GDT: GDT #5 Colorado Avalanche vs New York Islanders | October 24th | 8 PM | F/7-4 L

PK Cronin

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Feb 11, 2013
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Hard thing to do though, especially with defensemen. Always difficult to have patience yet also to know when to cut bait. In retrospect you're right, of course...
Absolutely difficult to do but the GMs have way more information than we do. The issue I've had is that we've needed [x] for a long time and seem to refuse the price to get it, so we just hope our internal solutions work and they never do. The longer that goes on the older you get and the further from contention you get.

I'm not advocating for trading guys like Beauvillier who had good playoffs or solid seasons at times either. I'm specifically talking about these hyped up prospects that haven't done jack shit in the NHL yet.
 
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Osakahaus

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What will genuinely happen if they beat Ottawa and Columbus? Or what if they go 1-1?
Then "we're back".

Show consistency. I am just tired of this team trying to be something they aren't. I dont expect the stanley cup I just expect the team to play structurally sound hockey.
 
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Rehabguy

In ROY I trust
Oct 2, 2011
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Cool, in a no defense system where the team would run and gun almost a decade ago he was noticeable every shift. You think he just reverts to being that player if things are opened up again? When he was doing that he had a lot of issues, the points were masking issues. Trotz fixed a lot of those issues but the one glaring one remains, he's not able to penetrate the defense on his own. I mentioned in the other thread that the NHL has caught up to players like him, there are more shifty players like Barzal than ever before. His possession games means almost nothing if he can't score or help set anyone up. Opening things up will result in more goals against and the team being less competitive on a nightly basis, but it'll give you those highlight reel 2 on 1 goals you're looking for.
I'm not saying adapt a no defense system. The Avs, Devils, Buffalo, Bolts don't play a no defense system but they do follow the adage the best defense is a good offense. I've said this so many times before the Trotz/Lambert system believes you can win a game simply by sitting back on a one goal lead. Don't take any unnecessary risks, collapse back on your goalie, and keep the shots to the perimeter. The system dares the other teams to take as many shots as you can at our goaltender because theoretically the shots are coming from the perimeter. Under Trotz we relied on this system good enough to beat the lesser teams just to get into the playoffs but once into the playoffs and we faced the more offensively gifted clubs this system was unreliable and we lost all our series to the more offensively gifted teams. Cooper recognized this flaw in Trotz system and he told his players in both series just keep attacking and minimize the mistakes and the Islanders won't launch a counter attack. It's not in their game plan. They only wait for you to make a mistake before they go on the offense. They only try to create offense on turnovers and not their talent. It was like a shooting gallery. The same thing happened last year. The Islanders sat back on a one goal lead collapsing in front of the goaltender trying to keep the shots to the perimeter and Carolina kept on plugging away while the Isles sat on a one goal lead and eventually were overwhelmed by a gifted offense. As Barzal lamented after the series, "You can't just sit back with a one goal lead".

The same exact scenario predictably happened last night. The Isles had a 3-2 lead and sat on it. What happened? On one play the team tried to hustle back to box out the high scoring areas in front of Sorokin, one player missed his assignment and the other team scored from a prime scoring area with Sorokin totally screened. Against a gifted team like the Avs you are just inviting trouble if you encourage them to shoot even if it is somewhat from the perimeter. Following that goal the Isles got flustered and immediately allowed another goal not able to regroup after that mistake. This the SAME story line we've been watching the past 5 years. The system is broke. It's too conservative. Takes no chances. Does not allow gifted players to show case their skills because it is risk averse. It is a system designed to play "not to lose" rather than to play "to win" such as the system the AVS, Bolts, Devils, Buffalo, and Detroit are now playing. The trap is dead, the NHL has enacted new rules that allow gifted players to enter the zone relatively unscathed. You can't sit back and allow your goaltender to be pelted with 40-50 shots against night after night- not with all these talented players entering the league.

The Isles need to reconfigure their system to a run and gun system once again and rely on their tall strong defenseman and elite goaltending to hold down the fort defensively just like every other team is doing in the league. The Isles have some offensive talent on this team but the system is one based on low scoring and taking minimal chances. I don't know if the Isles recent losses was a sign that they are opening up the game a little and Lambert is adopting a hybrid system where he has one foot on the dock and the other foot on the boat- a bad place to be. Either adopt Trotz system 100% or completely revamp it. You can't have it both ways because as the last few games have shown the results will be ugly. I think Lou and the entire coaching staff need to go. I thank Lou and Trotz/Lambert for the couple of good seasons, but lets face it guys- this is not working.

As for Barzal, it is clear to me that he attacked the net and did not play as a perimeter a game as people here are suggesting. Sure he did do the round the world skating much more his rookie year than he does now but that is what I expect him to do. No sane person should expect other wise with the skill set this guy brings. He skates around the offensive zone until he finds the player in a prime scoring position and takes the assist. I don't care who scores the goals so long as there are goals being scored and we only had one season to watch Barzal do his magic before Trotz came along and shut it all down. Watch his rookie season highlights and you can clearly see he was attacking the net much more than he does now because his game wasn't shackled. People like to criticize his game because they focus only on the FEW mistakes he made but ignore the fact that he was the only Islander on the ice making things happen on his way to the Calder. He was a puck hog with phenomenal puck possession time. He's going to make some mistakes folks but let's not harp on them. This is the way HE SHOULD be playing the game. Under Trotz and Lambert he's a shell of his former self. It's sad. It really is.

 

WangMustGo

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Mar 31, 2008
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Long Island
Yep. It's part of what makes me curious to see what Horvat does honestly. He's shown a willingness to try and beat guys 1 on 1 and that's one way to create more opportunities to score. Most of our players just curl back if it's a 2 on 2 and don't even attempt to make a play. The guys you mentioned are always looking for ways to turn those situations into better situations and we need more willingness to do that from the team.

Horvat and Barzal may try to do it, and may even be successful once in a blue moon, but those aforementioned guys do it on a nightly basis. The isles have a good amount of depth, veteran leadership, and grit, but the lack of top end talent will keep them from being a legitimate cup contender. Sure Sorokin may play like peak Hasek and carry them deep into the playoffs once or twice, but its hard to envision them beating these loaded teams over a 7 game series.
 

Doshell Propivo

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Dec 5, 2005
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Then "we're back".

Show consistency. I am just tired of this team trying to be something they aren't. I dont expect the stanley cup I just expect the team to play structurally sound hockey.
I don't think they're trying to be something they aren't. They are what they are. Not a top tier team but should make the playoffs.
 

Doshell Propivo

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Dec 5, 2005
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The system dares the other teams to take as many shots as you can at our goaltender because theoretically the shots are coming from the perimeter. Under Trotz we relied on this system good enough to beat the lesser teams just to get into the playoffs but once into the playoffs and we faced the more offensively gifted clubs this system was unreliable and we lost all our series to the more offensively gifted teams.
Umm. Wut? We won 6 playoff rounds in Trotz's first three seasons. Including beating Washington, Pittsburgh (twice) and Boston.

If anything, Trotz's system was waaaaay more reliable in the playoffs than the regular season.

This is truly amazing. We went from run and gun under Weight (puke) and Snow (even more puke), worst defensive team in the history of the NHL, then turn it around and become the best team defensive team THE NEXT season under Trotz/Lou (and have the most success in the last 3 decades). But somehow Trotz's system sucks and we need to go back to run an gun. My god.

The Isles need to reconfigure their system to a run and gun system once again
JFC...
 

Rehabguy

In ROY I trust
Oct 2, 2011
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Umm. Wut? We won 6 playoff rounds in Trotz's first three seasons. Including beating Washington, Pittsburgh (twice) and Boston.
And we lost when it counted the most to teams that were offensive minded. Just like the last 3 teams we faced in the last 3 games.

The team playing in front of Barzal is much more experienced than the team Doug Weight coached. They would do fine in a run and gun system.

You like these results?

Do you remember how bad the AVS, Devils, Buffalo were just a few seasons ago but they stuck to their run and gun systems and look where they are now. Would you care to bring that up? It takes time to adopt to a new system. Under Lambert they've had enough time to adapt but the place they are going is down not up.

Are people STILL defending Lambert? (JFC)
 
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Doshell Propivo

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Dec 5, 2005
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And we lost when it counted the most to teams that were offensive minded. Just like the last 3 teams we faced in the last 3 games.
To the Stanley Cup champions (taking them to 7 games) where the Islanders were clear underdogs. You think we would have defeated TB using Weight's run and gun style? BWAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

PK Cronin

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Feb 11, 2013
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I'm not saying adapt a no defense system. The Avs, Devils, Buffalo, Bolts don't play a no defense system but they do follow the adage the best defense is a good offense. I've said this so many times before the Trotz/Lambert system believes you can win a game simply by sitting back on a one goal lead. Don't take any unnecessary risks, collapse back on your goalie, and keep the shots to the perimeter. The system dares the other teams to take as many shots as you can at our goaltender because theoretically the shots are coming from the perimeter. Under Trotz we relied on this system good enough to beat the lesser teams just to get into the playoffs but once into the playoffs and we faced the more offensively gifted clubs this system was unreliable and we lost all our series to the more offensively gifted teams. Cooper recognized this flaw in Trotz system and he told his players in both series just keep attacking and minimize the mistakes and the Islanders won't launch a counter attack. It's not in their game plan. They only wait for you to make a mistake before they go on the offense. They only try to create offense on turnovers and not their talent. It was like a shooting gallery. The same thing happened last year. The Islanders sat back on a one goal lead collapsing in front of the goaltender trying to keep the shots to the perimeter and Carolina kept on plugging away while the Isles sat on a one goal lead and eventually were overwhelmed by a gifted offense. As Barzal lamented after the series, "You can't just sit back with a one goal lead".
[/QUOTE]

This isn't really accurate at all and is a really poor description of the system that was implemented.

The Islanders were the lower seeded teams in the playoffs under Trotz a bunch of times were able to beat the better teams using the system. When you're one of the lowest ranked offenses in the league every playoff team is more offensively gifted than you and the Islanders didn't lose because they were outgunned. They played those series incredibly tight and actually lost the second one to Tampa Bay because of a short handed goal which has absolutely nothing to do with what you're referring to. The offensively gifted Tampa Bay Lightning won because of a shorthanded goal, not because of their high octane offense.

You don't like the defensive system, that's fine, but you're not really giving a breakdown of what you'd do differently other than saying "generate more offense" which isn't really a strategy. It also doesn't turn our players into offensive dynamos because they are playing with less structure.

The same exact scenario predictably happened last night. The Isles had a 3-2 lead and sat on it. What happened? On one play the team tried to hustle back to box out the high scoring areas in front of Sorokin, one player missed his assignment and the other team scored from a prime scoring area with Sorokin totally screened. Against a gifted team like the Avs you are just inviting trouble if you encourage them to shoot even if it is somewhat from the perimeter. Following that goal the Isles got flustered and immediately allowed another goal not able to regroup after that mistake. This the SAME story line we've been watching the past 5 years. The system is broke. It's too conservative. Takes no chances. Does not allow gifted players to show case their skills because it is risk averse. It is a system designed to play "not to lose" rather than to play "to win" such as the system the AVS, Bolts, Devils, Buffalo, and Detroit are now playing. The trap is dead, the NHL has enacted new rules that allow gifted players to enter the zone relatively unscathed. You can't sit back and allow your goaltender to be pelted with 40-50 shots against night after night- not with all these talented players entering the league.

Again, your description is off. They sat on the 3-2 lead? They were being hemmed in all night long and were lucky to be in that scenario. What you're describing as "sitting on it" is just them getting outplayed by a better team.

You think that the Islanders stood a better chance going up against that Avalanche team if they focused less on structure and took more chances?

What system do you want them to actually play? Every team in the NHL "traps" in the neutral zone FYI.


The Isles need to reconfigure their system to a run and gun system once again and rely on their tall strong defenseman and elite goaltending to hold down the fort defensively just like every other team is doing in the league. The Isles have some offensive talent on this team but the system is one based on low scoring and taking minimal chances. I don't know if the Isles recent losses was a sign that they are opening up the game a little and Lambert is adopting a hybrid system where he has one foot on the dock and the other foot on the boat- a bad place to be. Either adopt Trotz system 100% or completely revamp it. You can't have it both ways because as the last few games have shown the results will be ugly. I think Lou and the entire coaching staff need to go. I thank Lou and Trotz/Lambert for the couple of good seasons, but lets face it guys- this is not working.

Lambert tried to open things up last year and the Islanders had their shit pushed in until they tightened back up again. The Islanders don't have the pieces you seem to think they do. Which defensemen are going to play like Makar, Sergachev, Hedman, Heiskenan, Dahlin, Karlsson? They simply don't have those types of players and opening things up is going to expose them more than help them.

As for Barzal, it is clear to me that he attacked the net and did not play as a perimeter a game as people here are suggesting. Sure he did do the round the world skating much more his rookie year than he does now but that is what I expect him to do. No sane person should expect other wise with the skill set this guy brings. He skates around the offensive zone until he finds the player in a prime scoring position and takes the assist. I don't care who scores the goals so long as there are goals being scored and we only had one season to watch Barzal do his magic before Trotz came along and shut it all down. Watch his rookie season highlights and you can clearly see he was attacking the net much more than he does now because his game wasn't shackled. People like to criticize his game because they focus only on the FEW mistakes he made but ignore the fact that he was the only Islander on the ice making things happen on his way to the Calder. He was a puck hog with phenomenal puck possession time. He's going to make some mistakes folks but let's not harp on them. This is the way HE SHOULD be playing the game. Under Trotz and Lambert he's a shell of his former self. It's sad. It really is.



You think it's good to skate around the perimeter of the offensive zone for 30 seconds at a time?! There's nothing for his teammates to do when he's doing that, it creates confusion and a disorganization. It forces the other guys to stand still way more because there is less predictability in the game so you have no idea where the holes/lanes are going to open.

I skipped through the highlights, it's tons of perimeter play and nothing close to what we're seeing guys like Hughes do. Lots of opportunities were off the rush, which isn't happening anymore. Part of that is because we don't have defensemen who can jump up in the play.

To think that's the way the game should be played is insanity. It's not good hockey to hold the puck for 30 seconds at a time and just skate around the offensive zone. There's a reason that team was losing with a more talented roster (and more points for Barzal) than some of the subsequent teams.
 

Rehabguy

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Oct 2, 2011
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To the Stanley Cup champions (taking them to 7 games) where the Islanders were clear underdogs. You think we would have defeated TB using Weight's run and gun style? BWAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is just nonsense. No one is saying to use Doug Weight's style. Are the AVS, Devils, Buffalo using Weight's run and gun style?
 

Osakahaus

Chillin' on Fuji
May 28, 2021
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"Scott Mayfield skated on his own today, per Lane Lambert. No timetable for his return from lower body injury."
Please god just come back this shouldn't take so long.
 
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Rehabguy

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TO Cronin

Playing an offensive minded system does NOT mean playing with less structure.

Also judging by the style one player plays the game is not a fair judgment of a system of play. No one is arguing that each individual player should be skating around like Wayne Gretzky.

The system Lambert and Trotz play is too conservative and it is absolutely based around sitting on small leads.

What do suggest the Islanders do?
 
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PK Cronin

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Feb 11, 2013
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And we lost when it counted the most to teams that were offensive minded. Just like the last 3 teams we faced in the last 3 games.

The team playing in front of Barzal is much more experienced than the team Doug Weight coached. They would do fine in a run and gun system.

You like these results?

Do you remember how bad the AVS, Devils, Buffalo were just a few seasons ago but they stuck to their run and gun systems and look where they are now. Would you care to bring that up? It takes time to adopt to a new system. Under Lambert they've had enough time to adapt but the place they are going is down not up.

Are people STILL defending Lambert? (JFC)

I hate to break it to you but Tampa Bay isn't a run and gun team. They have (had) the best goaltender in the world and the best defenseman in the world as well. Do I want to be the Devils or Buffalo? Meh. The Devils have a lot of talent but are still struggling to keep the puck out of their net and it cost them in the playoffs. Buffalo hasn't done anything of note so I'm not sure why you're bringing them up like they're some sort of prize.

Toronto is a highly successful regular season team that runs and guns and has had less success than the Islanders. They also had to adjust their play to become more defensive last season in order to win a round because running and gunning doesn't really work.
 

PK Cronin

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Feb 11, 2013
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TO Cronin

Playing an offensive minded system does NOT mean playing with less structure.

You've yet to provide me with any information about what that system or structure is. You just keep saying more offense or run and gun. Run and gun does absolutely mean less structure.
 
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Throttle

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Sep 22, 2020
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I'm not saying adapt a no defense system. The Avs, Devils, Buffalo, Bolts don't play a no defense system but they do follow the adage the best defense is a good offense. I've said this so many times before the Trotz/Lambert system believes you can win a game simply by sitting back on a one goal lead. Don't take any unnecessary risks, collapse back on your goalie, and keep the shots to the perimeter. The system dares the other teams to take as many shots as you can at our goaltender because theoretically the shots are coming from the perimeter. Under Trotz we relied on this system good enough to beat the lesser teams just to get into the playoffs but once into the playoffs and we faced the more offensively gifted clubs this system was unreliable and we lost all our series to the more offensively gifted teams. Cooper recognized this flaw in Trotz system and he told his players in both series just keep attacking and minimize the mistakes and the Islanders won't launch a counter attack. It's not in their game plan. They only wait for you to make a mistake before they go on the offense. They only try to create offense on turnovers and not their talent. It was like a shooting gallery. The same thing happened last year. The Islanders sat back on a one goal lead collapsing in front of the goaltender trying to keep the shots to the perimeter and Carolina kept on plugging away while the Isles sat on a one goal lead and eventually were overwhelmed by a gifted offense. As Barzal lamented after the series, "You can't just sit back with a one goal lead".

The same exact scenario predictably happened last night. The Isles had a 3-2 lead and sat on it. What happened? On one play the team tried to hustle back to box out the high scoring areas in front of Sorokin, one player missed his assignment and the other team scored from a prime scoring area with Sorokin totally screened. Against a gifted team like the Avs you are just inviting trouble if you encourage them to shoot even if it is somewhat from the perimeter. Following that goal the Isles got flustered and immediately allowed another goal not able to regroup after that mistake. This the SAME story line we've been watching the past 5 years. The system is broke. It's too conservative. Takes no chances. Does not allow gifted players to show case their skills because it is risk averse. It is a system designed to play "not to lose" rather than to play "to win" such as the system the AVS, Bolts, Devils, Buffalo, and Detroit are now playing. The trap is dead, the NHL has enacted new rules that allow gifted players to enter the zone relatively unscathed. You can't sit back and allow your goaltender to be pelted with 40-50 shots against night after night- not with all these talented players entering the league.

The Isles need to reconfigure their system to a run and gun system once again and rely on their tall strong defenseman and elite goaltending to hold down the fort defensively just like every other team is doing in the league. The Isles have some offensive talent on this team but the system is one based on low scoring and taking minimal chances. I don't know if the Isles recent losses was a sign that they are opening up the game a little and Lambert is adopting a hybrid system where he has one foot on the dock and the other foot on the boat- a bad place to be. Either adopt Trotz system 100% or completely revamp it. You can't have it both ways because as the last few games have shown the results will be ugly. I think Lou and the entire coaching staff need to go. I thank Lou and Trotz/Lambert for the couple of good seasons, but lets face it guys- this is not working.

As for Barzal, it is clear to me that he attacked the net and did not play as a perimeter a game as people here are suggesting. Sure he did do the round the world skating much more his rookie year than he does now but that is what I expect him to do. No sane person should expect other wise with the skill set this guy brings. He skates around the offensive zone until he finds the player in a prime scoring position and takes the assist. I don't care who scores the goals so long as there are goals being scored and we only had one season to watch Barzal do his magic before Trotz came along and shut it all down. Watch his rookie season highlights and you can clearly see he was attacking the net much more than he does now because his game wasn't shackled. People like to criticize his game because they focus only on the FEW mistakes he made but ignore the fact that he was the only Islander on the ice making things happen on his way to the Calder. He was a puck hog with phenomenal puck possession time. He's going to make some mistakes folks but let's not harp on them. This is the way HE SHOULD be playing the game. Under Trotz and Lambert he's a shell of his former self. It's sad. It really is.


He’s 26 and on his 7th NHL season. The game has changed A LOT since his ROY.
 

Doshell Propivo

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Dec 5, 2005
13,276
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Do you remember how bad the AVS, Devils, Buffalo were just a few seasons ago but they stuck to their run and gun systems and look where they are now.
Buffalo hasn't made the playoffs in 13 years, hasn't won a playoff round in 17 years and currently sits dead last in their division. Losing to the lowly Islanders and their horrible coach this year.

That's where they are.

This is just nonsense. No one is saying to use Doug Weight's style. Are the AVS, Devils, Buffalo using Weight's run and gun style?
You keep using the term "run and gun." And pointing to the 17-18 season (Weight's last) as some sort of accomplishment to emulate.
 
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Doshell Propivo

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You've yet to provide me with any information about what that system or structure is. You just keep saying more offense or run and gun. Run and gun does absolutely mean less structure.
I think what he's trying to say is bring back Snow to fix this mess.
 

Rehabguy

In ROY I trust
Oct 2, 2011
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I hate to break it to you but Tampa Bay isn't a run and gun team. They have (had) the best goaltender in the world and the best defenseman in the world as well. Do I want to be the Devils or Buffalo? Meh. The Devils have a lot of talent but are still struggling to keep the puck out of their net and it cost them in the playoffs. Buffalo hasn't done anything of note so I'm not sure why you're bringing them up like they're some sort of prize.

Toronto is a highly successful regular season team that runs and guns and has had less success than the Islanders. They also had to adjust their play to become more defensive last season in order to win a round because running and gunning doesn't really work.
I hate to break it to you but we're not exactly a prize winning team either. I know TB is not a run and gun team.

Again, are you satisfied with the Isles game? Do they just keep doing what they are doing and lose year after year?

There comes a point where they have to say it's simply not working and they need to try something new.

You keep using the term "run and gun." And pointing to the 17-18 season (Weight's last) as some sort of accomplishment to emulate.
Who's doing that? Hate to break it to you but we just got our butts kicked by 3 teams playing a run and gun system.
 

Rehabguy

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Oct 2, 2011
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He’s 26 and on his 7th NHL season. The game has changed A LOT since his ROY.
He should be in his prime. The system the Islanders currently play does not take advantage of what our top player brings to the table.
 

Osakahaus

Chillin' on Fuji
May 28, 2021
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He should be in his prime. The system the Islanders currently play does not take advantage of what our top player brings to the table.
alright and neither does our defense. Team has to find a proper identity. Barzal can score all the points he wants, it ain't solving our defense thats swiss cheese.
 
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