GDT: GDT #5 Colorado Avalanche vs New York Islanders | October 24th | 8 PM | F/7-4 L

[Lights911]

This team needs a new HC.

 

[MJF]

This is just nonsense. No one is saying to use Doug Weight's style. Are the AVS, Devils, Buffalo using Weight's run and gun style?

Those teams all have a defenseman who is mobile and skilled handed enough to almost be an extra forward. So I hear what you are saying.

The Isles problem is the players they have are neither mobile or skilled enough to even play a D first system without getting worn down by the opposition.

Just “turning Barzal loose” would only result in what he was before. A player who did rink curls trying to be elusive while looking for the open man who couldn’t get the puck or couldn’t finish. It’s pointless for him to be a 1 + 22 player.

The problem is the pieces we have on hand now, more than the system. They can’t defend against speed. There are more teams going the Avs/Devils/Sabres/Kings route each year.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

Those teams all have a defenseman who is mobile and skilled handed enough to almost be an extra forward. So I hear what you are saying.

The Isles problem is the players they have are neither mobile or skilled enough to even play a D first system without getting worn down by the opposition.

Just “turning Barzal loose” would only result in what he was before. A player who did rink curls trying to be elusive while looking for the open man who couldn’t get the puck or couldn’t finish. It’s pointless for him to be a 1 + 22 player.

The problem is the pieces we have on hand now, more than the system. They can’t defend against speed. There are more teams going the Avs/Devils/Sabres/Kings route each year.

Can't make chicken salad out of... Although Trotz sure did come close.

This team needs a new HC.

Tough to fire a coach after his first season where he takes them to the playoffs (after missing the season prior).

 

[Rehabguy]

alright and neither does our defense. Team has to find a proper identity. Barzal can score all the points he wants, it ain't solving our defense thats swiss cheese.

Well that's the coaches job to come up with a system that works for the roster we have. The question will always be- is it the roster or the system?

 

[Osakahaus]

This team needs a new HC.

if Lambert can't rite the ship by November, yeah

 

[Throttle]

He should be in his prime. The system the Islanders currently play does not take advantage of what our top player brings to the table.

He’s not the Isles top player…

 

[Rehabguy]

Those teams all have a defenseman who is mobile and skilled handed enough to almost be an extra forward. So I hear what you are saying.

The Isles problem is the players they have are neither mobile or skilled enough to even play a D first system without getting worn down by the opposition.

Just “turning Barzal loose” would only result in what he was before. A player who did rink curls trying to be elusive while looking for the open man who couldn’t get the puck or couldn’t finish. It’s pointless for him to be a 1 + 22 player.

The problem is the pieces we have on hand now, more than the system. They can’t defend against speed. There are more teams going the Avs/Devils/Sabres/Kings route each year.

Well this is the big gamble Lou took. He brought in grinders in lieu of players who can skate thinking that that was what was needed in a D first system. Leddy, Toews, Eberle, Beaviller all had one thing in common- they could skate.

Realizing his mistake he brings in Engvall and Gauthier to bring speed back to the line-up. Good players but not exactly the solution.

I'm ready to see an unshackled Barzal. I'm willing to see a 1+22 player team if he can be the game breaker I think he can be and has been shown to be even as a rookie. Who wasn't impressed with what they saw until then they clipped his wings a short year later? One player using his extraordinary skills should be not bring down a 23 roster team but a system that plays "not to lose" will.

The team's problems should not fall one one player's shoulders. Barzal is part of the solution, he's not the problem.

 

[WangMustGo]

He’s not the Isles top player…

The islanders dont have a "top" player. They have 3 good, but nowhere near great forwards, and a few decent defensemen.

 

[Mr Misunderstood]

He’s not the Isles top player…

Barzal is a weird way to spell Nelson

 

[Rehabguy]

He’s not the Isles top player…

Either way if it's Sorokin you are referring to, I'm not going to blame Sorokin for allowing 10 goals the last 2 games he played. I'm not going to say it's the style of goaltending he plays which cost the Islanders those games. It takes a team to win or lose but it's up to the HC to come up with a system that suits the team in front of him. The system they are playing is not or no longer is working. Time to make some changes.

 

[Osakahaus]

Anyone think its depressing how fast Vegas and Tampa develops players to replace holes, yet the islanders can't find a replacement at all for anything from their minor leagues?

 

[Rehabguy]

Anyone think its depressing how fast Vegas and Tampa develops players to replace holes, yet the islanders can't find a replacement at all for anything from their minor leagues?

Not surprising. We have a GM trading away 1st round picks like hot potatoes. The cupboard is bare.

 

[Throttle]

The islanders dont have a "top" player. They have 3 good, but nowhere near great forwards, and a few decent defensemen.

Well, 8 or 9M+ for good players just doesn’t work.

 

[Osakahaus]

thread theme

 

[Rehabguy]

Yep. It's part of what makes me curious to see what Horvat does honestly. He's shown a willingness to try and beat guys 1 on 1 and that's one way to create more opportunities to score. Most of our players just curl back if it's a 2 on 2 and don't even attempt to make a play. The guys you mentioned are always looking for ways to turn those situations into better situations and we need more willingness to do that from the team.

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Skilled players like Horvat and Barzal should be willing to try to beat guys 1 on 1 and in regards to Barzal this is what he does best. He's shown the ability to beat teams 2 or even 3 on 1. Instead, because of the risk adverse system that has been pounded into their heads for the last 5 years they are just curling back and don't even attempt to make a play. That's NOT the players that's the system. Goring commented last night that the defense needs to be jumping into the play more but they're not. Again that's the system. They are worried that they are going to be screamed at for missing their assignments or lead to an odd man break the other way. The game is all about taking chances. That's sport. This is not chess. The system the team is being asked to play is doing this not the players.

 

[PK Cronin]

I hate to break it to you but we're not exactly a prize winning team either. I know TB is not a run and gun team.

You're the one who listed them as that...

Again, are you satisfied with the Isles game? Do they just keep doing what they are doing and lose year after year?


There comes a point where they have to say it's simply not working and they need to try something new.

I'm not "satisfied" with the their game, no. I always say that I'll give any team ten games to sort their shit out before getting on them. Every season has teams overachieving or underachieving out of the gate. Who had Edmonton, who play the style you're advocating for with significantly better talent, starting the season with 1 win in their first 6 games?

Throwing shit at the wall is never a solution. If you're at that point then you shouldn't be in charge or making decisions.

I'm on record as saying I'd have moved on from the fourth line before their most recent contracts (other than Cizikas). I think this team should've started integrating outside help earlier than this but they should look to stop using them ASAP. I like the Horvat move and the Engvall deals. I think they need to stop with the Aho/Bolduc thing and bring in a player like Gostisbehere who could help the power play immensely and provide similar defensive output as Aho/Bolduc do.

What do you do now with the season? They're five games in, I'm not panicking yet. I think structurally they actually need to play more east/west when breaking out of their own end rather than the north/south they've been trying to. Their passes are picked off because the defense isn't moving and their telegraphing their passes to slow/stationary forwards. They need to break out closer to their own blue line and use speed through the neutral zone with Engvall, Barzal, and Horvat to generate odd man rushes. We need Dobson jumping up into the play more as the fourth or third guy during these transition phases. What we have right now is a 3 forwards who go up and 2 defensemen who sit back. I'd go with a 2-1-2 forecheck that pushes the pace and creates havoc in the offensive zone.

Anyone think its depressing how fast Vegas and Tampa develops players to replace holes, yet the islanders can't find a replacement at all for anything from their minor leagues?

Vegas has bought their entire core, who have they developed?

 

[PK Cronin]

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Skilled players like Horvat and Barzal should be willing to try to beat guys 1 on 1 and in regards to Barzal this is what he does best. He's shown the ability to beat teams 2 or even 3 on 1. Instead, because of the risk adverse system that has been pounded into their heads for the last 5 years they are just curling back and don't even attempt to make a play. That's NOT the players that's the system. Goring commented last night that the defense needs to be jumping into the play more but they're not. Again that's the system. They are worried that they are going to be screamed at for missing their assignments or lead to an odd man break the other way. The game is all about taking chances. That's sport. This is not chess.

I fundamentally disagree. It's absolutely chess.

 

[Osakahaus]

Vegas has bought their entire core, who have they developed?

Paul Cotter, Zach Whitecloud, Logan Thompson, Pavel Dorofeyev, and Nic Hague. Man if only the islanders could do that with their career minor leaguers.

 

[PK Cronin]

Paul Cotter, Zach Whitecloud, Logan Thompson, Pavel Dorofeyev, and Nic Hague. Man if only the islanders could do that with their career minor leaguers.

Meh, it's a lot easier to do that when you have guys like Pietrangelo, Eichel, Stone, etc. It's like the Penguins being able to get guys to play with Crosby and Malkin in their primes. Just plug'em in and watch it work. I don't know most of those guys you listed so we'll see how they turn out at the end of the season.

 

[Rehabguy]

What do you do now with the season? They're five games in, I'm not panicking yet. I think structurally they actually need to play more east/west when breaking out of their own end rather than the north/south they've been trying to. Their passes are picked off because the defense isn't moving and their telegraphing their passes to slow/stationary forwards. They need to break out closer to their own blue line and use speed through the neutral zone with Engvall, Barzal, and Horvat to generate odd man rushes. We need Dobson jumping up into the play more as the fourth or third guy during these transition phases. What we have right now is a 3 forwards who go up and 2 defensemen who sit back. I'd go with a 2-1-2 forecheck that pushes the pace and creates havoc in the offensive zone.

That's a system change. That's opening up the game. The current system has them sitting back on their heels.

 

[Throttle]

Hopefully, Pettersson doesn’t want to resign in Vancouver and Lou can flip Barzal for him.

 

[Rehabguy]

I fundamentally disagree. It's absolutely chess.

Well there's our differences right there. In my book sport is not a brainless, mindless pursuit but it's not chess either. Sport is about instincts, being in the zone, staying loose and using your physical attributes, strength speed, reflexes, and skill to beat the opposing player. The British over thought their structure during the Revolutionary War much to their detriment while the colonists invented guerilla warfare. You're not in an armchair playing chess. Unfortunately this is what Lambert and even moreso Trotz had the team doing. To some degree it was successful but when it counted the most it failed. Instead of going with their instincts the players are overthinking the game too much to their own detriment.

I don't want this team playing pond hockey. There has to be some structure but the team needs to get back to what makes them athletes. Barzal, Pulock, Dobson, Nelson, Horvat- these players need to be utilizing the assets that make them special. They are not pawns on a chessboard. Let them be athletes.

 

[PK Cronin]

That's a system change. That's opening up the game. The current system has them sitting back on their heels.

It is a slight system change, but it's certainly not opening up the game. Tortorella runs a 2-1-2 forecheck and nobody would confuse his systems for being open.

The issue with this conversation is that you're not providing anything but generic statements but you have a lot of opinions and thoughts about what should be done without getting any specifics. You want the players to just use their god given abilities and be more free-flowing out there. That's not a system, that's not a structure, that's not how successful teams win. It's very easy to sit here and say, "they need more offense, open it up!" It's another thing to pinpoint what exactly you'd do. You're free to say, "hey, they need more offense but I'm not sure how they can create that." I certainly don't have all the answers either but you need to have some starting point when making these assertions. You're also giving examples of teams who are having success with the type of offense you want to see that haven't had as much success as the Islanders in recent history.

Well there's our differences right there. In my book sport is not a brainless, mindless pursuit but it's not chess either. Sport is about instincts, being in the zone, staying loose and using your physical attributes, strength speed, reflexes, and skill to beat the opposing player. The British over thought their structure during the Revolutionary War much to their detriment while the colonists invented guerilla warfare. You're not in an armchair playing chess. Unfortunately this is what Lambert and even moreso Trotz had the team doing. To some degree it was successful but when it counted the most it failed. Instead of going with their instincts the players are overthinking the game too much to their own detriment.

I don't want this team playing pond hockey. There has to be some structure but the team needs to get back to what makes them athletes. Barzal, Pulock, Dobson, Nelson, Horvat- these players need to be utilizing the assets that make them special. They are not pawns on a chessboard. Let them be athletes.

You can say this about 31 teams in the league, including your more open teams. The Islanders didn't lose in the ECF or last year because they refused to open the game up, they lost because they weren't as good. Opening the game up likely would've led to a quicker exit.

St. Louis is running a "system" you'd like in Montreal if you want to see what that is like.

 

[WangMustGo]

Well, 8 or 9M+ for good players just doesn’t work.

That falls on Lou's shoulders. Same can be said for Lee, Pageau, Cizikas, Clutterbuck. You give every player a 1-2 million more and 2-3 years too long and it becomes a very big issue over time.

 

[MJF]

Anyone think its depressing how fast Vegas and Tampa develops players to replace holes, yet the islanders can't find a replacement at all for anything from their minor leagues?

Find a disgruntled star like Eichel. He was the difference maker.