GDT: GDT #5 Colorado Avalanche vs New York Islanders | October 24th | 8 PM | F/7-4 L

Osakahaus

Chillin' on Fuji
May 28, 2021
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Find a disgruntled star like Eichel. He was the difference maker.
Nobody wants to come to long island. Even with DeBrincat, we lose because he wasn't an islanders fan and he wants to be "closer to home".

Its the biggest thing that pisses me off about hockey: we can't get anyone major to come here except for undersung players. And the worst part is that the salary cap won't rise dramatically until 2027. Its going to be a very long, cold day in hell until the islanders win a marquee free agent.
 

MJF

Hope is not a strategy
Sep 6, 2003
27,530
20,321
NYC
t. I think structurally they actually need to play more east/west when breaking out of their own end rather than the north/south they've been trying to. Their passes are picked off because the defense isn't moving and their telegraphing their passes to slow/stationary forward
This is where I disagree. I think they don’t pass well because they can’t execute. Poor on fundamental skills, not because the defense is ‘t moving the puck out fast enough. If you spread them out more on a breakout the chances will go up that the pass is not on target. Just as I don’t expect these guys to be able to execute the home run pass to spring a skater, and as they have never been able to move the puck quick enough on the power play. Same thing for the lack of finishing ability of so many of our skaters. They don’t have that level of skill. Stone hands.
 

Osakahaus

Chillin' on Fuji
May 28, 2021
8,435
4,116
This is where I disagree. I think they don’t pass well because they can’t execute. Poor on fundamental skills, not because the defense is ‘t moving the puck out fast enough. If you spread them out more on a breakout the chances will go up that the pass is not on target. Just as I don’t expect these guys to be able to execute the home run pass to spring a skater, and as they have never been able to move the puck quick enough on the power play. Same thing for the lack of finishing ability of so many of our skaters. They don’t have that level of skill. Stone hands.
1698268399428.jpeg

Counterpoint: look at this crap from our veterans
 

Big L

Grandpa’s Cough Medicine is 180 Proof
Feb 7, 2013
12,367
6,697
CT
This is where I disagree. I think they don’t pass well because they can’t execute. Poor on fundamental skills, not because the defense is ‘t moving the puck out fast enough. If you spread them out more on a breakout the chances will go up that the pass is not on target. Just as I don’t expect these guys to be able to execute the home run pass to spring a skater, and as they have never been able to move the puck quick enough on the power play. Same thing for the lack of finishing ability of so many of our skaters. They don’t have that level of skill. Stone hands.
Maybe to add, or counter I dunno, I think most of the players are too deliberate. Thinking too much about where to pass and shoot. The power play is very well thought out and deliberate and the safest play. Executed poorly, but well thought out. Example- how often is a pass one-timed? More than likely the pass receiver accepts the puck, settles it down, then shoots or passes again. Takes too long. Need to be quicker and more instinctual instead of overthinking every little thing.
 

Rehabguy

In ROY I trust
Oct 2, 2011
5,141
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It is a slight system change, but it's certainly not opening up the game. Tortorella runs a 2-1-2 forecheck and nobody would confuse his systems for being open.

The issue with this conversation is that you're not providing anything but generic statements but you have a lot of opinions and thoughts about what should be done without getting any specifics. You want the players to just use their god given abilities and be more free-flowing out there. That's not a system, that's not a structure, that's not how successful teams win. It's very easy to sit here and say, "they need more offense, open it up!" It's another thing to pinpoint what exactly you'd do. You're free to say, "hey, they need more offense but I'm not sure how they can create that." I certainly don't have all the answers either but you need to have some starting point when making these assertions. You're also giving examples of teams who are having success with the type of offense you want to see that haven't had as much success as the Islanders in recent history.



You can say this about 31 teams in the league, including your more open teams. The Islanders didn't lose in the ECF or last year because they refused to open the game up, they lost because they weren't as good. Opening the game up likely would've led to a quicker exit.

St. Louis is running a "system" you'd like in Montreal if you want to see what that is like.
Constructing an entirely new offensive system wasn't the point of my posts but pointing to the fact that it is needed was the point and we do have the players to do this. It's all about creating chances. It doesn't mean pond hockey. It doesn't mean that all 4 offensive lines need to deploy the same offensive strategy. Some of the lesser skilled lines can dump and chase or cycle the puck more in the offensive zone. Our 4th line can continue to aggressively forecheck- that's a game they are still very well suited for. But for our skilled lines I would like to see them cheat more. Create those odd man rushes the other way. You can have a four line rush with one of our more more mobile and offensively minded defenseman actually leading the rush. This is what Dobson for example should be doing. This is what Pulock and Aho should be doing. We need to see more 2-3 man rushes in triangular formation with Barzal handing off drop passes as he often did with Eberle. Not all the lines can play this way but certainly Horvat can play in such a system.

The team needs to see more 3 man rushes which be all 3 forwards or 2 forwards and a mobilie defenseman joining the rush or leading the rush. This is what team lacks but it does have the players who can do this. Dobson is clearly one of those players and I think Puloch and Aho would be effective at doing this as well. I want to see our skaters skate. Engvall and Nelson have speed. They should use it. Barzal and Horvat can skate they need to CREATE chances with their skating not just create chances with a heavy 2 player forecheck trying to get the opposing D to cough up the puck and everyone else sitting back as they do now. It's boring to watch and it's wasting the talents of our gifted forwards.

This team should NOT be one of the lowest scoring teams in the league year after year. The roster is not anywhere THAT bad. That was illusion created by Trotz system of play. You say the league has caught up to Barzal. I don't think so. You can't beat what you don't have. You can't beat speed and skill. The Avs and Jersey taught us that. Most players can't keep up with Barzal when he's allowed to do what he can do. The teams have caught up to our system of play and found all chinks in the armor.

Here's the thing: We have possibly the best goaltender in the game today and we have one of the best skaters in the league who can lead the rush the other way. Why are so worried about defense and creating a wall around Sorokin? Why not use those players to create offense the other way and let Sorokin be Sorokin. This is absolutely the dumbest thing I've ever seen. We don't need to worry about the fort as much as they are doing when they have Ilya guarding the door. They should be focused on creating offense. Enough of this boring system. Get rid of it.
 
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MarsTBOW

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Jun 30, 2014
3,402
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Most fans didn’t want Mayfield resigned as he was deemed expendable, yet, here we are again…clamoring for him (and Toews, and Leddy and Eberle)

I remember a lot of Fans asking for an upgrade on Him.
If they could not upgrade, then dumping him would have been Foolish...
I have no problem with Mayfield as long as he does not pull Stupid $Hit taking penalties.
The Problem with us now (I'm sure you know) is we have TWO AHL D-Men getting regular minutes with Mayfield out....
 

BrockLobster

Registered User
Feb 11, 2013
9,940
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Long Beach, NY
Nobody wants to come to long island. Even with DeBrincat, we lose because he wasn't an islanders fan and he wants to be "closer to home".

Its the biggest thing that pisses me off about hockey: we can't get anyone major to come here except for undersung players. And the worst part is that the salary cap won't rise dramatically until 2027. Its going to be a very long, cold day in hell until the islanders win a marquee free agent.

Cap is going up 4.5 m next year
 

Osakahaus

Chillin' on Fuji
May 28, 2021
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Cap is going up 4.5 m next year
yeah and we won't get anyone new, we'll do the same turning the wheels dance and never get that game changing talent.

We need that on defense and offense. We need youth. If we god forbid finish bottom 5, its the best thing that could happen to us.
 

LeapOnOver

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Jan 23, 2011
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Colorado is unbelievable. The difference between us and a Colorado, New Jersey, or a Tampa Bay is that we dont have any true gamebreakers. We saw it with Hughes, we saw it with Makar and Mackinnon last night, and we saw it several times in the playoffs against Tampa. We have plenty of good players, but noone that ks a true game breaker. Its a problem that has no solution in sight. Horvat, Barzal, and Nelson are all good players, but none of them are elite players.
Sorokin is a gamebreaker, but the rest i agree on.
 

LeapOnOver

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Hard thing to do though, especially with defensemen. Always difficult to have patience yet also to know when to cut bait. In retrospect you're right, of course...
Yeah, PK is definitely inching into Monday morning QB territory.

I believe I mentioned this before but the stats tell a different story. Pulock's shots hit their target at a slightly better than average rate (among NHL defenseman). It is called "Thru %."


What will genuinely happen if they beat Ottawa and Columbus? Or what if they go 1-1?
Depends on the score. If it's not a 10-0 drubbing in the one we win, it is genuinely over o_O
 

doublechili

For all intensive purposes, your nuts
Apr 11, 2006
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The bigger fear that we should have is that Sorokin's contract kicks in next season. Lamoriello is really managing like this team like he did with the Devils JFC
Sorokin's contract is fine, IMO. He's among the few best at his position in the league. But yeah, it will eat up some space. If Lou lets Martin and Clutter walk, their salaries will make up for most of Sorokin's increase.
 
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Osakahaus

Chillin' on Fuji
May 28, 2021
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Sorokin's contract is fine, IMO. He's among the few best at his position in the league. But yeah, it will eat up some space. If Lou lets Martin and Clutter walk, their salaries will make up for most of Sorokin's increase.
makes me wish the NHL allowed for contract restructures. Too bad it won't happen.

But seriously the islanders need to keep their 1st this season. We can't lose another 1st rounder. right here? I feel worried with our future if we don't sell off should this season suck.
1698289176715.png
 

BelovedIsles

Registered User
Oct 22, 2005
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makes me wish the NHL allowed for contract restructures. Too bad it won't happen.

But seriously the islanders need to keep their 1st this season. We can't lose another 1st rounder. right here? I feel worried with our future if we don't sell off should this season suck.View attachment 758024
I was thinking about this idea the other day. It goes both ways though, if an organization can request a restructure, can't a player? E.g. said player is outproducing their contract.
 
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BelovedIsles

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Oct 22, 2005
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To simplify pages of informed rhetoric and conjecture. This team, nor coach, isn't good enough to be playoff contenders. It's management, skill, coaching, systems, work ethic, age, all of those factors compound each other to create the team we see.
 

PK Cronin

Bailey Fan Club Prez
Feb 11, 2013
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This is where I disagree. I think they don’t pass well because they can’t execute. Poor on fundamental skills, not because the defense is ‘t moving the puck out fast enough. If you spread them out more on a breakout the chances will go up that the pass is not on target. Just as I don’t expect these guys to be able to execute the home run pass to spring a skater, and as they have never been able to move the puck quick enough on the power play. Same thing for the lack of finishing ability of so many of our skaters. They don’t have that level of skill. Stone hands.

I don't think they're mutually exclusive.

Constructing an entirely new offensive system wasn't the point of my posts but pointing to the fact that it is needed was the point and we do have the players to do this. It's all about creating chances. It doesn't mean pond hockey. It doesn't mean that all 4 offensive lines need to deploy the same offensive strategy. Some of the lesser skilled lines can dump and chase or cycle the puck more in the offensive zone. Our 4th line can continue to aggressively forecheck- that's a game they are still very well suited for. But for our skilled lines I would like to see them cheat more. Create those odd man rushes the other way. You can have a four line rush with one of our more more mobile and offensively minded defenseman actually leading the rush. This is what Dobson for example should be doing. This is what Pulock and Aho should be doing. We need to see more 2-3 man rushes in triangular formation with Barzal handing off drop passes as he often did with Eberle. Not all the lines can play this way but certainly Horvat can play in such a system.

The team needs to see more 3 man rushes which be all 3 forwards or 2 forwards and a mobilie defenseman joining the rush or leading the rush. This is what team lacks but it does have the players who can do this. Dobson is clearly one of those players and I think Puloch and Aho would be effective at doing this as well. I want to see our skaters skate. Engvall and Nelson have speed. They should use it. Barzal and Horvat can skate they need to CREATE chances with their skating not just create chances with a heavy 2 player forecheck trying to get the opposing D to cough up the puck and everyone else sitting back as they do now. It's boring to watch and it's wasting the talents of our gifted forwards.

This team should NOT be one of the lowest scoring teams in the league year after year. The roster is not anywhere THAT bad. That was illusion created by Trotz system of play. You say the league has caught up to Barzal. I don't think so. You can't beat what you don't have. You can't beat speed and skill. The Avs and Jersey taught us that. Most players can't keep up with Barzal when he's allowed to do what he can do. The teams have caught up to our system of play and found all chinks in the armor.

I think you're creating scenarios in your head that you'd like to see play out but these things aren't actually systems. Nothing wrong with that but it's not something that is concrete/implementable.

Here's the thing: We have possibly the best goaltender in the game today and we have one of the best skaters in the league who can lead the rush the other way. Why are so worried about defense and creating a wall around Sorokin? Why not use those players to create offense the other way and let Sorokin be Sorokin. This is absolutely the dumbest thing I've ever seen. We don't need to worry about the fort as much as they are doing when they have Ilya guarding the door. They should be focused on creating offense. Enough of this boring system. Get rid of it.

They just let up 5 goals against Colorado playing in the style you don't like because it's too conservative, what do you think happens when Colorado is getting more chances? Sorokin played incredibly well that game too.

Yeah, PK is definitely inching into Monday morning QB territory.

I don't think so because I acknowledge we don't have the same information about these players as management does and I'd have been willing to part with most of them at the time (I think). There's an element of it for sure. It's also similar to the fans who say "we're not good enough to win the cup" and use that as a cudgel in debates/conversations. The odds are that 31 teams aren't good enough to win the cup so it's not exactly a hard prediction to make. Most prospects don't live up to the potential fans assign to them so I'm more okay with moving them and draft picks for established players.

You need to find diamonds here and there to supplement the roster but the reluctance to trade certain pieces because of what they might become when there's a need now is frustrating for me.

Completely made up example where the timeline might not work out but demonstrates the point I'm making (I think): The team needed a winger during their ECF trips and Wahlstrom was supposed to be that guy because of his shot. Promising young winger with some value and upside with fans proposing he'll easily be a 30 goal guy. Instead of trading Wahlstrom for a known commodity that would help in the short term he was held onto because of what he might become in the future. Same thing with Dobson. We needed a power play QB and high offensive defenseman but we couldn't trade the promising Dobson for an established veteran because of Dobson's upside. The first window closed and now we're sitting here hoping that these players will progress enough to even get us back to that point, let alone get us over the hump.

I'm not upset when a Verhaeghe pops off 8 years after the Islanders had him but some people want to keep all of the prospects because they're afraid of that happening.
 
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Rehabguy

In ROY I trust
Oct 2, 2011
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I think you're creating scenarios in your head that you'd like to see play out but these things aren't actually systems.

They just let up 5 goals against Colorado playing in the style you don't like because it's too conservative, what do you think happens when Colorado is getting more chances? Sorokin played incredibly well that game too.
Creating a full-fledged offensive system at the NHL is a full time job and takes planning and and an understanding of the roster you have in front of you. This is beyond your and mine pay grade. What I offered you are indeed scenarios that are elements of an offensive minded system a system that appears totally foreign to Lambert but other teams have done it with success through the years. We need a new coach with the experience to implement such a system

As for those 5 goals against Colorado. As I said that is the result of team that has figured out Lambert's predictable system of sitting back and trying to box out the high scoring areas but allowing the opposing team to get a ton of shots on net. Don't tell me that this is not an element of Trotz/Lambert's system. We all know the Islanders have had some the highest shots against in the league the past 5 years. Eventually teams will catch on and know that the team poses no offensive threat especially when they are focused on holding to a one goal lead and the game becomes a shooting gallery. Against a high scoring team like Colorado or the Devils you are just asking for trouble if you let them get that many shots on net. This is what I mean when I say the Islanders currently play a game not to lose rather than one that plays to win by building bigger leads. The best teams in the league play "to win". This is the primary reason we lost all those series against Tampa Bay and more recently against Carolina. The Isles are taught to hang on for dear life with a one goal lead rather than building on the lead. The best defense is a good offense. Spend more time with MORE players deeper in the offensive zone and keep the shots goal to a minimum and keep the opposing team hemmed into their own D zone.

BTW Sorokin is most effective when he can see the puck. All the teams are catching on to the idea that to beat Sorokin you have to have the shots screened. Having all those players collapsing in front of the net is just creates a bigger screen in front of Sorokin. He needs to see the puck in order to stop it. A more traditional offensive minded system will lessen the crowding in front of the net.

In regards to how we ended up to where this team is today. Think about this. The Islanders ended up with a conservative, trap based, low scoring system because Lou brought in Trotz the moment he became GM. He didn't build a roster that was necessarily optimized for this system of play he just took the team he had in front of him and basically told the team, "hey guys we're going to totally change the way you guys play the game no questions asked". It's not like this team was built from the ground up to play the current system of play they were essentially forced to because this is the only system that Trotz deploys and everyone knew that. So it didn't matter that you were Matthew Barzal, Pulock, Nelson, Dobson etc... You play the game the way we want you to play it. The problem with that approach is that it could amount to nothing more than trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and in regards to some of our more gifted skaters that's pretty much what is going on here. The players are treated like pawns on a chessboard rather than allowing them to utilize their athleticism and talent drive the play. So players like Dobson, Wahlstrom, Barzal, (and before them Bailey) are playing the game in a way that goes against their natural instincts. I don't think this is the proper way to manage a team.
 

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