TV: Game of Thrones | Season 6 | Part V (NO BOOK DISCUSSION - NO SPOILERS!)

[Random Forest]

I think having five seasons of build up and two or three seasons of predominantly resolution sounds like a terrible way to structure a series, though. Artful buildup/storytelling can't only apply to early seasons of a show but not later seasons. If a show digs itself in a corner leaving itself no choice but to spend too much of the last few seasons cleaning things up and tying up loose ends, I think that's the fault of the way the show is planned rather an excuse, personally. The fact that the show is running out of time and has no choice but to compromise execution in order to cram as much plot development as possible out of necessity similarly sounds like that would be the fault of poor planning on the show's part (if that is in fact the case).

If that's the case and that's what the intention of this season is, that sounds more like perhaps they may have bit off more than they can chew.

I don't think the show needs to be held to a different standard simply because the circumstances of the show has changed to one where they're now running out of options.

You're misunderstanding. It's that, by definition, the come down has to be more action-based than the build up where exposition and character introduction/development can afford to be more artful. For example in the build up, Littlefinger and Varys can have their extended banter, we can have intriguing tension between Arya and Tywin, relationship building between Arya and the Hound, etc. Those aren't story elements you will find at this point where it stops being expositional and starts becoming more substantive. That's not poor execution; it's just plot structure.

Like I said, they could keep it more "artful" and construct classic scenes of witty dialogue... but it would come at the expense of critical plot movement. I genuinely don't think you can have both unless you plan for the series to last for 10+ seasons which really isn't feasible. Not to mention that the action we're getting is quite artful with yesterday being among the most artfully constructed dramatic sequences in the entire series.

I'm genuinely curious of an example of a show with comparable dramatic depth that didn't contain substantially more action in the last couple seasons.

 

[Emperoreddy]

I always found that scene in season 1 a little ambiguous because Dany says after Viserys died that he was no true dragon sort of implying he was the one that was different

Story has mentioned multiple Targs that have died from fire. Both dragon fire and wild fire.

 

[Emperoreddy]

The Greyjoy fleet is already on its way...

We don't know this and Yara doesn't have the whole fleet.

I could see the season ending with the walkers coming through the tunnel under the wall.

Tag line for next season is "winter has come"

 

[F L Y E R S]

So Valyria is where the stone men are now. The place that was overgrown ruins last year? That's the original home of the Targs? Then the Targs moved to Dragonstone, then on to Kings Landing, before the rebellion happened?

 

[Super Cake]

Hodors death got to me more than the red wedding or Jon Snows death.

It is probably because i knew about the red wedding and Jon snow before they even happened though. It might also be becasue he was one of the most innocent characters in the Game of Thrones universe. Wanted to see him have a happy ending.

 

[FLYLine27*]

Hodor's death was done perfectly since they explained why his name is Hodor and why he says it all the time, PERFECTLY done...that being said the Red Wedding will never be beat. That was probably the greatest movie/tv scene i've ever seen. I still remember sitting in front of my TV with literally my jaw on the ground is disbelief what I just saw.

 

[Emperoreddy]

So Valyria is where the stone men are now. The place that was overgrown ruins last year? That's the original home of the Targs? Then the Targs moved to Dragonstone, then on to Kings Landing, before the rebellion happened?

It was the super kingdom way back in the day. They had magic, dragons, the ability to make Valyrian Steel which has special properties as we have seen. Their empire controlled nearly all of Essos.

The Targs left before the Doom happened that destroyed their empire and set up shop at Dragonstone. Eventually they went further and conquered the seven kingdoms.

That is where the stonemen are. The ruins of Old Valyria.

 

[2CHAINZ]

I rewatched the episode and let's just say I wish I didn't.

 

[Hurt]

Just rewatched the Hold the Door scene... Still can't handle it. Great acting by little Hodor.

I'm sure this has been discussed already but Hodor was so frightened of storms because he always thought it was the one he was going to die in.

 

[HanSolo]

Hodor's death was done perfectly since they explained why his name is Hodor and why he says it all the time, PERFECTLY done...that being said the Red Wedding will never be beat. That was probably the greatest movie/tv scene i've ever seen. I still remember sitting in front of my TV with literally my jaw on the ground is disbelief what I just saw.

Same. I'll never forget how I was lying down kinda bored and immediately stood up and repeated the words "What the ****" until the credits rolled

 

[Yarborough]

The Hold the Door scene

It has been such a long time since I cried that hard because of something I watched on TV.

 

[Shareefruck]

You're misunderstanding. It's that, by definition, the come down has to be more action-based than the build up where exposition and character introduction/development can afford to be more artful. For example in the build up, Littlefinger and Varys can have their extended banter, we can have intriguing tension between Arya and Tywin, relationship building between Arya and the Hound, etc. Those aren't story elements you will find at this point where it stops being expositional and starts becoming more substantive. That's not poor execution; it's just plot structure.

Like I said, they could keep it more "artful" and construct classic scenes of witty dialogue... but it would come at the expense of critical plot movement. I genuinely don't think you can have both unless you plan for the series to last for 10+ seasons which really isn't feasible. Not to mention that the action we're getting is quite artful with yesterday being among the most artfully constructed dramatic sequences in the entire series.

I'm genuinely curious of an example of a show with comparable dramatic depth that didn't contain substantially more action in the last couple seasons.

It seems like there's a disconnect here between how we're using these terms. In my mind, a good season has its own cohesive progression/structure that fits into the bigger picture, whether it's an introduction season or a come-down season. The manner in which those structural moments flow from one point to next, the rhythm, balance, and the pacing, setup/resolution, (for some shows, the exploration of themes), and the measured weightiness of every moment is what I'm considering artful buildup. They can be both moments that move the plot along or setup themes or ideas. I don't feel that the flow of this season has felt as artful as seasons 1-4 so far (that's not a complaint per say, but I do think that that's true). The direction has not felt as confident and the pacing feels more bloated/rushed. Raw isolated plot points are rapidly delivered in a way that doesn't flow as well as they did in earlier seasons. These things are not a necessity to a season that's in its come-down stage.

I agree that circumstances may have made the task difficult for D&D to manage these last two seasons. The quantity/scope of the characters/off-shooting stories may be enough to demand more than the 2-3 seasons remaining in order to successfully pull the remaining story off with the same care/attention/patience that we got in the first four seasons. They may have also set it up so that they have no choice but to pack the final two seasons with resolution-heavy storytelling.

That's fine. I'll acknowledge that they're in a tough spot now. But it's a tough spot that they built themselves. I do think that what I just described is resulting in a less appealing experience, I'm open to disagreement about whether or not that's true for other people, but I don't agree with the reason you're giving for why this has to be the case and that the way I'm looking at it is not applicable to the type of "come-down" season it is.

 

[Random Forest]

It seems like there's a disconnect here between how we're using these terms. In my mind, a good season has its own cohesive progression/structure that fits into the bigger picture, whether it's an introduction season or a come-down season. The manner in which those structural moments flow from one point to next, the rhythm, balance, and the pacing, setup/resolution, (for some shows, the exploration of themes), and the measured weightiness of every moment is what I'm considering artful buildup. They can be both moments that move the plot along or setup themes or ideas. I don't feel that the flow of this season has felt as artful as seasons 1-4 so far (that's not a complaint per say, but I do think that that's true). The direction has not felt as confident and the pacing feels more bloated/rushed. Raw isolated plot points are rapidly delivered in a way that doesn't flow as well as they did in earlier seasons. These things are not a necessity to a season that's in its come-down stage.

I agree that circumstances may have made the task difficult for D&D to manage these last two seasons. The quantity/scope of the characters/off-shooting stories may be enough to demand more than the 2-3 seasons remaining in order to successfully pull the remaining story off with the same care/attention/patience that we got in the first four seasons. They may have also set it up so that they have no choice but to pack the final two seasons with resolution-heavy storytelling.

That's fine. I'll acknowledge that they're in a tough spot now. But it's a tough spot that they built themselves. I do think that what I just described is resulting in a less appealing experience, I'm open to disagreement about whether or not that's true for other people, but I don't agree with the reason you're giving for why this has to be the case and that the way I'm looking at it is not applicable to the type of "come-down" season it is. I don't feel like the things that you're saying are neccessary really have much to do with the reservations that I have.

That's a reasonable and well-articulated position, so I won't press the point. That said, I feel it needs to be mentioned that the lack of source material probably plays a major factor in what we are both describing. Shooting a TV series requires very weighty plot decisions that would take (and have taken) GRRM years to wrestle with be made in very little time. And not only do those decisions need to be made... but they need to be written, scripted, outlined, cast, designed, filmed, produced, etc. by a massive production team. In comparison, with source material half the project was completed, leaving the show to focus on simply translating the story to the screen.

Not an excuse or anything, but needed to be pointed out since I think the things we are describing naturally result from the fact that they've run out of track.

 

[Shareefruck]

That's a reasonable and well-articulated position, so I won't press the point. That said, I feel it needs to be mentioned that the lack of source material probably plays a major factor in what we are both describing. Shooting a TV series requires very weighty plot decisions that would take (and have taken) GRRM years to wrestle with be made in very little time. And not only do those decisions need to be made... but they need to be written, scripted, outlined, cast, designed, filmed, produced, etc. by a massive production team. In comparison, with source material half the project was completed, leaving the show to focus on simply translating the story to the screen.

Not an excuse or anything, but needed to be pointed out since I think the things we are describing naturally result from the fact that they've run out of track.

Absolutely-- I don't deny any of that. My only point is that, whatever the reason, and however understandable those reasons are, I simply think that season 6 has in fact been less artfully executed than the first four seasons.

 

[USC Trojans]

After the first 5 episodes of this season, dare I say...that the book was actually holding the show back?

The first 5 seasons were based on the events that have happened in the books, and damn there was a lot going on. Trying to condense all the major events into 10 episodes a season means a lot of things weren't fleshed out properly. D&D were put in a lose-lose situation where they had to keep things simple for the viewers while keeping the book readers happy.

With season 6, everyone's an unsullied, so D&D were free to flesh out their own storylines based on guidelines from GRRM. Guess we can say rather than following GRRM's GPS, they chose a more efficient route that would reach the destination nonetheless.

 

[Emperoreddy]

I know this is going into book talk but I think part of the problem with season 5 was they made a choice to basically end every storyline exactly where the last book left them (with some changes of course but all the major cliffhangers are nearly the same in the book)

I think the need to land on such a specific spot lead to the weird pacing issues. Add on the stinker that was Dorne (which I blame partially on location. They had no time to film there and it showed).

 

[Quinning]

Same. I'll never forget how I was lying down kinda bored and immediately stood up and repeated the words "What the ****" until the credits rolled

Yeah but the impact was diminished because lots of people knew it was coming.

Could you imagine if that HADN'T been in the books?

 

[Blender]

I know this is going into book talk but I think part of the problem with season 5 was they made a choice to basically end every storyline exactly where the last book left them (with some changes of course but all the major cliffhangers are nearly the same in the book)

I think the need to land on such a specific spot lead to the weird pacing issues. Add on the stinker that was Dorne (which I blame partially on location. They had no time to film there and it showed).

Dore was so out of place, and it really showed. We see now from the pre-season trailer that at some point Jaime ends up in the Riverlands, and right now he is clashing with the High Sparrow. It seemed that they didn't want to advance these two plot lines very far in season 5, but they needed to have Jaime do something instead of not being in the show. What we got was a disaster.

Hodor's death was done perfectly since they explained why his name is Hodor and why he says it all the time, PERFECTLY done...that being said the Red Wedding will never be beat. That was probably the greatest movie/tv scene i've ever seen. I still remember sitting in front of my TV with literally my jaw on the ground is disbelief what I just saw.

I think Hardhome hit me more in this way than the Red Wedding, although that was shocking as well. Things had just been spiraling downward for Robb that I figured his time was limited, and I had unfortunately heard that he dies at some point from betrayal.

With Hardhome, from the time the blizzard rolled in to the end credits I was stunned and amazed, and was left feeling that way about the episode long after watching it multiple times.

 

[Pirate King Luffy]

How many Wildlings died at Hardhome? There 100,000 of them weren't there?

So if only 5000 made it to the other side of the wall, the remaining 95,000 became White walkers?

Tough.

 

[Quinning]

Hardhome is one of the greatest episodes of television I've ever seen, alongside Ozymandias.

 

[Eco]

I think it's about time to change the title since the show has surpassed the books in almost all aspects.

Last night's episode still has me feeling like I've lost a close friend..ugh..

 

[Blender]

How many Wildlings died at Hardhome? There 100,000 of them weren't there?

So if only 5000 made it to the other side of the wall, the remaining 95,000 became White walkers?

Tough.

Mance attacked the wall with something like 100,000 wildlings, but not all were fighters of course. Quite a few died in the attack on Castle Black, Stannis killed quite a few the next day, and he captured some number. The rest ran off. Jon got less than 5000 wildlings off Hardhome I think, as not everyone actually made it to the boats.

So yea, I'd say there is the possibility for at least 90,000-100,000 wights.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Mance attacked the wall with something like 100,000 wildlings, but not all were fighters of course. Quite a few died in the attack on Castle Black, Stannis killed quite a few the next day, and he captured some number. The rest ran off. Jon got less than 5000 wildlings off Hardhome I think, as not everyone actually made it to the boats.

So yea, I'd say there is the possibility for at least 90,000-100,000 wights.

It was already a large amount before Hardhome. It was pretty large at the end of season 2 and soundly defeated Mormont's group at the Fist of the First Men.

Pretty much anyone who died north of the wall becomes a wight unless they are burned

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

Is there a single human left north of the wall aside from Bran and Meera? It's scary to think about it, there were tons of wildlings and those who couldn't leave with Jon at Hardhome made the WW army bigger.

Is there some magic that prevents the WW from crossing the wall? If there was any, it's gone now that Bran has been scarred by the NK. He pretty much doomed everyone in Westeros, unless he finds a way to defeat them.

Bran is now the single most important character in the GoT universe, only he can figure out how to defeat the WW using his time traveling powers.

 

[Gigantor The Goalie]

So where is Bran headed to now with Meera? Do the White Walkers or Wights continue to chase down Bran? They view Bran and his powers as a threat or else they would have just left the tree alone and not killed the bloodraven. It would be interesting to see Bran back south of the wall and what he would do.