G Sebastian Cossa (2021, 15th, DET)

[GoBoltz56]

Not sure how you took away that I was starting a debate. I wouldn't consider 24 much lower than 30. Most games he is closer to 30 than you make it seem.

Not you specifically, the general response on my post. But we can agree to disagree that statistically there is a difference between 24 and 30 shots on a nightly basis.

 

[Beef Cake]

This is a weird argument, as I am a Wings fan and he is having a great year. Definitely didn't come here to start a debate. But in statistical terms, 24 is much less than 30+ shots a night.

You are the only person adding a + to 30

 

[GoBoltz56]

Cool I'll delete the +. There is a difference between 30 and 24 shots on a nightly basis when it comes to stats.

 

[koyvoo]

Pretty sure he hasn't faced 30+ shots much at all this year. But still a great season.

Always verify stats posted by @GeorgeLeafer12 Always. He loves to exaggerate numbers.

 

[GoBoltz56]

Always verify stats posted by @GeorgeLeafer12 Always. He loves to exaggerate numbers.

Which is exactly why I responded to it.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Save percentage is probably the most useless goaltending stat in history. One goalie could see 5 breakaways a game, 10 odd man rushes and a ton of power plays and save 20/25 for a .800 save percentage while one goalie saves 25 clear soft shots from the point and has a 1.00 Save percentage.

Your two scenarios are completely unrealistic extremes especially when looking over a period of time.
Save % is one of the best stats in hockey.

Just use context of team quality, league quality etc. like you need to for literally all stats.

 

[buyinnow]

Your two scenarios are completely unrealistic extremes especially when looking over a period of time.
Save % is one of the best stats in hockey.

Just use context of team quality, league quality etc. like you need to for literally all stats.

do you believe that over the course of a season a bad defensive team will give up the same chances as a good defensive team ?

save percentage is a team stat.

 

[Artorius Horus T]

Always verify stats posted by @GeorgeLeafer12 Always. He loves to exaggerate numbers.

28 is almost 30

 

[Pavels Dog]

do you believe that over the course of a season a bad defensive team will give up the same chances as a good defensive team ?

save percentage is a team stat.

By that logic every single stat is a team stat. Which I half agree with.
Don't think the difference is as pronounces as you imply though, except in rare cases when comparing best team in a league vs. worst team in a league.

 

[MichaelFarrell]

do you believe that over the course of a season a bad defensive team will give up the same chances as a good defensive team ?

save percentage is a team stat.

Sv% is definitely not just a team stat. It’s no coincidence that the best goalies in the world have a great sv%. Goals against average is way more of a team stat.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Sv% is definitely not just a team stat. It’s no coincidence that the best goalies in the world have a great sv%. Goals against average is way more of a team stat.

By far the best way to project goalies. None of the best goalies in the world have bad SV%’s. If you want to try to predict which goalies will be good, I think you look at who has consistently shown an ability to stop the puck at a high rate. I don’t think it’s much more complicated than that.

 

[KapG]

do you believe that over the course of a season a bad defensive team will give up the same chances as a good defensive team ?

save percentage is a team stat.

There’s an interesting take….

 

[izlez]

Considering for the last 50 years the stats that we've had to measure goalies have been Save %, Goals Against Average, and Wins... I'm pretty sure Save Percentage is not the most useless goaltending stat in history

 

[Legionnaire11]

Save percentage is probably the most useless goaltending stat in history. One goalie could see 5 breakaways a game, 10 odd man rushes and a ton of power plays and save 20/25 for a .800 save percentage while one goalie saves 25 clear soft shots from the point and has a 1.00 Save percentage.

That could happen, but realistically how often does that happen?

And suppose it did, you're taking a sample size of one game in that scenario and no rational analyst would base their opinions on one game. SV% and any % stat is best over a large sample size where anomalies like the scenario you suggest will even out. Combined with watching their on-ice technique and weighing it against which opponents they face and the kind of team support they get is how to properly evaluate a goalie. In a vacuum, every stat is useless.

 

[OldScool]

Sv% is definitely not just a team stat. It’s no coincidence that the best goalies in the world have a great sv%. Goals against average is way more of a team stat.

Not accurate at all. Put Vasi on a poor team and his stats plummet. Look at Fleury a few months ago he had a .928 with Vegas wins a Vezina...goes to Chicago a few days later and now has a .886. Did Fleury all of a sudden stink? In the 90 days off between seasons did Fleury forget how to be the best goalie in world?

Cossa plays on the best team in the WHL so he has a lot of help. Look at the Everett Silvertips - they always have unreal goalie stats because of the system they play and that benefits their goalies. Their goalies this year have a .931 and .933 save percentages...years before their goalie had a .947. year prior...936.....940...933. Teams matter.

 

[izlez]

Not accurate at all. Put Vasi on a poor team and his stats plummet. Look at Fleury a few months ago he had a .928 with Vegas wins a Vezina...goes to Chicago a few days later and now has a .886. Did Fleury all of a sudden stink? In the 90 days off between seasons did Fleury forget how to be the best goalie in world?

Thank goodness we have Goals Against Average to look at! That 1.98 to 3.96 really weeds out the overall ability of the two teams he played on and shows who he really is based on his own ability

 

[OldScool]

Thank goodness we have Goals Against Average to look at! That 1.98 to 3.96 really weeds out the overall ability of the two teams he played on and shows who he really is based on his own ability

You are making my point that Save % is only a small part of the overall picture.

 

[izlez]

You are making my point that Save % is only a small part of the overall picture.

I don't think anyone disagrees with you on that.

You just came in hot saying Save % is the worst goaltending stat in history. When it's pretty clearly superior to the other 3-4 "traditional" goalie stats. The vast majority of people would love additional context and advanced metrics to evaluate goalies rather than blindly point at Save percentage.

 

[OldScool]

I don't think anyone disagrees with you on that.

You just came in hot saying Save % is the worst goaltending stat in history. When it's pretty clearly superior to the other 3-4 "traditional" goalie stats. The vast majority of people would love additional context and advanced metrics to evaluate goalies rather than blindly point at Save percentage.

Izt is the worst stat and can be totally misleading. A tipped shot that deflects into the top corner where no human on planet could save penalizes a goalie...a weak on the ice dump on the ice a mite goalie saves helps a goalie. 5 on 3 goal counts against....breakaway goal....another goalie could lie down and save dump ins and have a better save percentage. Its at a minimum a misleading stat.

 

[izlez]

Izt is the worst stat and can be totally misleading. A tipped shot that deflects into the top corner where no human on planet could save penalizes a goalie...a weak on the ice dump on the ice a mite goalie saves helps a goalie. 5 on 3 goal counts against....breakaway goal....another goalie could lie down and save dump ins and have a better save percentage. Its at a minimum a misleading stat.

Agreed.
Now explain how Goals Against Average is not worse.

 

[Kairi Zaide]

Izt is the worst stat and can be totally misleading. A tipped shot that deflects into the top corner where no human on planet could save penalizes a goalie...a weak on the ice dump on the ice a mite goalie saves helps a goalie. 5 on 3 goal counts against....breakaway goal....another goalie could lie down and save dump ins and have a better save percentage. Its at a minimum a misleading stat.

Using outliers (and low samples) to argue the validity/meaningfulness of a statistic is never a good idea.

 

[MichaelFarrell]

Not accurate at all. Put Vasi on a poor team and his stats plummet. Look at Fleury a few months ago he had a .928 with Vegas wins a Vezina...goes to Chicago a few days later and now has a .886. Did Fleury all of a sudden stink? In the 90 days off between seasons did Fleury forget how to be the best goalie in world?

Cossa plays on the best team in the WHL so he has a lot of help. Look at the Everett Silvertips - they always have unreal goalie stats because of the system they play and that benefits their goalies. Their goalies this year have a .931 and .933 save percentages...years before their goalie had a .947. year prior...936.....940...933. Teams matter.

You are only half correct. While good defense can increase sv%, sv% is a great indicator of goalie performance.

Look at Hasek. You aren’t going to tell me that the year he won the Hart his .930 sv% was because Buffalo was a good team. That’s just one example.

Of course a stat that determines the percentage of saves you make to shot taken is going to be an indicator of how good a goalie is at keeping the puck out of the net.

 

[OldScool]

You are only half correct. While good defense can increase sv%, sv% is a great indicator of goalie performance.

Look at Hasek. You aren’t going to tell me that the year he won the Hart his .930 sv% was because Buffalo was a good team. That’s just one example.

Of course a stat that determines the percentage of saves you make to shot taken is going to be an indicator of how good a goalie is at keeping the puck out of the net.

Doesn't factor the quality of shot. A dump in isn't the same breakaway save.

 

[izlez]

Doesn't factor the quality of shot. A dump in isn't the same breakaway save.

If I go to the NHL.com stats page, I'm given 3 options for goalie stats. GAA, Save %, and shutouts.

Do these other two stats do a better job at differentiating between a dump in and a breakaway?

 

[nbwingsfan]

Not accurate at all. Put Vasi on a poor team and his stats plummet. Look at Fleury a few months ago he had a .928 with Vegas wins a Vezina...goes to Chicago a few days later and now has a .886. Did Fleury all of a sudden stink? In the 90 days off between seasons did Fleury forget how to be the best goalie in world?

Cossa plays on the best team in the WHL so he has a lot of help. Look at the Everett Silvertips - they always have unreal goalie stats because of the system they play and that benefits their goalies. Their goalies this year have a .931 and .933 save percentages...years before their goalie had a .947. year prior...936.....940...933. Teams matter.

So Bernier and Greiss didn’t actually play well last season, it was actually the amazing defensive play of Danny Dekeyser and Marc Staal that held them together?

Linus Ullmark was carried by the power house Buffalo Sabres?

OKKKK guy