each other, but it was pulling teeth trying to ID who was and who wasn't. Most companies won't even do this much or tolerate it, but our floor does because it is a COVID unit and we see the same shit with the same result everyday, so we make room to be volatile with each other because we can separate it when things go wrong and do the job. That's an ICU or an ED for you. But to sum it up. They now can't share the break rooms at the same time to better protect the immune compromised, but getting there took a mandate. ICU nurses are the worst and the best. Each one of them "knows" they are right because they are paid to be right. So it isn't light hearted because we all know, every few days or more than once per shift, there is a long box that comes to wheel the next body down to the morgue. We've all taken care of enough doctors and nurses as patients. Seeing one of our own get a trach is rough, especially if you've known them and worked with them for 10 or more years because they didn't beat the vent, but they didn't die either. It's been that real. I've been tuned up once or twice too for being careless like not closing a door fully and I felt like a private at boot camp at the time.

The thing is, every corporation out there is going to have to deal with this on some level and it won't be pretty. Hence the great resignation we're seeing. Everyone has a right to privacy, a right to work in a safe environment, a right not to not get killed when they go to work and a right to be treated fairly in their eyes. And if they are a patient, to be treated by someone who we can 99% of time guarantee won't get them sick. And no one wants to give. So now there is a remedy and one side is just running out the clock on the other side.

But I think our own experiences being human makes everything real no matter where we are because we all have gone through this pandemic together, yet alone in our quarantine with our experience and ability and inability to cope. I think a lot of us are better than before because we can argue and hash it out here and other places and gotten smarter by continuing to engage. Others will spin in their own circles and it's hard to tell which is which sometimes. One experience doesn't diminish another's, but it may just give us a different perspective on how to beat this and move forward and think of a new path or perspective, even if we can't agree on an immediate solution. That's the journey. At least, it's something to think about. I'm much more at peace with my way of thinking and being these days and have been able to be more logical in how I work and navigate this path. It's made me quick to defend those who can't be defended and I've gotten a raised eyebrow for it at times at work, but I'm cool with that because that's how we learn and grow. If I need a tune up, so be it. If not, keep going. If we don't throw our thoughts out there to be criticized, we'll ever get better or learn to defend or stand our own ground or rethink our position. So in along winded way, thanks for the discourse. Best.

 

[Maynard]

Much respect to @Papa Mocha 15 for sharing your knowledge and first hand experience. It’s refreshing to see someone politely batting around a bunch of bozos with alternative science. They find some obscure article or pull some out of context data from a study that is at best inconclusive and they cling to it and fight for it, even if it flies in the face of what the entire medical community is recommending. No good data, just a contrary opinion and a dose of “rugged individualism” (yuck) and maybe some YouTube clips. Throwing aside medical consensus and going “yeah but…”.

I’m so sick of it.

 

[Lt Dan]

Friday's numbers

 

[KingsofLA]

It would be nice but that ship sailed long ago. You see some of our nurses have been there since the 1980s. 40 years. They worked the HIV, SARS, MERS pandemics in the ICU. They made us faster, better and quicker on our thinking. They pulled us through our own bullshit. Crusty, old, bitter, snarky and intelligent and downright mean at times. They take on the heavier loads and make it look easy. They don't complain even though their backs are killing them and you can see how tired they are. With that,, since they are older, they have commorbidities. COVID is both respiratory and vascular disease which his why everyone with diabetes and hypertension are sort of sitting ducks if they have other stuff going on. And they do.....

Some of these older nurses are immune compromised. They would die if they caught this despite vaccination because they are on immunosupressants (hence the boosters) and they still show up on the Covid ICU, of all the GD places. The reality is we all work in very tight quarters together, turning our patients and getting side by side frequently when someone is crashing, grabbing meds, slamming them. We call it a controlled chaos where tensions are very high and we don't always win. Some of these younger nurses take off their masks wherever to eat and drink so they can still watch their patient nearby during a brief downtime but still need to be near to titrate a med so they can run into the room. Management tells us not to eat on the floor but &*(& that. Nurses need to eat and stay hydrated but it risks other nurses nearby. Our break room is small and the unvaxed sharing room without masks with those who are immune compromised during mealtime is a challenge. The unvaxed are endangering the older generation of nurses because they are careless and they don't think about what it's like to be immune compromised and take precautions for the unit. They take off their masks wherever, because it doesn't occur to them and the older generation might be compromised and the older gen isn't forthcoming about their own diagnosis. So when they see some 20 to 30 year olds decide they aren't going to get the vaccine d/t their political theories, I'm sure you can image how they feel and the riff it creates. It's turned into fights. Some have gotten Covid already, some haven't. Not everyone says or is up front about it. On the other side, some of the staff wouldn't reveal if they got the vaccine or not so the older nurses were looking over their shoulder in the break room and everyone is claiming my body, my right to privacy. Until it finally came out with the mandates, then we all knew. A few of them were in tears after because they felt singled out but at least we know now. So to make it easier, we now schedule breaks around these groups not being around each other, but it was pulling teeth trying to ID who was and who wasn't. Most companies won't even do this much or tolerate it, but our floor does because it is a COVID unit and we see the same shit with the same result everyday, so we make room to be volatile with each other because we can separate it when things go wrong and do the job. That's an ICU or an ED for you. But to sum it up. They now can't share the break rooms at the same time to better protect the immune compromised, but getting there took a mandate. ICU nurses are the worst and the best. Each one of them "knows" they are right because they are paid to be right. So it isn't light hearted because we all know, every few days or more than once per shift, there is a long box that comes to wheel the next body down to the morgue. We've all taken care of enough doctors and nurses as patients. Seeing one of our own get a trach is rough, especially if you've known them and worked with them for 10 or more years because they didn't beat the vent, but they didn't die either. It's been that real. I've been tuned up once or twice too for being careless like not closing a door fully and I felt like a private at boot camp at the time.

The thing is, every corporation out there is going to have to deal with this on some level and it won't be pretty. Hence the great resignation we're seeing. Everyone has a right to privacy, a right to work in a safe environment, a right not to not get killed when they go to work and a right to be treated fairly in their eyes. And if they are a patient, to be treated by someone who we can 99% of time guarantee won't get them sick. And no one wants to give. So now there is a remedy and one side is just running out the clock on the other side.

But I think our own experiences being human makes everything real no matter where we are because we all have gone through this pandemic together, yet alone in our quarantine with our experience and ability and inability to cope. I think a lot of us are better than before because we can argue and hash it out here and other places and gotten smarter by continuing to engage. Others will spin in their own circles and it's hard to tell which is which sometimes. One experience doesn't diminish another's, but it may just give us a different perspective on how to beat this and move forward and think of a new path or perspective, even if we can't agree on an immediate solution. That's the journey. At least, it's something to think about. I'm much more at peace with my way of thinking and being these days and have been able to be more logical in how I work and navigate this path. It's made me quick to defend those who can't be defended and I've gotten a raised eyebrow for it at times at work, but I'm cool with that because that's how we learn and grow. If I need a tune up, so be it. If not, keep going. If we don't throw our thoughts out there to be criticized, we'll ever get better or learn to defend or stand our own ground or rethink our position. So in along winded way, thanks for the discourse. Best.

We all have concerns, the thing is that they all vary. You are concerned about your patients and aged health care workers, they might be concerned of the side effects where they won't be able to take care of their young children and while the death are nothing compared to Covid, they have happen. I know of cases from folks who were vaxed, and within 24 hours have had a side effects, with some not with us anymore. So communication is key to understanding. Fear drives both sides to split up us in a hard stance, but that is where the science needs to interject. I believe that if someone is not sick of Covid, fear should not exist in any work place setting. A simple solution should be to test both unvaxed and the vaxed as well. To only test the vaxed is borderline discrimination, when the science says the vax can get (while the chances of the getting it is less), but if they can get it, they can spread it. So test everyone so all employees be at ease and all are treated equal. And while testing is not perfect, it does add a layer of protection, plus the future is always full of new innovation....if we can get everyone back to work, jk

My sister is an RT at one of the UCLA Medical centers who has had Covid with diabetes, but "That old witch is fine." I love her. We all do things for those that we love and we have to be respectful of those decision. Their is a lot science and a lot data coming, and just because a conservative outlet or someone like TYT is providing the data from an outlet, it should not be thrown in the trash. That is how you end up in an echo chamber, where you are right and everyone else is wrong because your tribe is the only one feeding you news and that narrative is final. I say provide the data and let the scientist debate out their studies, not censor it. Scientist with opposing data should get together to make things clearer. Dr Anthony Fauci and Dr Robert Malone. Its public knowledge that the Director of the FDA's Office of Vaccine Research & Review is stepping down and retiring early due to disagreeing with the WH booster process and another Deputy Director was also stepping down and retiring early for the same reason. cheers bro, i respect your opinion and concerns, wish you and all the folkies the best in your hospitals

 

[Lt Dan]

Sat, Sun and Mon

222 cases a day
Hosp down big from Friday 210-----> 175
ICU down from 39---> 34


Big picture, we are definitely on the end of this wave . The obvious question is how long until the next wave? and how bad will it be

 

[Statto]

Much respect to @Papa Mocha 15 for sharing your knowledge and first hand experience. It’s refreshing to see someone politely batting around a bunch of bozos with alternative science. They find some obscure article or pull some out of context data from a study that is at best inconclusive and they cling to it and fight for it, even if it flies in the face of what the entire medical community is recommending. No good data, just a contrary opinion and a dose of “rugged individualism” (yuck) and maybe some YouTube clips. Throwing aside medical consensus and going “yeah but…”.

I’m so sick of it.

I tend not to post much in these debates because they anti-vaccine position is fundamentally a philosophical one and no rational, fact based argument will affect the debate. In the earlier days of the FaceBook anti vax movement, when I’d just been medically retired, I dealt with my boredom by joining some of those pages and politely pointing out all the lies they were peddling. Even back then (12+ years) it was the same stuff quoting anecdotal evidence, ‘renowned’ doctors who happened to also sell a natural alternative, cherry picking bits and pieces from studies of of context and the rare system failures. They were absolutely convinced of a conspiracy with Big Pharma, that hundred of thousands of employees somehow managed to keep quiet. There was zero willingness to take on board actual facts and I’d know when I’d win the arguments because all my posts get would deleted and I’d be banned. I always behaved nice and politely but a different opinion wasn’t welcomed. Some people just want to believe that there is a conspiracy, for whatever reason, so I just find it utterly pointless to argue.

It’s the same with the Covid vaccine. People have taken up a position on the need for it, again for varying reasons (I’m not saying everyone is a full on anti-vax person), and they won’t change their view for love nor money. The cherry picking of ‘facts’ is so familiar, context usage is disingenuous and so on. The arguments follow here the exact pattern of the anti vax position, albeit they have evolved and a bit better constructed, where no rational position will affect anything.

So I occasionally read the thread, chuckle and move on. Today, I’m bored so I’m posting. The conspiracy is the Anti Vax movement, lets be clear.

 

[Bandit]

I tend not to post much in these debates because they anti-vaccine position is fundamentally a philosophical one and no rational, fact based argument will affect the debate. In the earlier days of the FaceBook anti vax movement, when I’d just been medically retired, I dealt with my boredom by joining some of those pages and politely pointing out all the lies they were peddling. Even back then (12+ years) it was the same stuff quoting anecdotal evidence, ‘renowned’ doctors who happened to also sell a natural alternative, cherry picking bits and pieces from studies of of context and the rare system failures. They were absolutely convinced of a conspiracy with Big Pharma, that hundred of thousands of employees somehow managed to keep quiet. There was zero willingness to take on board actual facts and I’d know when I’d win the arguments because all my posts get would deleted and I’d be banned. I always behaved nice and politely but a different opinion wasn’t welcomed. Some people just want to believe that there is a conspiracy, for whatever reason, so I just find it utterly pointless to argue.

It’s the same with the Covid vaccine. People have taken up a position on the need for it, again for varying reasons (I’m not saying everyone is a full on anti-vax person), and they won’t change their view for love nor money. The cherry picking of ‘facts’ is so familiar, context usage is disingenuous and so on. The arguments follow here the exact pattern of the anti vax position, albeit they have evolved and a bit better constructed, where no rational position will affect anything.

So I occasionally read the thread, chuckle and move on. Today, I’m bored so I’m posting. The conspiracy is the Anti Vax movement, lets be clear.

Pretty much this:

 

[Schrute farms]

The frustrating thing for me these days is the extremists on both sides of issues seemingly prevents people in the middle from having true & meaningful discussions about concerns/issues. Anything that is not 100% for or against (depending on which side you speak to) is automatically branded as extremism, crazy, lies, following the herd, conspiracy, etc. This now goes for politics (& other social issues) too.

For example, my wife and I both are vaxxed -- we got our parents vaxxed. All our relatives are vaxxed. However, I am still somewhat unsure and concerned about having kids vaxxed on CV. It's likely fine and safe for them. But people who say we have vaxs for other items, long history of vaxs, these are proven safe, etc. -- it's apples & oranges. This is a new type of vax -- that's a fact (even though it's been around a while). We have limited LT history -- that's a fact (we're 10-12 months in). Are healthy young kids necessary to have it or should they wait until they are fully grown (18+). Not to mention the Govt and big parma concerns about truth, safety, well-being, etc.. As i said, likely all these issues are nothing and it's totally fine for kids to take it and it's necessary as well. But if someone can NOT see how a parent would some concerns rather than just accepting it, then I'd say you are either not a parent or you are the crazy one. Heck, I have concerns about many safe things my kids do -- that's being a parent. Things i let them do, but it's my job to be concerned and maybe over-think it...and maybe be too involved just to be safe guarded. But it seems just mentioning concerns and you get automatically labeled as something far extreme. It's bizarre what society has become these days. There is no real discussion allowed to fully understand both sides and come to a well informed decision. It's either you are with me or against me. smh

Personally, anyone who is 100% on an issue and won't listen, be open minded, see the other side, etc. is someone i do not trust. Even things i know with absolute truth, I can still see or willing to see opposing views. How can you know something for sure without understanding the other side.

 

[Fishhead]

Yeah it's tough for parents. I'm as science as it gets, yet I'll still hesitate with my 8 year old. If he was 16, I would be much less hesitant. It's that completely overprotective instinct that makes us want to cover them in bubble wrap.

 

[SmytheKing]

Yeah it's tough for parents. I'm as science as it gets, yet I'll still hesitate with my 8 year old. If he was 16, I would be much less hesitant. It's that completely overprotective instinct that makes us want to cover them in bubble wrap.

I think most people understand that position. It's not an easy thing when it comes to little kids. I don't think that's the main argument though. Most folks are discussing the position that "natural immunity" is better at this point. That's just a crazy position to take. To get "natural immunity" you need to get COVID first. There's no one in their right mind who thinks that's a better idea than getting a vaccine. In fact, every single medical study done where "natural immunity" is looked at, also says...yeah but get the vaccine too.

I just don't get how those folks overlook that their main position is that they're suggesting everyone get COVID instead of a vaccine. Wild.