Post-Game Talk: Game #25: Blackhawks 2, Canucks 1 - Six goals? Nah, one goal will do fine...

[MISC*]

Everybody relax!

It's a process!

 

[VanillaCoke]

Y2K has pretty much crushed all arguments for luongo being the problem.

 

[Smokey McCanucks]

Earlier in the season they were not playing very well, but were getting some puck luck and good bounces and winning close games as a result. Now they are playing better, but the bounces just aren't coming. San Jose game we had the edge in play, led wire-to-wire, then a goal in the last minute on a fluke bounce, lose on an OT powerplay. Game in Phoenix, hit the post three times in OT/SO, lose in SO. Dallas game, goal called off because the ref had a bad angle and made a bad call, lose by one. This game, lead for 45 minutes, play well, don't get any bounces, they get the bounces and win by one.

They just gotta keep doing what they're doing and wait for the luck to change.

 

[NonBruinHatingCanuck]

Earlier in the season they were not playing very well, but were getting some puck luck and good bounces and winning close games as a result. Now they are playing better, but the bounces just aren't coming. San Jose game we had the edge in play, led wire-to-wire, then a goal in the last minute on a fluke bounce, lose on an OT powerplay. Game in Phoenix, hit the post three times in OT/SO, lose in SO. Dallas game, goal called off because the ref had a bad angle and made a bad call, lose by one. This game, lead for 45 minutes, play well, don't get any bounces, they get the bounces and win by one.

They just gotta keep doing what they're doing and wait for the luck to change.

Yep! Yep! Yep!

 

[y2kcanucks]

Earlier in the season they were not playing very well, but were getting some puck luck and good bounces and winning close games as a result. Now they are playing better, but the bounces just aren't coming. San Jose game we had the edge in play, led wire-to-wire, then a goal in the last minute on a fluke bounce, lose on an OT powerplay. Game in Phoenix, hit the post three times in OT/SO, lose in SO. Dallas game, goal called off because the ref had a bad angle and made a bad call, lose by one. This game, lead for 45 minutes, play well, don't get any bounces, they get the bounces and win by one.

They just gotta keep doing what they're doing and wait for the luck to change.

Is it a coincidence that we got the bounces in games we played bad teams, but aren't getting bounces when we play good teams?

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

Earlier in the season they were not playing very well, but were getting some puck luck and good bounces and winning close games as a result. Now they are playing better, but the bounces just aren't coming. San Jose game we had the edge in play, led wire-to-wire, then a goal in the last minute on a fluke bounce, lose on an OT powerplay. Game in Phoenix, hit the post three times in OT/SO, lose in SO. Dallas game, goal called off because the ref had a bad angle and made a bad call, lose by one. This game, lead for 45 minutes, play well, don't get any bounces, they get the bounces and win by one.

They just gotta keep doing what they're doing and wait for the luck to change.

They got the bounces last night when Bobrovsky was garbage and Columbus missed two wide open nets. Sometimes the luck is the quality of your opponent.

 

[Vankiller Whale]

Luongo is:

0-7-1 when we score 1 goal in regulation
1-0-1 when we score 2 goals in regulation
5-0-1 when we score 3 goals in regulation
5-0-0 when we score 4 or more

Luongo is obviously not costing us when we score 3 or more. How about 2 or 1?

Well let's look at the competition:


Crawford is: 0-1-0 with one goal, and 2-1-2 with 2.
Smith is 0-2-0 with one goal, and 0-2-1 with 2.
Halak is 0-1-0 with one goal, and 1-2-2 with 2
Hiller is 1-2-0 with one goal, and 0-1-1 with 2
Varlamov is 1-2-0 with one goal and 1-1-0 with 2
Niemi is 1-2-0 with one goal, and 3-1-1 with 2
Quick is 0-2-0 with one goal, and 4-1-1 with 2
Harding is 0-2-1 with one goal and 5-2-1 with 2

So only Niemi, Quick, and Harding have significantly better records.

But:

Niemi is 1-0-2 with 3 goal support and 7-0-2 with 4 or more
Quick is 1-2-0 with 3 goal support and 5-0-0 with 4 or more
Harding is 3-0-0 with 3 goal support and 5-0-0 with 4 or more

In terms of the opportunity afforded by the goaltender to win each game based on the amount the team scores, only Harding stands out as a clear upgrade over Luongo.

 

[Wetcoaster]

Well we could win games 2-1, except we seldom ever score 2 goals. Kind of hard to win 2-1 games when the team doesn't score 2 goals in a game. Expecting the team to win 1-0? How many times has that happened this season? Zero times for the guy who many people peg as the current favourite for the Vezina.

Roberto Luongo disagrees with you. He is the one being quoted in my prior post.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Roberto Luongo disagrees with you. He is the one being quoted in my prior post.

If Roberto Luongo were to come out and slam the offense people would jump all over him for that. His comments show what kind of a solid leader he is.

 

[Wetcoaster]

If Roberto Luongo were to come out and slam the offense people would jump all over him for that. His comments show what kind of a solid leader he is.

No it shows that your argument is untenable.

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

Y2K has pretty much crushed all arguments for luongo being the problem.

Amazing. More talk about "The Problemâ„¢" I love it.

 

[Grub]

You guys need to see the bigger picture and start aiming your pitchfork at our GM MIKE GILLIS. Since being eliminated in 2011 we have not given the Sedins any secondary scoring to work with! WHO THE HECK CARES ABOUT CHANCES... All I saw today like all the typical Canuck games (in boston, last year playoff) is CHANCES CHANCES AND MORE CHANCES of us shooting the puck to the net at random locations. Just stop for a moment and look at our goals against Columbus. Lucky bounces and goals which on some nights DO NOT HAPPEN.

This is ludicrous that management has not improved this team since the stanley cup run.. ludicrous. On top of that we have CRAP prospects and I MEAN CRAP. Look at our disgusting farm, Horvat and Shinkaruk are 2-4 years down the line but stop for a minute and look at our 2008-2012 drafts.... No standouts. "But.. but grub we always pick late!!!". Look at Chicago, LOOK at BOSTON, teams that pick late, teams that have won stanley cups, yet they always have young guys stepping up for them performing in the American league.

Fire Mike Gillis please, this experiment should end now. He has failed to address the offense 3 years running.

I can't believe I'm saying this but.. Vigneault was not really the problem. I can see why our lack of scoring the past 2 playoffs is attributed to the players.

 

[y2kcanucks]

No it shows that your argument is untenable.

How does it show that? Luongo could claim that aliens are the problem and that doesn't disprove my argument or the stats behind it either. VKW has posted some compelling stats that back this up as well.

 

[Hammer79]

Roberto Luongo disagrees with you. He is the one being quoted in my prior post.

Do you think Luongo was solely blaming himself for not finding ways to win low scoring games in that quote? He did say 'we'.

 

[VanillaCoke]

No it shows that your argument is untenable.

There's absolutely no logic behind that.
Take a look at the stats, they overwhelmingly show the offense is the issue.

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

There's absolutely no logic behind that.
Take a look at the stats, they overwhelmingly show the offense is the issue.

We are 11th in the NHL in goals scored. We are 16th in the NHL in fewest goals allowed. The Problem™ is with the goals allowed. QED

 

[opendoor]

Why so you mention winning games 2-1 when arguing about winning games with 1 goal of offensive support?

Last years Vezina winner only won 1 game all season when his team gave him 1 goal of offensive support (against us no less). Lundqvist in his Vezina winning season only did it once too. Yet you act as if this is something that Luongo should be doing quite often. It simply isn't that common.

Or maybe the last two Vezina winners weren't elite those seasons, because they needed more than 1 goal of offensive support to win games (with 1 exception each per year).

EDIT: Tim Thomas didn't win a single game where his offense gave him 1 goal of offensive support in the 2010-11 regular season, and he won the Vezina that year in one of the most dominant goaltending seasons of all time. He went 0-6-1 in games where his team scored 1 or 0 goals that year. I wonder if Bruin fans accused him of not being able to steal games when his offense couldn't score more than 1 goal?

The offensive support doesn't really matter when assessing Luongo's play and has no effect on the fact that he's been decidedly mediocre this season.

The fact is, all of those guys shut down the other team consistently which is something Luongo hasn't done this season. Tim Thomas winning a game 2-0 or 3-1 is no easier than Luongo getting his team to OT in a 1-1 game. Unfortunately while Thomas routinely did the former (22 of his 55 starts in 10-11 saw him allow 0 or 1 GA) Luongo basically spots the other team 2+ GF every single night.

I'm not even sure why this is an argument. Since he became a Canuck 7 years ago Luongo consistently got a shutout or allowed only 1 GA about 30-40% of the time on average. This year he has done it only twice in 20 games. It's a big step down that is being amplified by an impotent offense.

 

[Lonny Bohonos]

You guys need to see the bigger picture and start aiming your pitchfork at our GM MIKE GILLIS. Since being eliminated in 2011 we have not given the Sedins any secondary scoring to work with! WHO THE HECK CARES ABOUT CHANCES... All I saw today like all the typical Canuck games (in boston, last year playoff) is CHANCES CHANCES AND MORE CHANCES of us shooting the puck to the net at random locations. Just stop for a moment and look at our goals against Columbus. Lucky bounces and goals which on some nights DO NOT HAPPEN.

This is ludicrous that management has not improved this team since the stanley cup run.. ludicrous. On top of that we have CRAP prospects and I MEAN CRAP. Look at our disgusting farm, Horvat and Shinkaruk are 2-4 years down the line but stop for a minute and look at our 2008-2012 drafts.... No standouts. "But.. but grub we always pick late!!!". Look at Chicago, LOOK at BOSTON, teams that pick late, teams that have won stanley cups, yet they always have young guys stepping up for them performing in the American league.

Fire Mike Gillis please, this experiment should end now. He has failed to address the offense 3 years running.

I can't believe I'm saying this but.. Vigneault was not really the problem. I can see why our lack of scoring the past 2 playoffs is attributed to the players.

I saw you post and noticed the first few lines and thought "isnt this the guy screaming for AV to be fired."

But yes. AV and coaching for that matter is minor minor component.

 

[y2kcanucks]

We are 11th in the NHL in goals scored. We are 16th in the NHL in fewest goals allowed. The Problemâ„¢ is with the goals allowed. QED

Maybe you need to re-check your numbers again. How exactly are we 11th in the NHL offensively?

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Say what you will regarding Luongo, but our offense, or lack thereof, is of far greater concern than him. Frankly, I partially accredit the occasional bad goal as pressure - he knows we simply will not bail him out of games. A two or three goal lead may as well be a death sentence. When a goaltender is forced to essentially play perfect to garner wins. It will inevitably get to them.

If this team has any aspiration of competing. We need to do something. Whether it is trade picks or prospects for your Cammalleris or Statsnys, trade Edler or both. We need to decide, otherwise this season will be pissed away.

 

[y2kcanucks]

The offensive support doesn't really matter when assessing Luongo's play and has no effect on the fact that he's been decidedly mediocre this season.

The fact is, all of those guys shut down the other team consistently which is something Luongo hasn't done this season. Tim Thomas winning a game 2-0 or 3-1 is no easier than Luongo getting his team to OT in a 1-1 game. Unfortunately while Thomas routinely did the former (22 of his 55 starts in 10-11 saw him allow 0 or 1 GA) Luongo basically spots the other team 2+ GF every single night.

I'm not even sure why this is an argument. Since he became a Canuck 7 years ago Luongo consistently got a shutout or allowed only 1 GA about 30-40% of the time on average. This year he has done it only twice in 20 games. It's a big step down that is being amplified by an impotent offense.

You really don't think it's easier for a goalie to win 3-1 or 4-1 than it is to hope you can win 1-0 or 1-1 and get it to OT? I'm baffled by this...

 

[Outside99*]

Henrik looked exhausted. No way he or the others being overplayed will be as effective doing so. Makes no sense, especially 4 forwards on the PP.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Maybe you need to re-check your numbers again. How exactly are we 11th in the NHL offensively?

Technically, we are, provided you count total goals scores. Our average per game however, has us sliding down to 18th, a meager .02 behind the Habs.

 

[Bleach Clean]

No it shows that your argument is untenable.

Full agreement. I am intently taking note of the people agreeing with Y2K here while vehemently disagreeing with him on the Sedins. The irony is there with regards to the context of his position.

And more arbitrary threshold analysis follows... Flawed argument is flawed.

My guess is we will again be talking about Luongo in the next PGT. This issue won't go away via argument. Only his play will quite detractors at this point.

 

[Vankiller Whale]

The offensive support doesn't really matter when assessing Luongo's play and has no effect on the fact that he's been decidedly mediocre this season.

The fact is, all of those guys shut down the other team consistently which is something Luongo hasn't done this season. Tim Thomas winning a game 2-0 or 3-1 is no easier than Luongo getting his team to OT in a 1-1 game. Unfortunately while Thomas routinely did the former (22 of his 55 starts in 10-11 saw him allow 0 or 1 GA) Luongo basically spots the other team 2+ GF every single night.

I'm not even sure why this is an argument. Since he became a Canuck 7 years ago Luongo consistently got a shutout or allowed only 1 GA about 30-40% of the time on average. This year he has done it only twice in 20 games. It's a big step down that is being amplified by an impotent offense.

There are two issues here:

Whether or not Luongo is playing well
Whether or not Luongo is a significant factor in our record

I believe by Luongo's standards he is not playing well. However I think it's far too soon to make any conclusions, and he might easily go on a 10-game hot streak which would vault him back into everyone's good books.

As to whether Luongo's declined play is causing us to fall in the standings, I think not. If we were losing games 3-2 then that would make sense to me, but losing games 2-1, even if he were playing at the top of his game we could only expect to have 1 or 2 more wins. No one has more shutouts than Luongo except for Ben Scrivens(lol), and an extra shutout is relatively meaningless to the overall record of the team.