Post-Game Talk: Game VI Pens loss to Stars: Our Stars can’t dance

[ChaosAgent]

Ryan Shea baby

 

[Andy99]

Uh like wasnt this quote from three years ago? Hasn’t our bad puck management been a constant, consistent issue for the last several seasons? And have we thought to play a way that makes decision making easier for the players then? No….

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Hopefully Ludvig will recover and last long enough with us to lay a hit where he doesn't knock himself out.

 

[Tacitus Kilgore]

Lol…”our expected goals were through the roof. So was our xGF and xGA. We were on top our numbers! Moral victory!”

Casually shits on Buffalo by saying "TONIGHT we're playing a good team"

Hopefully Ludvig will recover and last long enough with us to lay a hit where he doesn't knock himself out.

He's going to do it again

 

[Empoleon8771]

It's very clearly a situation where a coach is just so spitefully stubborn and set in his ways that he will never change, and a case that the roster is also not good enough to be anything more than a borderline WC team that's the ritual 1st round sacrifice.

They can blow it up and nothing would be different. We'd still be watching awful hockey with a team that doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of making a deep run. The best players are too old to carry the water for a Cup run anymore, the supporting cast isn't good enough to make up the difference with depth scoring, the goaltending isn't good enough, and again, the coaching staff is in full mail it in mode.

I'd like to see Sullivan on the hot seat before I'd write him up as never changing, tbh. I think his problem is that he has such extreme job security that he doesn't feel the need to deviate from the system that he thinks is perfect.

To bring up another NFL analogy, it's like the guy who first implemented the wildcat in the NFL and had success with it immediately. The issue is that teams adjusted to counter it, so if you kept trying to run the wildcat, you'd get stuffed. I think that's what is happening here with Sullivan, the league figured out his system and he needs to go back to the drawing board to make adjustments to that system.

That's another part of the reason why I think his such early extensions were so nonsensical. It doesn't matter who the coach is, any coach with that insane level of job security is going to default to what he's comfortable with. You need that pressure to be innovative because you'll just default to what you're comfortable with if you don't have that pressure.

 

[Andy99]

 

[Still Apps]

I mentioned in the game thread that Matt Vensel of the Post Gazette was on Mark Madden's show today. He said he had a conversation with Ryan Graves, just kind of checking in and seeing how Graves was adjusting.

Graves was positive, upbeat but said that the Pens have a lot more structure than he is used to compared to Colorado and New Jersey, and that it has been a big adjustment.

My eyes kind of popped open there. I wasn't expecting that answer.

I'm beginning to wonder if the problem with the system is that it is too rigid and it's forcing some guys to slow down and think rather than simply play.

Here's a quote from Graves in a Post Gazette article by Andrew Destin:

“I think it's been better each game, to be honest,” Graves said. “There’s a learning curve to it. I think there’s been a learning curve for me coming to a new system that’s been very different than the system that I played in [New] Jersey. Jersey plays a system unlike any other team in the league.”

Is it more structure or just unfamiliarity that Graves is experiencing? The quote above seems to point to the Devil's system being unique, not the Pens system.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I'd like to see Sullivan on the hot seat before I'd write him up as never changing, tbh. I think his problem is that he has such extreme job security that he doesn't feel the need to deviate from the system that he thinks is perfect.

To bring up another NFL analogy, it's like the guy who first implemented the wildcat in the NFL and had success with it immediately. The issue is that teams adjusted to counter it, so if you kept trying to run the wildcat, you'd get stuffed. I think that's what is happening here with Sullivan, the league figured out his system and he needs to go back to the drawing board to make adjustments to that system.

Why not just bring in a coach with a different system?

Maybe it will get dire enough to see Sully canned. But they'll be too far out of it this year. If I could bet on it I think Dubas still thinks Sully is the man for the job and FSG is still adamantly pro-Sully.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Why not just bring in a coach with a different system?

Maybe it will get dire enough to see Sully canned. But they'll be too far out of it this year. If I could bet on it I think Dubas still thinks Sully is the man for the job and FSG is still adamantly pro-Sully.

Because I think Sullivan on the hot seat would bring better solutions than most other coaches you could bring in. You just need to pressure him into actually feeling the need to make those changes.

If Sullivan won't make changes, then you fire him. But put him on the hot seat first and see what he can come up with before just defaulting to firing him. IMO the issue here is "Sullivan isn't making changes to his system" more than "Sullivan shouldn't be the coach here".

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Why on earth does anybody care what players or coaches say after a loss (or win, for that matter)?

It's all regurgitated PR garbage and mediaspeak.

I'd like to see Sullivan on the hot seat before I'd write him up as never changing, tbh. I think his problem is that he has such extreme job security that he doesn't feel the need to deviate from the system that he thinks is perfect.

To bring up another NFL analogy, it's like the guy who first implemented the wildcat in the NFL and had success with it immediately. The issue is that teams adjusted to counter it, so if you kept trying to run the wildcat, you'd get stuffed. I think that's what is happening here with Sullivan, the league figured out his system and he needs to go back to the drawing board to make adjustments to that system.

That's another part of the reason why I think his such early extensions were so nonsensical. It doesn't matter who the coach is, any coach with that insane level of job security is going to default to what he's comfortable with. You need that pressure to be innovative because you'll just default to what you're comfortable with if you don't have that pressure.

I mean, at what point in a half-decade of spiraling embarrassment does a coach look inward and realize he's gotta try to be less spitefully rigid in his approach?

Sully doesn't deserve any benefit of the doubt. Stuff that dork in a rug and roll him down eight flights of stairs on his way to the pink slip at the bottom.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I mean, at what point in a half-decade of spiraling embarrassment does a coach look inward and realize he's gotta try to be less spitefully rigid in his approach?

Sully doesn't deserve any benefit of the doubt. Stuff that dork in a rug and roll him down eight flights of stairs on his way to the pink slip at the bottom.

If he keeps getting contract extensions and non-stop fellating from the owners, what incentive does he have to try new things?

This isn't even necessarily a NHL coaching thing, this is just how people work. If you keep getting told you're doing an amazing job and keep getting rewarded/paid for it, what incentive would you have to doing anything else?

I blame Sullivan's egregious stubbornness at this point more on the insane job security that he has than him as a coach. He is stubborn as a coach, but it's to the insane level it is right now because he feels no pressure into doing anything else.

 

[EVGENIMERLIN]

Here's a quote from Graves in a Post Gazette article by Andrew Destin:

“I think it's been better each game, to be honest,” Graves said. “There’s a learning curve to it. I think there’s been a learning curve for me coming to a new system that’s been very different than the system that I played in [New] Jersey. Jersey plays a system unlike any other team in the league.”

Is it more structure or just unfamiliarity that Graves is experiencing? The quote above seems to point to the Devil's system being unique, not the Pens system.

Yeah I agree this reads like it’s just a lot different. He’s not saying it’s better or worse. Just not as unique/different and thus adapting is taking time

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Great. The team can be even more unwatchable and dogshit when they attempt to pretend they're the Canes or Isles without the personnel to deploy that kind of system.

 

[canadianguy77]

Why are you focused and keying in on Malkin Emp? At least he's playing with a pulse. Crosby looks like dogshit out there. His lazy play in the neutral zone lead to third goal with Ned leaving the net and my interest in this team leaving my body. Line one may have scored but they were not looking good tonight other than that last minute in the first.

Wasn’t so much of a lazy play as it was him being left on an island by his wingers. When you have 3 bodies closing in on you, it gets difficult to know where to throw the puck. That was horrible play by those two.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Only you can watching going to games

Going to Games is my favorite old person game show that nobody under the age of 70 knows about.

 

[KareemTrustfund]

Getting a little bit tired of all this Sullivan blame. If we need to blame somebody , it should be Mr. And Mrs Sullivan for raising such a stubborn little boy.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Anyhow sounds like this is going to absolutely suck all the life out of my 2.5 hour train ride today.

 

[pistolpete11]

Because I think Sullivan on the hot seat would bring better solutions than most other coaches you could bring in. You just need to pressure him into actually feeling the need to make those changes.

If Sullivan won't make changes, then you fire him. But put him on the hot seat first and see what he can come up with before just defaulting to firing him. IMO the issue here is "Sullivan isn't making changes to his system" more than "Sullivan shouldn't be the coach here".

I dunno, man. If the competitive desire to win isn't enough, then what's pressure going to do? They fire him? So what? he gets paid anyway (unless he gets another job, which he almost surely would). What's the downside for him?

I think it's more likely he just doesn't recognize the issues and/or doesn't know how to address them.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Because I think Sullivan on the hot seat would bring better solutions than most other coaches you could bring in. You just need to pressure him into actually feeling the need to make those changes.

If Sullivan won't make changes, then you fire him. But put him on the hot seat first and see what he can come up with before just defaulting to firing him. IMO the issue here is "Sullivan isn't making changes to his system" more than "Sullivan shouldn't be the coach here".

This is why I've floated changing some of the assistant coaches. I don't think Reirden or Vellucci are innovative or creative enough to help Sullivan.

Even the best coaches need people to challenge them and stoke their creativity. Reirden and Vellucci are as bland as it gets.

 

[ChaosAgent]

If he keeps getting contract extensions and non-stop fellating from the owners, what incentive does he have to try new things?

This isn't even necessarily a NHL coaching thing, this is just how people work. If you keep getting told you're doing an amazing job and keep getting rewarded/paid for it, what incentive would you have to doing anything else?

I blame Sullivan's egregious stubbornness at this point more on the insane job security that he has than him as a coach. He is stubborn as a coach, but it's to the insane level it is right now because he feels no pressure into doing anything else.

Is there really someone in FSG who knows hockey systems better than Sullivan who is going to sit down with him about that?

They shouldn't have to tell him to change his style. They should just point to the trend line of the results and say "bye, let's try something else. We'll only have to eat his salary for 6 months max."

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

If he keeps getting contract extensions and non-stop fellating from the owners, what incentive does he have to try new things?

This isn't even necessarily a NHL coaching thing, this is just how people work. If you keep getting told you're doing an amazing job and keep getting rewarded/paid for it, what incentive would you have to doing anything else?

I blame Sullivan's egregious stubbornness at this point more on the insane job security that he has than him as a coach. He is stubborn as a coach, but it's to the insane level it is right now because he feels no pressure into doing anything else.

No, I agree. The media and organization have just heaped nothing but absurd positive reinforcement on him since the back to backs. But like, at what point does a person go "Maybe what I'm doing is also incorrect" after endless failures? I mean, a normal person, not Sullivan, whose ego rivals Jagr's.

 

[mephisto1812]

Lol…”our expected goals were through the roof. So was our xGF and xGA. We were on top our numbers! Moral victory!”

Yeah I agree, I can very easily agree with the theory that Sullivan has this team playing way too scripted of an offensive system that is easy for teams to counter.

That would also explain why their bottom-6 offense went to shit so fast last year out of nowhere. The league figured out Sullivan's offensive script and it became incredibly easy to shut down that system, and the guys in the depth of their lineup just don't have the skill or creativity to deviate from that offensive script.

Assuming all of the above is true (and I think most of it is) .... one can only hope that Sully finally relents, and works with Dubas to figure this out. Do I think that it can be fixed? ehhh.... honestly not sure, it would take Sully letting go of his ego, and be willing to try new things. (Not to mention being willing to bruise an ego now and again) And it would take at least one, if not two aggressive Dubas moves to push it over the top.

If and when Dubas feels Sully is unwilling to adapt, and to try new things in the spirit of "figuring it out", I hope changes are made. Would I prefer it to work out in a meeting of the minds sort of way? Of course, because in the end, there is many a worse combo out there.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Here's a quote from Graves in a Post Gazette article by Andrew Destin:

“I think it's been better each game, to be honest,” Graves said. “There’s a learning curve to it. I think there’s been a learning curve for me coming to a new system that’s been very different than the system that I played in [New] Jersey. Jersey plays a system unlike any other team in the league.”

Is it more structure or just unfamiliarity that Graves is experiencing? The quote above seems to point to the Devil's system being unique, not the Pens system.

Vensel - not Destin - specifically said it was a conversation he has with Graves and that he referenced the structure.

 

[pistolpete11]

This is why I've floated changing some of the assistant coaches. I don't think Reirden or Vellucci are innovative or creative enough to help Sullivan.

Even the best coaches need people to challenge them and stoke their creativity. Reirden and Vellucci are as bland as it gets.

How many times have they done that already?

 

[Gurglesons]

This is why I've floated changing some of the assistant coaches. I don't think Reirden or Vellucci are innovative or creative enough to help Sullivan.

Even the best coaches need people to challenge them and stoke their creativity. Reirden and Vellucci are as bland as it gets.

Lol.

It’s goaltending
fire Hextall.
Sullivan doesn’t have his type of players.

The latest. The assistant coaches are bland..