Speculation: Free Agent Frenzy Part VI: Someone Get Gorton A Vesey Button.

[haveandare]

Toronto was a laughing stock. Are they anymore? Would you rather be in our position or Buffalos? Our position or Edmonton? You are kidding yourself if you say ours.

Or, I realize that the point is to win games as a team and not to have one or two good players who can't even force the team to win a single playoff round to save their lives.

You realize Buffalo had Eichel and Edmonton had McDavid last year correct? Edmonton finished one point above NYR and didn't make the playoffs. Buffalo finished dead last with 15 points less than NYR. They'll be similar this year.

The point is to win games not to win a contest over who has the best single player on their garbage team.

 

[FIRE DRURY]

The players mentioned as possible captains (Shattenkirk, MZA, Kreider) all could be traded in the next year or two under the right circumstances. That’s not captain material. For now, I’m going with alternates.

Nothing wrong with having Alternates. Not sure why some here feel it's imperative we nominate someone now.

Actually, I do know why.

Because it's the ****ing summer and we're running out of things to bitch about.

 

[Ola]

how is hayes and one of our 50 lefty d prospects for trouba not a thing that's happened yet?

Yeah, something should be done. Maybe they are keeping Troubs another year. Personally I think that is a mistake. Winnipeg fans are so proud, think they have an amazing team. How good where they really? Vegas didn’t stand much of a chance against Washington. Vegas took over against Winnipeg. Winnipeg can look darn impressive, but also a bit slow and heavy. I think they better prepare to be in for a Washington type of run at it. A Cup win could come early but they could also stand there in 10 years without won. Don’t quite see the window thing for them.

Size at RD, defensive ability there, PKing and so forth could — easily — be an issue for the coming 10 years. I don’t think anyone that are sceptical about Trouba are out to lunch, it’s not that. But you can’t contend by not making bad deals, it’s about making the right bad Ds. I think we can fill any other need on that blueline with what we have within. But that minute eating RD who is agile and can play against the best and has size — that one look really hard to fill.

Keep Shatty for a while, then trade him for a 1st and a prospect. Depth chart going forward:
Skjei-Trouba
Miller-Pionk
Hajak-Lundkvist
Lindgren-Keane
Gilmour-Ragnarsson

There are others. But without Trouba, it’s still a big big hole. Who is logging 22 minutes against the best of the other team at RD??

We have three awful contracts/items for 3 more years, Staal, Brendan Smith and Girardi’s buy-out. But after that we don’t have any big commitment that sucks. Like sure Trouba would be overpaid.

But like, what is the cost to try to fill that hole for the coming 10 years with bad and underwhelming commitments and struggles, poor support for others etc., draft picks wasted on kids that won’t arrive in time anyway and so forth.

Check Peter Diamonds theories on search costs in economics. It’s an underrated theory. Normally it’s much better to get something you need paying ‘too much’ because: the costs of getting something cheaper that don’t fit the requirements + cost of negative effects of having something that doesn’t fit the requirements > overpaying for something that fits the requirements.

 

[Do you want ants]

Toronto was a laughing stock. Are they anymore? Would you rather be in our position or Buffalos? Our position or Edmonton? You are kidding yourself if you say ours.

While Toronto is in a much better position, they still mah struggle to win a round or two in the playoffs with the possibility of going through Boston and Tampa for the foreseeable future.

Edmonton has some elite talent and not much else. They struggled last season and haven’t done much to get better.

Buffalo could be a team on the rise, they have their 1c and a potential 1d, but outside of that, not much else. Their goalie situation and forward/defensive depth is pretty weak.

If Hank plays like Hank we could finish higher than both buffalo and Edmonton. It’s not like either team is drastically better and more likely to win a cup (excluding Toronto from this part). They are two teams that have some high end talent at the top and not much else. We’ve seen plenty of teams struggle to accomplish much with 2-3 great players and below average players on the rest of the roster.

 

[Off Sides]

Have to have good management as well as good prospects to be a rebuilding team that has a chance of becoming good.

We'll see, but I don't think many are going to say that Buffalo, Edmonton, etc were managed very well. Some portion of that is likely due to their market conditions/locations, but then you have a Winnipeg who also faces many market challenges and seems to be building at least something that is going to be playoff competitive for a decent amount of time. I think Toronto could be put in that same category but until they changed the whole of management they were not very good.

It all leads me down the same road, Rangers are going to need some elite/near elite talents, they may not be drafting where they usually come from, having more picks as early as they can possibly be should be the overall strategy as that satisfies two of the main requirement for a rebuild to work, it would mean they had good management in order to get those picks, and some good prospects coming from those picks. Whether or not any of them turn out to be in that elite/near elite category, it's going to come down to some combination of luck, scouting, development as well as managerial ability to give the organization the chance to utilize all those avenues.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Or, I realize that the point is to win games as a team and not to have one or two good players who can't even force the team to win a single playoff round to save their lives.

The point is to win games not to win a contest over who has the best single player on their garbage team.

Thats a nice bumper sticker, but like I said, the teams that win Cups are the teams with elite talent. Having depth is a bonus, but its not the main requirement. Any analysis of best rebuilds should include the teams with the elite talents at the top. Thats the proven way to rebuild successfully in the NHL.

I'm well aware that those teams weren't good last year, although Buffalo has clearly gotten a lot better, so their team is different this year. But even with Edmonton, do you really think they aren't going to win a Cup in the next five years? They have the best player in the league. They really only have to put an average team around McDavid to be Cup contenders.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

While Toronto is in a much better position, they still mah struggle to win a round or two in the playoffs with the possibility of going through Boston and Tampa for the foreseeable future.

Edmonton has some elite talent and not much else. They struggled last season and haven’t done much to get better.

Buffalo could be a team on the rise, they have their 1c and a potential 1d, but outside of that, not much else. Their goalie situation and forward/defensive depth is pretty weak.

If Hank plays like Hank we could finish higher than both buffalo and Edmonton. It’s not like either team is drastically better and more likely to win a cup (excluding Toronto from this part). They are two teams that have some high end talent at the top and not much else. We’ve seen plenty of teams struggle to accomplish much with 2-3 great players and below average players on the rest of the roster.

You are completely missing the point. What does it matter if we finish above Edmonton or Buffalo? They have the needed ingredients to win a Stanley Cup. We don't. There is a formula that yields just about every Stanley Cup winner, and they have the main ingredients. They need to add much lesser ingredients to their team to be Cup contenders. We need to add elements that are almost impossible to acquire.

 

[Levitate]

But even with Edmonton, do you really think they aren't going to win a Cup in the next five years?

Yes. They have a long long long way to go to fix that team unless Chiarelli starts pulling some magic out of his ass. Their drafting has been abysmal, their trades have been horrible, and their FA signings have been ineffective.

Even if everything ends up coming together for them it's still going to be extremely hard to win a cup. Saying they're guaranteed to win a cup in the next 5 years probably something that could be defined as beyond bold.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Thats a nice bumper sticker, but like I said, the teams that win Cups are the teams with elite talent. Having depth is a bonus, but its not the main requirement. Any analysis of best rebuilds should include the teams with the elite talents at the top. Thats the proven way to rebuild successfully in the NHL.

I'm well aware that those teams weren't good last year, although Buffalo has clearly gotten a lot better, so their team is different this year. But even with Edmonton, do you really think they aren't going to win a Cup in the next five years? They have the best player in the league. They really only have to put an average team around McDavid to be Cup contenders.

If Chia is their GM for the next 5 years?

I don't.

 

[Deleted member 23124]

It's kind of funny that the Rangers had three "captain material" skaters on the roster in 14-15 (MSL, Yandle, Boyle) and now they only have one IMO, Andersson, and he is not nearly ready yet.

Zucc is too mischievous in his personality, which is great but I think the C would hamper that and by extension his play.

Boyle and Yandle "captain material"???????????????????????????

 

[kovazub94]

How could anyone seriously say we are closer than Buffalo? 1D and 1C. We have neither.

How could Vegas get to SCF ahead of LA, San Jose, Nashville or Jets (forget Colorado etc)?

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Yes. They have a long long long way to go to fix that team unless Chiarelli starts pulling some magic out of his ass. Their drafting has been abysmal, their trades have been horrible, and their FA signings have been ineffective.

Even if everything ends up coming together for them it's still going to be extremely hard to win a cup. Saying they're guaranteed to win a cup in the next 5 years probably something that could be defined as beyond bold.

I feel like a lot of people just mention Chiarelli to ignore from their roster. Chiarelli is bad, so what? Were those Penguin teams so well built? No, they were terribly built. Elite talent won them Cups. A lot of people forget to mention that before last year they were a game away from the West Finals.

They definitely have some areas to improve. Last year their goaltending sucked. Talbot had the worst season of his career. He should rebound. And while they do need to improve their wingers, they have a number of good winger prospects like Puljujarvi, Yamamoto, Maksimov, Benson, Safin.

They have much less to improve on than us. They need a good goaltender to rebound from the worst season of his career, and they need a very good group of winger prospects to yield 3-4 top 9 wingers. Its not that much to ask. We need to acquire at least an elite forward and an elite defensemen. Thats before we consider how the rest of the roster develops. We might need more.

 

[Levitate]

That all said, PB is right that the Rangers really have to find some way to acquire an elite talent. Have some prospect exceed all expectations in their development, suck bad enough this year to get a top pick, etc. They could be building a good core right now but one way or another that elite piece needs to be added.

 

[Deleted member 23124]

hayes and Skjei would be crazy so no of course not. Im just surprised there hasn't been a much bigger demand for Kevin Hayes out there. Reports are he was dangled and then nothing. just very surprised Gorton couldn't get a really good offer for him.

There's no evidence that there wasn't/isn't a bigger demand. Most likely, Gorts has decided to keep 2 experienced centers until he knows what the others can do.

I still don't understand why people are suddenly in such a big rush to get rid of Hayes.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

If Chia is their GM for the next 5 years?

I don't.

Rutherford did a terrible job of building the Pittsburgh teams that won two Stanley Cups for him. Crosby and Malkin didn't need help.

 

[Levitate]

I feel like a lot of people just mention Chiarelli to ignore from their roster. Chiarelli is bad, so what? Were those Penguin teams so well built? No, they were terribly built. Elite talent won them Cups. A lot of people forget to mention that before last year they were a game away from the West Finals.

A game away from getting out of the second round isn't THAT impressive. Also many people said they were punching above their weight that season and expected a letdown.

And it definitely important to consider Chiarelli and the job he's done because so far his moves have been something that has been preventing them from being better.

That said you're kind of dancing around the fact that you asserted that they will win a cup in the next 5 years. Could they be a contender in the next 5 years? Sure, but they're guaranteed nothing.

 

[Levitate]

Rutherford did a terrible job of building the Pittsburgh teams that won two Stanley Cups for him. Crosby and Malkin didn't need help.

?

For years after their first cup win, the Pens couldn't get back over the hump despite having Crosby and Malkin precisely because their GM couldn't put a decent team around them...they were missing the parts that they needed.

Rutherford got a coach that worked well with the team and brought in Kessel, some real solid depth guys like Hagelin, and ultimately built a better support around Crosby and Malkin than they'd had for years before that. And yeah they won.

Yes you don't have to make the perfect roster when you have some superstars to take up the slack but the Pens definitely needed at least some decent support for those guys to do it and ultimately that's where Chiarelli has been failing so far when it comes to the Oilers

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

Boyle and Yandle "captain material"???????????????????????????

I don’t see why not

 

[nrf83]

A good majority of the people here have a skewed view of Shattenkirk. They believe he is a sure fire #1 RD. He is a PP specialist/2nd pair D at best. Shattenkirk made a statement about wanting to play in all situations. He shows up to play in horrible shape. Gets injured in camp. He wasn’t very good last season.

Just got back from my club were I happened to run into Kevin. He looks in fantastic shape; down to 202 from 207 last year, but he is ripped. Skating freely w no pain and he was on his way to Prentiss for his PM worlout. Just got married and he is in great state of mind w NYR additions and of course his old coach Quinn. He wants to be a mentor to the young D and I think he is going to have a good year. I wish people wouldn't rag on him, very tough situation last year w big contract and playing for his hometown team. I really thought he tried to do to much, and instead he did not let his natural talent come out. I know he's a pro, but sometimes circumstances determine a different outcome.

 

[Deleted member 23124]

The players mentioned as possible captains (Shattenkirk, MZA, Kreider) all could be traded in the next year or two under the right circumstances. That’s not captain material. For now, I’m going with alternates.

Considering how Rangers seem to shed Captains, they are perfect candidates.

 

[haveandare]

Thats a nice bumper sticker, but like I said, the teams that win Cups are the teams with elite talent. Having depth is a bonus, but its not the main requirement. Any analysis of best rebuilds should include the teams with the elite talents at the top. Thats the proven way to rebuild successfully in the NHL.

I'm well aware that those teams weren't good last year, although Buffalo has clearly gotten a lot better, so their team is different this year. But even with Edmonton, do you really think they aren't going to win a Cup in the next five years? They have the best player in the league. They really only have to put an average team around McDavid to be Cup contenders.

It's actually a description of reality.

The question was are we better off than teams like Buffalo and Edmonton - I'd argue yes we are since they've had their elite players for years and have made less than nothing of themselves over that time. NYR has accomplished more without an elite player than either of those teams has with an elite player - you can literally add their accomplishments with Eichel and McDavid together and weigh them against just NYR without any elite players and NYR have accomplished tons more. Their ELCs are totally burned and they barely have a handful of playoff games to show for it between both teams. Again, the point is to win games and eventually a championship, not to waste an elite player's career and call that a success.

Yes, I absolutely think Edmonton is unlikely to win a cup in the next 5 years. They've had McDavid for multiple years now and have done literally nothing of merit as a team. What do you think is going to suddenly change to catapult them to a cup? Especially now that their best players are going to be paid very handsomely.

 

[Deleted member 23124]

I don’t see why not

I don't see why....Neither of them should have been here in the first place, much less captain.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

A game away from getting out of the second round isn't THAT impressive. Also many people said they were punching above their weight that season and expected a letdown.

And it definitely important to consider Chiarelli and the job he's done because so far his moves have been something that has been preventing them from being better.

That said you're kind of dancing around the fact that you asserted that they will win a cup in the next 5 years. Could they be a contender in the next 5 years? Sure, but they're guaranteed nothing.

McDavid has played 3 years. You tried answering whether they will win a Stanley Cup in the next five years. You are saying McDavid will not win a Stanley Cup in his first 8 years. I think thats unrealistic to expect.

Of course they could be better. Thats not the point. The point is that Edmonton could continue to make dumb moves, and still win a Stanley Cup or two with McDavid. If they made better moves, they might've been able to win 4-5 due to picking 1OA or early so many years. Regardless, they still are in a better position to win a Stanley Cup than us.

 

[Zibanejbread]

...maybe Chytil and Kravtsov become "elite"?

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

?

For years after their first cup win, the Pens couldn't get back over the hump despite having Crosby and Malkin precisely because their GM couldn't put a decent team around them...they were missing the parts that they needed.

Rutherford got a coach that worked well with the team and brought in Kessel, some real solid depth guys like Hagelin, and ultimately built a better support around Crosby and Malkin than they'd had for years before that. And yeah they won.

Yes you don't have to make the perfect roster when you have some superstars to take up the slack but the Pens definitely needed at least some decent support for those guys to do it and ultimately that's where Chiarelli has been failing so far when it comes to the Oilers

Thats a bunch of rubbish. They had no defensive depth, and if I'm remembering correctly, Letang got injured. Their top defensemen were Dumoulin and Daley. They won the Cup in spite of their lack of defensive depth and very average forward depth. Sheary, Rust, Guentzel would be 2nd/3rd line players on a team like the Rangers. Put them with Crosby and Malkin, and they score a lot of points. That's the same with McDavid, which is why they don't even need to have top-flight wingers.