GDT: Game 45: Wednesday 1/18/17 Sharks @ Kings 7:30 PM PST

[KingsFan7824]

It's Carter or bust without TT in the lineup.

It's just Carter or bust period this year.

 

[Little Psycho]

It's Carter or bust without TT in the lineup.

Pearson has stepped up after Toff went down, but it's not enough.

 

[deeshamrock]

Feels like this stretch of road games will put a fork in the season

Could be a turning point. That and when Quick is coming back. I think if he's not ready until March, and the team is still playing inconsistant, DL might be conservative at the deadline. But still hearing he's calling around for scoring help. And a rental is possible, if by the deadline he feels it would benefit the team.
I hope not, last 2 years should have been a good and glaring warning sign.

And agree on the turnovers and giveaways last night that led to way to many breakaways and odd man rushes. Lazy...
Hopefully they can rebound vs the Isles on Saturday and use them for target practice.
Hope they can get 7 out of the 10 points on the roadie. Central teams right behind them for the WC

 

[deeshamrock]

Pearson has stepped up after Toff went down, but it's not enough.

No it's not, but their 2.5 current GPG is pretty much the average since Sutter got here in 2012 (2.55 over the last 6 years) and that is with different players. It's the system they are stuck in until a new coach/system arrives.

And they outta thank God that Carter stayed healhty this long, his 8 GWG that's 16 points. Without those, they're keeping company with that Coyotes.
He' is their offense this year, and hopefully stays hot and healthy.

 

[BigKing]

What a nightmare of a home stand, especially since I had to sell the NYE Sharks game and the Jets game so just trekking up to LA to watch a lot of boring losses.

Real rough watching this team in person on a regular basis.

 

[Little Psycho]

What a nightmare of a home stand, especially since I had to sell the NYE Sharks game and the Jets game so just trekking up to LA to watch a lot of boring losses.

Real rough watching this team in person on a regular basis.

I was thinking about going to my first game on February 25th against the Ducks, but now I'm not sure.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

They always have great defensive numbers, but at end of the day that doesn't mean much when they are not winning. I think it says a lot when your team is trailing after the second period and not giving their best effort in the third. I stopped watching after the second cos I knew the result.

To me, I take solace in the fact that's a positive sign because it means growth from the young d-men and it's in spite of injuries, schedule, and low production from some.

We're still hovering in a playoff spot despite missing many key players for literally months at a time. Sure, there's a chance we're never even close to completely healthy, but I don't think Kopitar is going to end the season at 40 points, I DO think Toffoli is going to come back and put some pucks in, and some of our other luck is going to break right soonish too. The question will just be, at that point, if other teams have grown a lot as well, because there are other underperforming teams around us (Nashville, most notably, but also Winnipeg if they sort out their goaltending).

Most simulations have us finishing in a low Pacific or high Wildcard spot and I get that feeling anyway...but I do get a bit of a 2015 vibe from our division which has been a bit of a sleeping monster, but this time, they won't be flukes imo.

I dunno, as frustrating as this team can be every third night or so, I'm having fun with it. Reminds me a lot of the pre-2012 teams where we were simply in the chase--which is all we are now--and make the playoffs and anything can happen. Quick can steal the show. Kopi can go nuclear. Doughty is nearly always phenomenal. And we had a lot of these conversations then as well. The difference is no 10-game winning streak, heh. But it's just a matter of expectations.

 

[LAKings88]

I have fast forwarded throu so many DVRed games this year.

This team is a bit stale but it is what it is.

I'm impressed at where they are in the standings given all that has happened.

My expectations are low for the rest of the season. Hoping they are sellers at the deadline and recoup a high pick for their troubles if they fall out of contention.

I'm not sure Quick will be a huge deference maker when he returns. Maybe the offense will be more confident to take some risks.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Defensively, the systems play is still there, hence their low GA and SA numbers. That hasn't gone away. But they are so systemic in their play that it echoes the issues this team had under Terry Murray. Remember the fire and intensity they showed when Sutter took over? That's long gone.

The reason why this team is still in a wild card spot is thanks to how poorly every other team in the West has performed, but they're starting to turn it on, whereas the Kings are starting to drift away.

 

[KingsFan7824]

To me, I take solace in the fact that's a positive sign because it means growth from the young d-men and it's in spite of injuries, schedule, and low production from some.

It's certainly not all bad. There is some value in the story of the season. It's not the Colorado Avalanche situation.

I dunno, as frustrating as this team can be every third night or so, I'm having fun with it. Reminds me a lot of the pre-2012 teams where we were simply in the chase--which is all we are now--and make the playoffs and anything can happen. Quick can steal the show. Kopi can go nuclear. Doughty is nearly always phenomenal. And we had a lot of these conversations then as well. The difference is no 10-game winning streak, heh. But it's just a matter of expectations.

It's a $10m cap hit contract instead.

That's going back to the story though. Pre-2012, it's all upside. It's Kopitar with the winner on the road in OT against Vancouver, giving the young Kings an actual playoff win. It's Doughty winning a playoff game almost by himself against the Sharks. It's the feeling, whether you liked the trade or not, of Lombardi doing the Richards deal.

Post-2014, it might as well be a different book, in a different genre, written and edited by different people.

 

[BigKing]

Yeah, I've been thinking while at the games that I'd be stoked on this team's performance if this was 2009; however, it is 2017.

This definitely isn't fun.

This is like a really great TV show that stayed on the air for too long and put up a couple of mediocre seasons at the end with everyone just collecting checks. Pretty much the same cast, same jokes but everyone is getting paid way more than when the show originally became a hit. The writers have a formula that "works" but its effectiveness wanes with each season.

Like, I can't watch ****ing Tim Allen talk to his neighbor over the fence anymore. More and more, I'm expecting a black hole finish this season which was my biggest fear coming into the season.

Boring hockey, a black hole finish and then lose a young and cheap contract in the expansion draft? Wheeeee!

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I don't disagree with either of you guys, but what do you expect to happen 3 years after a championship? Where are all those other Cup Final teams? Boston is in the middle of a retool after years of pulling a 2015 Kings. TB can barely pull themselves together either. Philly was never even close after their run. New Jersey? lol. Rangers have had some sustained success--props to them for doing it in a number of ways--and there's obviously Chicago but they're the aberration here. I mean, I guess it doesn't make it necessarily easier knowing (thinking?) it's coming down the pike at some point, but I'm impressed this team is still in the chase after shedding as many impact players as they have in recent years and despite nightmare seasons and injuries.

I mean, I wouldn't worry, because I'm sure at some point DL will run out of goodwill/equity and the blackhole seasons won't happen, we'll just pull an Edmonton/Buffalo and have to start all over. But there's usually a step between "Champion" and "godawful."

 

[kingsholygrail]

Don't forget the Penguins disappearing after their first win all the way until this last season. 7 years?

Ducks never went back.
Sharks finally made it only to lose.
Canucks haven't made it back since their 2011 attempt.
Boston hasn't been back since getting destroyed by the Blackhawks.
Red Wings haven't been back since beating the Penguins.
Hurricanes?
Oilers?
Avalanche?
Ottawa?
Calgary?

Look how long it took the Kings to return after 93.

And the Flyers... Perennially getting beat by some super team every 5-10 years.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Good example with the Penguins, but it took a change in management, a head coach, and some fresh, young faces in the lineup to turn that team around.

That's what it might take for this team to turn things back around. The future looks bleak with very little to show for in Ontario in terms of NHL ready prospects. They have no promising prospects in net, they have some guys on the blueline like Clague, LaDue and Cernak who may turn into something, and up front there isn't much after Kempe, Brodzinski and possibly Amadio and Watson.

But hey, who needs an injection of youth when guys like King, Clifford, Nolan, Setoguchi, Greene, Gilbert, etc. are all making great contributions along with the overpaid guys who's best years are behind them?

The sad thing is that this road path is similar to what happened to Tampa Bay after they won their Cup in 2004. Guys got older, poor drafting set them back, and it took quite a few years of floundering in order for them to recover. After winning the Cup, that team got eliminated in the first round in 2006 and 2007, then missed the playoffs for three consecutive seasons until they made the playoffs and reached the Conference Finals in 2011. That team went through various changes in players, management and coaches.

I feel like the Kings are on a similar trajectory after 2014 by missing the playoffs in 2015, going out on a whimper in 2016. It's not getting any better unless something changes.

 

[BigKing]

I don't disagree with either of you guys, but what do you expect to happen 3 years after a championship? Where are all those other Cup Final teams? Boston is in the middle of a retool after years of pulling a 2015 Kings. TB can barely pull themselves together either. Philly was never even close after their run. New Jersey? lol. Rangers have had some sustained success--props to them for doing it in a number of ways--and there's obviously Chicago but they're the aberration here. I mean, I guess it doesn't make it necessarily easier knowing (thinking?) it's coming down the pike at some point, but I'm impressed this team is still in the chase after shedding as many impact players as they have in recent years and despite nightmare seasons and injuries.

I mean, I wouldn't worry, because I'm sure at some point DL will run out of goodwill/equity and the blackhole seasons won't happen, we'll just pull an Edmonton/Buffalo and have to start all over. But there's usually a step between "Champion" and "godawful."

One of the following:

- Much, much better results during the three years from then to now.

- A better prospect pool in light of the lack of results.

You can spin it and say that the three years after the first Cup netted a WCF appearance and another Cup. I get it and I'm eternally thrilled for what transpired between 2012 and '14, I'm just really not happy about the **** show that has been going on since. Some of it was out of the team's control but there have also been some pretty big, self-inflicted mistakes.

They are a middling team at this point. Extremely top heavy so they can't afford dips in production from key guys like Chicago can with Toews. They haven't had a Voynov situation, but they've also moved on from talented players instead of paying everyone, unlike DL who has paid everyone and continues to pay guys that aren't even in the NHL anymore. That's pretty frustrating. No surprise that they went ahead and used both of the gifted compliance buyouts while the Kings did not.

The fall from the top has been much quicker than anticipated. Talk of a dynasty to missing the playoffs the season after winning the whole thing. That's pretty amazing stuff right there.

Anyways, we are going to need to see some results out of the past few drafts--and soon--and maybe look at some college free agents or something with some wheels at the forward position. You don't win in this league unless you have some young guys playing huge roles while carrying small cap hits.

LaDue is the last chance for 2012 to produce a player outside of Pearson and Pearson is set to stop being cost-controlled after this season.

2013 will be even worse than 2011 unless Brodzinski can contribute.

A bit much to expect those drafted in 2014 to be ready to rock right now but Kempe needs to be ready to contribute at the start of next season.

The flop at the 2011 draft (Shore and AA are JAGs) and the high probability that 2013 is another bust is really tough and only leads to shining a light on how much losing two 1st round picks in return for one playoff victory was extremely costly: especially when your first pick in 2013 was a bust and then McKeown was shipped out as well.

The drafting has been weak for awhile now and it is starting to show when you've got Jordan Nolan working some 2nd unit PP.

 

[Trolfoli]

You guys really are freaking out way too much....

????/Kopitar/Gaborik
Pearson/Carter/Toffoli
King/Dowd/Lewis (Brown/Seto)
Clifford/Shore/Nolan

Forbort/Doughty
Muzzin/Martinez
Gravel/McNabb (Greene/Gilbert)

Kopitar needs a wing. Maybe that's Kempe or Brodz. Lombardi has been effective at finding wings in the past. Gaborik/Carter/Lucic/Penner. Those aren't the hardest pieces to get.

3C is a bit of a question. Getting a shutdown 3C would take those responsibilities from Kopitar and open up the ice for him. Dowd is playing just fine though.

Forbort/Gravel are playing great and just need time.

Muzzin/Martinez: I'd like to upgrade that pairing and get a RHD, but it may not be necessary.

Really this team isn't that far off from being competitive. It might not happen this year, but all this doom & gloom is a little bit of an overreaction.

They're in the playoff race with Budaj as their 1C. It's a ****ing miracle! Just enjoy it.

 

[ScoreZeGoals]

There is no such thing as "freaking out too much" when the cupboard is bare, we have one playoff win in the last two years, and have a good chance of not making the playoffs again.

If there is no playoffs this year, there will be a coaching change and/or a core piece will be moved.

 

[Trolfoli]

There is no such thing as "freaking out too much" when the cupboard is bare, we have one playoff win in the last two years, and have a good chance of not making the playoffs again.

If there is no playoffs this year, there will be a coaching change and/or a core piece will be moved.

Doubt it. Sutter isn't getting canned for a season Quick missed. That's easy enough to sell.

Kings don't need a high end prospect, they need a Sheary/Rust to come up from Ontario. They may have a guy down there that's more then capable to fill that role by the playoffs, or they could trade for one. Again, way too much panic.

Edit: The difference between this year and last year is losing a top 6 player and Quick. That's it. Sucking in the playoffs was due to having 1 D that could move the puck due to injuries. This team gets Quick back and someone to fill that top 6 spot next to Carter or Kopitar and this thing is right back on track.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Yeah I don't get why people think some of us dealing with the reality of this team consider us to be "freaking out."

The facts show this team is in the decline. Clinging on is what Lombardi has been trying to do while failing to accept that his patchwork transactions didn't do much to delay the inevitable.

Since 2012 and 2014, the following players have departed the team:

Justin Williams
Slava Voynov
Mike Richards
Jarret Stoll
Willie Mitchell
Robyn Regehr
Dustin Penner
Simon Gagne
Brad Richardson
Colin Fraser
Martin Jones
Jonathan Bernier

and Dustin Brown.

Then last season they lost:
Milan Lucic
Vincent Lecavalier
Kris Versteeg
Luke Schenn (crap)
Jhonas Enroth

These are the players who have been inserted into the lineup to fill those holes:

Devin Setoguchi
Nick Shore
Nic Dowd
Andy Andreoff
Derek Forbort
Kevin Gravel
Brayden McNabb
Peter Budaj
Jeff Zatkoff

Is this really good example of a team that drafts well? I think not.

 

[Trolfoli]

More freaking out. Kings have all the major pieces that are hard to get through drafting. Not drafting well? Why does that matter? Right now they are down a wing from last year, Toffoli is out, Kopitar has been carrying Lewis/Brown/King with an injury.

Side note: The game Kopitar missed with the flu showed just how much he does for this team every night.

Also would like to point out, when you are at the top there is only one way to go. Kings were hoping for a longer run, but that didn't happen. Now they need to retool, but the championship frame work is still there, and they just need auxiliary pieces.

Edit: You know we've gone to crazy world when I'm the calm voice in the room.

 

[Trolfoli]

Ok... fun exercise... What do you guys think it would take to get back to a team that can compete in the playoffs?

My list looks like, healthy team, 1 top 6 wing (young/vet doesn't matter), possible reshuffling of the D (may not be required)... That's not a huge obstacle to overcome.

Reshuffling: Trade one of Martinez/Muzzin for a RHD that would be paired with the other.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I don't think any single trade will fix things. They just have to start drafting and developing talent that can make an impact like what they got out of Toffoli (2nd rounder), Voynov (2nd rounder), Pearson (1st rounder), Martinez (4th rounder), Muzzin (free agent prospect), etc.

All of them were young players who stepped it up when they were brought up and put into roles where they can shine and succeed.

Lombardi used to boast that he took pride in seeing his team's getting better while also getting younger. They need to get back on that page and better hope that Kempe, Brodzinski, Mersch, Amadio, etc. can develop into NHL players.

When the right time comes to pull the trigger on a Richards or Carter like trade, you do that, but right now isn't the time for that.

 

[deeshamrock]

Doubt it. Sutter isn't getting canned for a season Quick missed. That's easy enough to sell.

Kings don't need a high end prospect, they need a Sheary/Rust to come up from Ontario. They may have a guy down there that's more then capable to fill that role by the playoffs, or they could trade for one. Again, way too much panic.

Edit: The difference between this year and last year is losing a top 6 player and Quick. That's it. Sucking in the playoffs was due to having 1 D that could move the puck due to injuries. This team gets Quick back and someone to fill that top 6 spot next to Carter or Kopitar and this thing is right back on track.

Don't count on major changes not happening, this team has backslid for the last 3 years and the owners might not be content to look the other way again. Loss of playoff revenue for three years might prompt some changes. And Quick being out is not the reason the team is floundering. Budaj has kept them in most games They have 0 goal differential, that is the part of the reason. They have averaged the same 2.5 goals for since Sutter arrived in 2012 and the NHL has evolved and they haven't. DL and co, haven't drafted well, made poor trade decisions and the team is taking another step backwards. Unless JQ is playing top 6 forward on his return, no miracle in happening there.

Kings top center is turning 30 this summer and there is no replacement in the farm system. That's a problem. Your number 2 center is having a great year and deserves all the credit he's been given (w/o Carter this team has 16 less points and is in COyotes territory) but it's not realistic to think that will continue next year and beyond when he's 33.

TT, TP and Drew Doughty are all very good core pieces who are young and not yet in their full prime.
Quick is turning 31 and while that's not too old for a goalie, it's not young either. And his GA at 2.27 in the regular season is good but not elite. His playoffs GA have risen over the last 3 years, each year. Some of that is tied to the team in front of him but some of it his also on him. Who is his heir apparent?

Kings are a good team, but the luster has worn off the pearl. Most teams are only as good as their farm system and right now, it's not the rich harvest area it should be. Lombardi's stubborn to a fault and sometimes those decisions don't pay off. Look at the mistakes he made with the World Cup roster. Sticking by his 'way of hockey' and leaving talented skilled players off the roster. And it backfired badly. That's not so different as the situation he's in now, and has been for the last 2 years.

Most teams go thru this, usually have a 5 year window and then they fall back into 'good status', if they are lucky, they stay in the competitive but not a contender range and don't lose too much ground. Some teams fare better than others in that regard. Hopefully, DL rights the ships, is strong enough to admit he has to change his ways and focus on those positive changes to build a better team for the future.

 

[Trolfoli]

Drafting at this point doesn't matter because the Kings have a limited amount of time to get back before the major pieces fall apart. Picking up a Toffoli/Vonynov in the 2nd round that takes a few years at this point doesn't make the team better in the window. Only way that matters is if they're able to find a guy that can come in within a year of getting drafted. Those guys go at the top of the draft and look out of reach.

Moving Lombardi and changing direction at this point would require a blow up. Right now the choice is stick with it for a couple more years, until the core falls completely apart, and see if Lombardi can patch things up or move in a different direction. Kings don't have the personnel to make that kind of shift so they are stuck. Moving in that different direction would require bottoming out. That can happen in a year or two anyways. Might as well see if they can get back first.

 

[deeshamrock]

They play the Sharks tomorrow. I'm going to guess that's why.

True but they are also looking for a defenseman. They have too many forwards and not enough money to ink them all.