Post-Game Talk: Game #25: Blackhawks 2, Canucks 1 - Six goals? Nah, one goal will do fine...

[NuxFan09]

Luongo is no longer elite. He's still a good goalie but he's not elite.

My counter argument to you, y2k, when you say that Luongo can't be expected to win games 1-0 or 2-1 all the time is: the offense can't be expected to score more than 1 goal every game either. That's where Luongo is supposed to come up big for the team. Now, the offense has been failing more often than Luongo has so far but still, Luongo is part of the team and he has to be the one to steal these kinds of games sometimes.

 

[y2kcanucks]

This isn`t directed at you in particular, but how simple minded does one have to be to think a team can only have one problem?

I'm still trying to figure out how goaltending can be the problem when the teams goalie allows 2 or fewer goals in 75% of his starts. I'm trying to figure out how goaltending was the problem tonight when Luongo held the leagues top offense to only 2 goals against. I'm trying to figure out why people are asking "why can't Luongo steal us a game?" instead of asking "why can't our offense just do their ****ing job?"

 

[Wetcoaster]

Here is what KB3 thinks of the recent slump.

“We feel like we’re one of the better teams in the league at keeping pucks out of the net, and having zone time,†Bieksa countered. “You don’t blame a loss on one thing. We’re just not getting the puck luck right now. We’re getting a lot of chances. We’re getting a lot of rebounds. We’re just not quite getting to them.

“I know we’ve lost a bunch. We’re frustrated. We’re not going to get down. We’re playing well. It’s not like a few years ago when we lost nine in a row and we were playing like crap every game, getting outplayed and outshot.

“We’re plaing good hockey, we’re just not closing.â€

 

[Hammer79]

Roberto played 20 games last season. Of the first 24, he played 11. He had a .902 sv%.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8466141&view=log&season=20122013#&navid=nhl-keymatch

Our MVP for the first half of the season? What?

You included the team-wide stinker in Detroit in that of course, and went to 11 instead of 10 which included an .875 game vs Calgary but not 12 which was a .963 game vs CBJ. Yeah, that would be cherry-picking and you knew what he meant.

He started the season much hotter than Schneider, while Schneider tripped over his skates in the season opener and had a couple other troubling games like that Oilers stinker. AV went back to Schneider because Luongo was supposed to be on the block and Schneider the team's future, and he was playing the long game. This is why he went back to Schneider in game 4 despite a putrid game 3.

 

[Orca Smash]

And yet the Canucks were winning.

Look at our division.

These issues cropped up before torts arrived.

We also had two incredible goaltenders and the best tandem in the league to fall back on. They both stole us games at different times last two seasons.

Life is much much harder for canucks this year.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Luongo is no longer elite. He's still a good goalie but he's not elite.

My counter argument to you, y2k, when you say that Luongo can't be expected to win games 1-0 or 2-1 all the time is: the offense can't be expected to score more than 1 goal every game either. That's where Luongo is supposed to come up big for the team. Now, the offense has been failing more often than Luongo has so far but still, Luongo is part of the team and he has to be the one to steal these kinds of games sometimes.

Is that for real? Coming into this game Chicago's offense averaged 3.70 goals per game. Yet you're saying our offense can't be expected to score more than ONE FREAKING GOAL??

I fail to see how that's a counter argument.

And for the record, you say 2-1. Again. Any time the Canucks have scored 2 or more, Luongo has not lost in regulation.

 

[StringerBell]

I'm still trying to figure out how goaltending can be the problem when the teams goalie allows 2 or fewer goals in 75% of his starts. I'm trying to figure out how goaltending was the problem tonight when Luongo held the leagues top offense to only 2 goals against. I'm trying to figure out why people are asking "why can't Luongo steal us a game?" instead of asking "why can't our offense just do their ****ing job?"

I'm still trying to figure out why teams can only have one problem... I'm asking both of the bolded questions instead of just one...

 

[Bleach Clean]

Yeah I get that but every time I come into a PGT goaltending is the topic.. seems a bit ridiculous when it's pretty clear that the team is full of grinders that can't finish.

It doesn't seem ridiculous at all IMO. If this team scores like LA, for instance, and plays like them with a hard possession style, then it stands to reason that their numbers will reflect it. As in, lower scoring but with a lower GA as well.

Right now, either the scoring is too low or the goaltending not good enough to win close games. Two issues. Not one, but two disparate issues. One of them will have to be resolved before the team can start winning again. It's not complicated if one is willing to accept both areas as not being good enough.

It's when one chooses to gloss over one area that these 'discussions' arise at all. Acknowledge it and this thread doesn't get to where it has, but some just cant bring themselves to do it. It's a wonder really.

 

[Wetcoaster]

I'm still trying to figure out how goaltending can be the problem when the teams goalie allows 2 or fewer goals in 75% of his starts. I'm trying to figure out how goaltending was the problem tonight when Luongo held the leagues top offense to only 2 goals against. I'm trying to figure out why people are asking "why can't Luongo steal us a game?" instead of asking "why can't our offense just do their ****ing job?"

Keep figuring it should come to you eventually as a number of posters have set it out clearly.

“What are you going to do? We have to learn to win some games 1-0, 2-1. That’s the way the league is right now.

“You can’t just focus on the offence. If you look around the league, it’s all low-scoring games. We have to find ways to win those.â€​

 

[NuxFan09]

And yet the Canucks were winning.

Yes they were. Great goaltending masked the team's offensive issues. Luongo was actually average (2.56 GAA, .907 Save%, 2 shutouts in 20GP) but Schneider was, unsurprisingly, fantastic (2.11 GAA, .927 Save%, 5 shutouts in 30GP).

 

[Orca Smash]

Yes they were. Great goaltending masked the team's offensive issues. Luongo was actually average (2.56 GAA, .907 Save%, 2 shutouts in 20GP) but Schneider was, unsurprisingly, fantastic (2.11 GAA, .927 Save%, 5 shutouts in 30GP).

To be fair lou's save percentage took a hit because of detroit, but then we had schneider who played the third meeting and stole us that game.

Then other nights when cory had trouble we had roberto to fall back on. Was a fantastic luxury while it lasted.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Keep figuring it should come to you eventually as a number of posters have set it out clearly.

“What are you going to do? We have to learn to win some games 1-0, 2-1. That’s the way the league is right now.

“You can’t just focus on the offence. If you look around the league, it’s all low-scoring games. We have to find ways to win those.â€​

Well we could win games 2-1, except we seldom ever score 2 goals. Kind of hard to win 2-1 games when the team doesn't score 2 goals in a game. Expecting the team to win 1-0? How many times has that happened this season? Zero times for the guy who many people peg as the current favourite for the Vezina.

 

[NuxFan09]

Is that for real? Coming into this game Chicago's offense averaged 3.70 goals per game. Yet you're saying our offense can't be expected to score more than ONE FREAKING GOAL??

I fail to see how that's a counter argument.

And for the record, you say 2-1. Again. Any time the Canucks have scored 2 or more, Luongo has not lost in regulation.

Can you read? I said they can't be expected to score more than 1 in EVERY game, just like you said Luongo seemingly is incapable of overcoming only 1 goal worth of support every time, or actually ANY time. It's in those instances when the team only scores 1 or less that you'd expect your supposed elite goalie to come up big. You seem to be giving Luongo a pass for never being able to accomplish this.

 

[NuxFan09]

For heaven's sakes, y2k, even your man himself is telling it like is. Give it up.

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

Yeah I get that but every time I come into a PGT goaltending is the topic.. seems a bit ridiculous when it's pretty clear that the team is full of grinders that can't finish.

There is one person, who has almost twice as many posts as anyone else in this thread, who refuses to acknowledge counter-arguments or to drop the subject, and continues to just keep driving this thread into hell, much like with almost every PGT. If people would just stop engaging with this individual, the discourse would improve markedly.

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

That was my first (it was free) Canucks game at Rogers Arena since 2012, but two observations.

Aside from the goal, Kesler looks noticeably slower and less tenacious on the fore check. We could say that he's regressed, but it could also be a minor injury he's dealing with?

Burrows is struggling. He's still a dependable PKer and two-way forward, but unfortunately a player that seems to have lost a bit of speed (acceleration) and skill to last in a top 6 role. At the moment, we have essentially lost a top 6 forward here. Perhaps I'm rehashing the sentiments of other posters, but it was too damn noticeable from the stands.

Otherwise, we lost to an elite team by 1 goal in a back-to-back, a team that has won two cups in recent years. I was expecting a blowout in their favour, but we held our own.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Can you read? I said they can't be expected to score more than 1 in EVERY game, just like you said Luongo seemingly is incapable of overcoming only 1 goal worth of support every time, or actually ANY time. It's in those instances when the team only scores 1 or less that you'd expect your supposed elite goalie to come up big. You seem to be giving Luongo a pass for never being able to accomplish this.

Chicago has scored more than 1 goal in every game but 1 this year. Why can't we be like that?

Nice condescending and rude comment by the way. Yes I can read.

 

[NuxFan09]

Too much doom and gloom here. This team was beat by an elite team. I thought we played fairly well in the 1st, but started to fade, as one would expect after playing back-to-back.

That was my first (it was free) Canucks game at Rogers Arena since 2012, but two observations.

Aside from the goal, Kesler looks noticeably slower and less tenacious on the fore check. We could say that he's regressed, but it could also be a minor injury he's dealing with?

Burrows is struggling. He's still a dependable PKer and two-way forward, but unfortunately a player that seems to have lost a bit of speed (acceleration) and skill to last in a top 6 role. At the moment, we have essentially lost a top 6 forward here.

On a side note; Chicago has insane depth, plus a crazy prospect pipeline that seemingly churns out well-rounded players with both skill and size.

Is nobody else concerned with the bigger picture here, which is that the Canucks have now lost to great teams 5 times in a row now (Los Angeles, Anaheim, San Jose, Dallas, Chicago)? It's all well and fine to trot out the "Bah, we lost to a great team" card, but not when it becomes a trend. Then you have to start thinking about the possibility that the Canucks just don't measure up with the better teams in the West. How long are we going to keep losing games like this before the excuses finally turn into legit questions about this team?

 

[LiquidSnake]

Luongo allowed a softie today. Yet again. How games
Has he let in 1
Or
Less??!

Yes I'm
Drink

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

Is nobody else concerned with the bigger picture here, which is that the Canucks have now lost to great teams 5 times in a row now (Los Angeles, Anaheim, San Jose, Dallas, Chicago)? It's all well and fine to trot out the "Bah, we lost to a great team" card, but not when it becomes a trend. Then you have to start thinking about the possibility that the Canucks just don't measure up with the better teams in the West. How long are we going to keep losing games like this before the excuses finally turn into legit questions about this team?

I'm repeating myself, but outside of the Leafs game and the Sharks game (our high watermark at this point,) our only regulation wins this season are against Edmonton, Buffalo, Philly, Washington, and Columbus. This is indeed a concern, and I've been trying to point it out now for over a month.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Is nobody else concerned with the bigger picture here, which is that the Canucks have now lost to great teams 5 times in a row now (Los Angeles, Anaheim, San Jose, Dallas, Chicago)? It's all well and fine to trot out the "Bah, we lost to a great team" card, but not when it becomes a trend. Then you have to start thinking about the possibility that the Canucks just don't measure up with the better teams in the West. How long are we going to keep losing games like this before the excuses finally turn into legit questions about this team?

We managed 1 goal in each of those games. Something needs to be done about our offense and fast. When we played bad teams in October, these problems were masked. Now that we're playing good teams we just don't stack up. We're still well on our way to winning the Corsi Cup, and the Fenwick Bowl though, but the Stanley Cup not so much.

 

[NuxFan09]

Chicago has scored more than 1 goal in every game but 1 this year. Why can't we be like that?

Nice condescending and rude comment by the way. Yes I can read.

The Canucks are not an elite team like Chicago is. Not even close.

I can't help but notice that you constantly respond to one part of my argument and never the other. You're avoiding me taking you and Luongo to task about him not being able to win games with 1 goal worth of offensive support.

I get it. You don't have an answer for it. It's just very frustrating that you want to put Roberto on this pedestal but yet not hold him to the appropriate standards. You keep trotting out the excuse that Luongo is undefeated in regulation when he gets more than 2 goals worth of support, which is great, but what about his 0-for stat when he doesn't get that kind of offensive support. If he's so elite, why can't he win one of two of those?

Teams DO win games 1-0 or 2-1 in OT/SO you know.

 

[NuxFan09]

I'm repeating myself, but outside of the Leafs game and the Sharks game (our high watermark at this point,) our only regulation wins this season are against Edmonton, Buffalo, Philly, Washington, and Columbus. This is indeed a concern, and I've been trying to point it out now for over a month.

That's scary. A very alarming and telling factoid.

 

[Hammer79]

Keep figuring it should come to you eventually as a number of posters have set it out clearly.

“What are you going to do? We have to learn to win some games 1-0, 2-1. That’s the way the league is right now.

“You can’t just focus on the offence. If you look around the league, it’s all low-scoring games. We have to find ways to win those.â€​

Luongo's not wrong, they do need to find a way to win low scoring games if they just can't get the offense to click. I think that people are looking at the goaltending as the only factor why we aren't winning these games. Is Luongo sometimes at fault? Yes, but I think many posters are overlooking the problems we've had on D this year that are, I would argue, the main factors leading to untimely goals against.

Bieksa has probably been our most solid defender aside from the occasional 'Casual Kev' moment which he seems to have cut down on this season.

Hamhuis had a dreadful start to the season, but has picked up his game and along with Bieksa is having a good season.

Garrison just isn't connecting offensively for whatever reason, and has had some head scratchers on D although not to the extent of Edler.

Stanton started very strong, but has shown cracks in his game the last few games. I guess that's to be expected from your #6. At least he's putting up points. I shudder to think where we would be if we had to give Weber or Alberts steady minutes instead of this guy.

Edler in general hasn't been good on either side of the puck aside from his shot blocking, missed assignments galore. How many times does this guy have to leave his check open up front before people notice and stop tunnel-visioning Luongo?

Tanev has good games but has had bad games too, at least he's getting lots of blocks in but he's been given too much of a free pass around here. He's leaving his man open way too frequently.

Weber, Alberts probably should have both been cut after their preseason performances, but there's no reason to bring Corrado up to sit in the press box.

 

[y2kcanucks]

The Canucks are not an elite team like Chicago is. Not even close.

I can't help but notice that you constantly respond to one part of my argument and never the other. You're avoiding me taking you and Luongo to task about him not being able to win games with 1 goal worth of offensive support.

I get it. You don't have an answer for it. It's just very frustrating that you want to put Roberto on this pedestal but yet not hold him to the appropriate standards. You keep trotting out the excuse that Luongo is undefeated in regulation when he gets more than 2 goals worth of support, which is great, but what about his 0-for stat when he doesn't get that kind of offensive support. If he's so elite, why can't he win one of two of those?

Teams DO win games 1-0 or 2-1 in OT/SO you know.

Why so you mention winning games 2-1 when arguing about winning games with 1 goal of offensive support?

Last years Vezina winner only won 1 game all season when his team gave him 1 goal of offensive support (against us no less). Lundqvist in his Vezina winning season only did it once too. Yet you act as if this is something that Luongo should be doing quite often. It simply isn't that common.

Or maybe the last two Vezina winners weren't elite those seasons, because they needed more than 1 goal of offensive support to win games (with 1 exception each per year).

EDIT: Tim Thomas didn't win a single game where his offense gave him 1 goal of offensive support in the 2010-11 regular season, and he won the Vezina that year in one of the most dominant goaltending seasons of all time. He went 0-6-1 in games where his team scored 1 or 0 goals that year. I wonder if Bruin fans accused him of not being able to steal games when his offense couldn't score more than 1 goal?