Olympics: GDT 13 feb Finland vs Sweden

[Jugitsu]

I just don't agree with your assessment on players. Barkov is good, but I think Zibanejad is close to him. There isn't that much to separate them in terms of production and both are obviously great two way players. I think Aho is on the same level as both of them, but so is Pettersson, if you look at all seasons he has played besides this one. I actually think Pettersson is the most skillful forward from Sweden and Finland combined. Rantanen is great but he's not miles ahead of his own teammate in Landeskog.

And to say we don't match Laines firepower is disingenuous. Forsberg is by every metric a better offensive player than Laine right now, but I agree that Laine has better raw tools. But if you think Aho is much better than the streaky Pettersson, Forsberg has to be considered better than Laine. Same thing goes for Nylander really.

And I will say that depth matters way more than you think. Ovi and Malkin is rarely enough for the Russians to beat Canada or the US who have every line scoring at a high level. Team Europe made the Finals at the World Cup without real stars because they had scoring from everywhere. Would you take the Edmonton Oilers over the Calgary Flames because of a few good forwards? Would you take the Blackhawks over the Blues?

The comment that grinds my gears the most is the one about defencemen though. Considering his surroundings I think Dahlin has been as basically good as Hedman for lets say three months now and expect him to hit prime Hedman/Karlsson levels in 2026. Dahlin is the single player in the NHL you underrate the most. He is one of the best passers and puck movers in the world, already, and controls games for fun. I know that I am higher on Dahlin than most, but I would take him over every single player in the world over the next 10 years, besides McDavid. He's that good. To say we won't have superstar defencemen is just weird. Dahlin is better than Hedman at the same age. Adam Boqvist and Rasmus Sandin are just as talented as Klingberg/OEL. Edvinsson is one of the worlds best young non-NHL defencemen and a considered a way bigger talent than the likes of Ekholm, Klingberg, OEL, Lindholm, Brodin at the same age. He is nowhere near Dahlin but still a really, really high end prospect, and I can't see him not surpass Heiskanen. Lets look at 2000s born first round defencemen. Sweden have Rasmus Dahlin, Adam Boqvist, Rasmus Sandin, Nils Lundqvist, Phillip Broberg, Tobias Björnfot and Simon Edvinsson. No country in the world matches that. Our 2000s born defensive core is arguably better than anyone we have ever had. I can't see any defencemen not named Heiskanen crack a Swedish lineup for a long time considering many of our current best on best defencemen aren't that old.

Sorry to nitpick your long post but I wonder where this weird narrative that Zibanejad is a good, or even great 2-way center comes from. Can you elaborate?

 

[Marioesque]

I doubt you watch him at all if that's your take. Possibly the first few games of the season when he was coming back from injury he was off. If those are the games you watch, let me confirm that hintz is a far far better player than those games.

In any case, it's clear a best on best game or even a series between Finland and Sweden could go either way.it would be a very very competitive series.

Yeah I have him in fantasy pool and he's the picture of consistency, goal and assust basically every game. Been watching stars games and he's noticeable and constantly dangerous.

 

[Nate070]

Maybe I only catch his bad games but I do not think Hintz is particularly skillful, creative or dynamic. Strangely good stats, but there are swedes in competition for similar roles who match that. Hintz just doesn’t pass the eye test but maybe I am wrong and just don’t see his good games

Open your eyes kiddo

 

[AB13]

I'm talking today and based on all metrics and you talk a lot about whatabouts or whatifs. You can't even talk about EP in a same sentence with Barkov or Aho, i'm sorry about it. Zibanejad is close to Aho but gap to Barkov is quite big. We are talking about top-5 center here, EP is not even top-20 (and i like him)

Swedish d-man production is extremely good, i'd argue that it's the best in the world. SHL and Swedish leagues just pumps quality defenders every single year. But are there future Hedmans? Legit superstars? Currently if we don't count Hedman, there is zero. But there doesn't have to be, quality is very good anyways. There might be future Hedman superstars, but we can't say for certain.

We can talk about future superstars and hope and wish, but it's not necessarily the outcome. It's pretty naive to think that Holtz and Eklund are becoming superstars by default, since for the last 10 drafts you have 1 superstar forward and that's Zibanejad. I could say that Kemell and Lambert will be superstars, but how can i know. They might be busts too, time will tell.

I disagree with your assessment of the forwards, that's all I can say. Not really about how you rank them individually, but about how much it matters to have many different offensive weapons all lines in best on best international tournaments. Canada never uses a pure defensive 3rd and 4th line who don't get much ice time because they have the depth to have skill everywhere. The only reason traditional NHL bottom 6s lack skill is the salary cap. Still, teams with 4 scoring lines are usually the ones who make runs in the playoffs. There are many teams with more high end skill than the Blues, Islanders or Stars who have all made long runs recently.

And I think Dahlin is already almost on the same level as Hedman. So there is disagreement there. I don't just think he is a future Hedman, I think Dahlin is likely to peak higher. But we never know. And is Edvinsson not on track to reach superstar levels? Not Hedman levels, and of course he can bust, but most signs point to him being a future legit superstar.

Do I think Lambert is a future superstar? Quite likely.

 

[AB13]

Sorry to nitpick your long post but I wonder where this weird narrative that Zibanejad is a good, or even great 2-way center comes from. Can you elaborate?

He tends to do very well on the penalty kill and tracks back well. Has a good active defensive stick, sound positioning, good physical tools and a history of shutting down top players.

 

[karhukissa]

I disagree with your assessment of the forwards, that's all I can say. Not really about how you rank them individually, but about how much it matters to have many different offensive weapons all lines in best on best international tournaments. Canada never uses a pure defensive 3rd and 4th line who don't get much ice time because they have the depth to have skill everywhere. The only reason traditional NHL bottom 6s lack skill is the salary cap. Still, teams with 4 scoring lines are usually the ones who make runs in the playoffs. There are many teams with more high end skill than the Blues, Islanders or Stars who have all made long runs recently.

And I think Dahlin is already almost on the same level as Hedman. So there is disagreement there. I don't just think he is a future Hedman, I think Dahlin is likely to peak higher. But we never know. And is Edvinsson not on track to reach superstar levels? Not Hedman levels, and of course he can bust, but most signs point to him being a future legit superstar.

Do I think Lambert is a future superstar? Quite likely.

Yeah but Sweden or Finland are not Canada, unfortunately. You could argue what's more important to Canada, their top players or depth. Finland has more olympic hockey medals than Sweden during last 20 years, even though Finland's roster has always been worse on paper than Sweden. There's only Canada that's clear favourite against all other top teams, after that it's a coin toss.

Canada can put guys like Scheifele, Point, Huberdeau to bottom lines while Sweden has arguably good players like Arvidsson or Eriksson-Ek there but there's a massive difference.

So argument "I can't see Sweden losing to Finland" or vice versa is just nonsense.

 

[Nate070]

Swedes tried even after OT goal ask refs for turning the decision such clowns

That was so embarrasing

 

[Nate070]

Its funny how the moomins think they have won it all after a OT round robin win.

Soo sweeeeet victory.... Salty swede tears taste the best

 

[Zub]

Anyone know where i can watch the highlights? there is none on youtube.

 

[AB13]

Yeah but Sweden or Finland are not Canada, unfortunately. You could argue what's more important to Canada, their top players or depth. Finland has more olympic hockey medals than Sweden during last 20 years, even though Finland's roster has always been worse on paper than Sweden. There's only Canada that's clear favourite against all other top teams, after that it's a coin toss.

Canada might be a bad example. Lets use USA instead. USA did way better than Russia in 2010 and 2014, with less superstars but better depth scoring and better defencemen. The difference in star power between Finland and Sweden is arguable, I don’t think there is one, but if there is, it is still smaller than the difference between the USA and Russia teams mentioned. Russia had prime Datsyuk, prime Kolalchuk, Kovalchuk, prime Ovechkin and prime Malkin, but the USA were much better in both 2010 and 2014 thanks to more scorers and better defencemen.

Having scorers everywhere matters so much in international hockey. When the US left off depth scoring in 2016, in favor of traditional defensive NHL level bottom 6ers, because Tortorella is a weirdo, they failed miserably.

 

[karhukissa]

Canada might be a bad example. Lets use USA instead. USA did way better than Russia in 2010 and 2014, with less superstars but better depth scoring and better defencemen. The difference in star power between Finland and Sweden is arguable, I am not sure there is one, but if there is, it is still smaller than the difference between the USA and Russia teams mentioned. Russia had prime Datsyuk, prime Kolalchuk, Kovalchuk, prime Ovechkin and prime Malkin, but the USA were much better in both 2010 and 2014 thanks to more scorers and better defencemen.

If you can have also depth with superstars = perfect. Russia has great top end talent but depth quite mehh, correct.

But if we look at Sweden's bottom-6, there are no players that compare to USA or Canada bottom players. Those are good players, but not difference makers.

If Finland can put guys like Hintz, Lundell, Kapanen, Puljujärvi to bottom lines that makes them also a scoring threat. Not as good depth as Sweden, but it's not a big difference.

 

[Snowsii]

Canada might be a bad example. Lets use USA instead. USA did way better than Russia in 2010 and 2014, with less superstars but better depth scoring and better defencemen. The difference in star power between Finland and Sweden is arguable, I don’t think there is one, but if there is, it is still smaller than the difference between the USA and Russia teams mentioned. Russia had prime Datsyuk, prime Kolalchuk, Kovalchuk, prime Ovechkin and prime Malkin, but the USA were much better in both 2010 and 2014 thanks to more scorers and better defencemen.

Having scorers everywhere matters so much in international hockey. When the US left off depth scoring in 2016, in favor of traditional defensive NHL level bottom 6ers, because Tortorella is a weirdo, they failed miserably.

Team USA had a coach, Team Russia were coached by players..

 

[AB13]

If you can have also depth with superstars = perfect. Russia has great top end talent but depth quite mehh, correct.

But if we look at Sweden's bottom-6, there are no players that compare to USA or Canada bottom players. Those are good players, but not difference makers.

If Finland can put guys like Hintz, Lundell, Kapanen, Puljujärvi to bottom lines that makes them also a scoring threat. Not as good depth as Sweden, but it's not a big difference.

Landeskog -Bäckström - Nylander
Pettersson - Zibanejad - Nylander
Bratt - Lindholm -Raymond
Burakovsky -Eriksson Ek - Kempe

The difference in bottom 6 between Sweden and Finland is significant and more than makes up for what you perceive to be a difference in superstars. All players on that team are high end scorers. Could add Olofsson, Arvidsson, Rakell, or someone else, if you prefer. That bottom 6 is definately not much worse than the USA bottom 6 today, and on par with the 2010 and 2014 teams we talked about.

 

[AB13]

Team USA had a coach, Team Russia were coached by players..

Coaching is obviously incredibly important and an argument in Finlands favor for now.

 

[Elias40]

I agree that Finland currently has three players, which is higher than anything Sweden has in the attack. And these are Aho, Barkov and Rantanen. All still young, the team will revolve around them and they will be the ones on whom Finland's success in the best tournament will depend. I just have Zibanejad, Forsberg or Nylander with Landeskog a little lower than the Finnish trio. But behind the top is already the predominance of Swedes, and quite clearly. There are more of them and it will give Sweden a better chance of scoring a goal than the Finns. And while it's nice that Finland has excellent defensive players like Armia or Lehkonen, the Swedes also get the same quality backwards, but with a higher quality score. And the role of defenders in today's hockey is underestimated, Finland has no chance there, and given what both countries produce, it won't change much. I will not intentionally look to the future and write about how Raymond or Holtz will be in 2-3 years, I take what is now and see that Aho, Barkov and Rantanen are the three best players from the north of Europe.

 

[karhukissa]

Landeskog -Bäckström - Nylander
Pettersson - Zibanejad - Nylander
Bratt - Lindholm -Raymond
Burakovsky -Eriksson Ek - Kempe

The difference in bottom 6 between Sweden and Finland is significant and more than makes up for what you perceive to be a difference in superstars. All players on that team are high end scorers. Could add Olofsson, Arvidsson, Rakell, or someone else, if you prefer. That bottom 6 is definately not much worse than the USA bottom 6 today, and on par with the 2010 and 2014 teams we talked about.

Barkov >>Zibanejad
Aho >> Lindholm
Hintz >Eriksson Ek
Lundell<Bäckström (Who is close to retirement)

And you know very well what's by far the most important position after goalie in hockey. Also there is no swedish winger that's even remotely close to Rantanen. Very good players though, but there's a difference between superstar and good player.

 

[IceHockeyDude]

Coaching is obviously incredibly important and an argument in Finlands favor for now.

This was possible the first sane comment you have contributed to this thread. Thank you.

 

[teravaineSAROS]

Anyone know where i can watch the highlights? there is none on youtube.

Let me know if you find any

 

[Nate070]

This was possible the first sane comment you have contributed to this thread. Thank you.

I tend to agree. I think he´s pretty grumpy

 

[AB13]

This was possible the first sane comment you have contributed to this thread. Thank you.

You think everything that isn’t pro-Finland isn’t sane then? Like the comments on how depth matters and how the young swedish generation is good? No, nothing sane about that?

 

[IceHockeyDude]

Let me know if you find any

Beijing 2022 – Finland mot Sweden - Ishockey – OL-høydepunkter

 

[Snowsii]

Coaching is obviously incredibly important and an argument in Finlands favor for now.

Werent Kovalchuk spotted drinking Pepsi with some other guy in national game... No coach with authority would allow that..

 

[AB13]

Werent Kovalchuk spotted drinking Pepsi with some other guy in national game... No coach with authority would allow that..

Yeah the players had all of the power on those Russian teams.

 

[FiLe]

Anyone know where i can watch the highlights? there is none on youtube.

Let me know if you find any

 

[Pandaman11]

Qualification
Canada vs China (again)
Czech vs Swiss (again...)
Denmark vs Latvia (Slovenia 2014 2.0)
Slovakia vs Germany

QF
USA vs Slovakia/Germany
Finland vs Czech/Swiss
Russia vs Denmark/Latvia
Sweden vs Canada