Proposal: Free agency edition Trade Rumours/Proposals [MOD - Stay on Topic] 5

[DueDiligence]

Let me know if you have questions regarding this. I think the judgements on individual players are being cloud because the team sucks as a whole. External fans do the same, everyone in Ottawa must suck because lol look at the team record!

Well the stats you list for TC are 2 years old. Got any up to date ones?
Regardless the point I was making is that although Chabot and Batherson are good players they are not untouchable as they don't bring anything really special to the table. If a good deal can be made then the Sens do it as the team with its present configuration isn't working.

 

[Crosside]

Lets say STL win the lottery and there are no issues with NTC etc. Would you trade:

Tkachuk + Brannstrom + BOS 1st for Celebrini + Parayko (maybe with some retention)

or

Tkachuk + Norris + Brannstrom + BOS 1st -> Celebrini + Parayko + Thomas

Delete

 

[Joeyjoejoe]

Friedman on 32 Thoughts Podcast:

"The players went to management and said that this organization is too crazy, there was too much drama. Everything that management has done was to remove the drama. They held on to Smith longer than I think some of other teams might have because they respected the players wishes on that."

"I am wondering if NOW what the organization is saying, is that if these players are too comfortable."

"What I see happening in Ottawa is that they think their guys are too comfortable"

"I think they want to send a lightning bolt through their roster, and they want to see how their players react to it."

 

[BondraTime]

The team is full of prima donna's

They need to have a lightning bot shoved down, and it needs to break up the bro culture

You're professional hockey players, what's happening in the ice is what matters, not vibes

 

[Micklebot]

Friedman on 32 Thoughts Podcast:

"The players went to management and said that this organization is too crazy, there was too much drama. Everything that management has done was to remove the drama. They held on to Smith longer than I think some of other teams might have because they respected the players wishes on that."

"I am wondering if NOW what the organization is saying, is that if these players are too comfortable."

"What I see happening in Ottawa is that they think their guys are too comfortable"

"I think they want to send a lightning bolt through their roster, and they want to see how their players react to it."

Well, can't really blame the players for thinking there was too much drama,

Formenton excommunicated based on his perceived connection to HC incident

Pinto receives massive suspension for unnamed gambling related incident

Team fined a 1rd pick and Dorion canned for Dadonov trade scandal

Players were probably hoping with new ownership, they could just focus on Hockey and not have to deal with that kind of noise. That's not to say a coach getting fired due to team underperforming falls into that same category of drama, but I don't blame management for trying to find some stability and hoping as the drama fades, performance might improve.

 

[Senator Stanley]

I can understand making a trade to send a message to the locker room, but you also don't want to make a trade that you'll regret (e.g. no sane manager is trading Tkachuk/Stutzle/Sanderson to send a short-term message). You don't want to cut too deep.

Looking around the locker room, I could see Batherson being the guy they sacrifice. He's part of that younger crew, he's also been around a while, he probably gets you something decent back in a trade, and a replacement scoring winger is easier to find than a replacement top 4 defenceman or top 3 centre.

 

[Mark Stones Spleen]

The team is full of prima donna's

They need to have a lightning bot shoved down, and it needs to break up the bro culture

You're professional hockey players, what's happening in the ice is what matters, not vibes

We've been prioritizing character for how many years now, and all we have is a team full of babies.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

Norris would be the guy to trade, but I'm not confident there could be a real market for him with his contract. Even if a team liked him enough to overlook the risk of injuries, and give up major assets, the cap hit and term would be a major roadblock to moving him in season.

To accomplish the task of sending a lightning bolt through the room, it has to be one of the young guys who has been there for years. Not one of the old guys. Not Chychrun, because similar to Debrincat moving it's not going to send that message to the group to move out a guy who has been on the team for a year.

Batherson is the only player who fits that profile and might be moveable for big value. Everybody else has too big of a cap hit or might be one of the untouchable players.

If they do move one of the untouchable players, it'll be Stutzle in a Subban for Weber type deal, and everybody will lose their mind. I'm not saying I even remotely think it will happen, obviously, it would be ridiculous.

 

[GCK]

The roster shakeup needs to be a core piece.

Sanderson and Stu aren’t going anywhere.

Tkachuk isn’t being moved unless he requests a trade.

That leaves 1 of Norris, Batherson or Chabot.

We have Chychrun to replace Chabot and Greig/Pinto to replace Norris. Batherson while just a point producing winger has no replacement inside the org.

So my guess is Chabot or Norris is moved before July 1st to shake things up.

 

[Sens Vader]

move Chabot

highest cost most expendable piece of the core and should get a good return

that would be a major shake-up

I am not trading Norris are any center at this point, makes no sense to me.

in saying that, they need to do the regular clean-up with expiring deals first

 

[HSF]

I think it is a bit early to shake up the core. Trading Chabby or Norris is dangerous especially without a replacement in place. People keep saying that we have Chychrun (we don't until he is signed) and Sandy but we still have a gapping hole in our top 4 if Chabby is gone. Same with Norris. I am not a huge fan of Norris but we have yet to see if Pinto or Greig can hold down the 2nd/3rd line center spots and Norris is flat out better than both those guys when healthy.

I would also wait and see what happens with the coaching staff and let them work with these guys

People are a bit too trigger happy here. The team could look pretty different by just replacing Tarasenko and one of the RD out for better or better fit players

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

The roster shakeup needs to be a core piece.

Sanderson and Stu aren’t going anywhere.

Tkachuk isn’t being moved unless he requests a trade.

That leaves 1 of Norris, Batherson or Chabot.

We have Chychrun to replace Chabot and Greig/Pinto to replace Norris. Batherson while just a point producing winger has no replacement inside the org.

So my guess is Chabot or Norris is moved before July 1st to shake things up.

They can't get in a situation where they move Chabot before clarifying whether Chychrun will stay. If Chychrun doesn't want to re-sign with what appears to be a shit-show, they will lose two top 2-4 defensemen. If Chychrun does want to sign, Chabot being moved gives him too much leverage.

I also think the problem with this team is more centred around the buy-in of the forwards.

I think it will be Batherson because Norris would be difficult to move in season. If it is Norris, I would imagine it will be a hockey trade for a veteran forward with money and term.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

We do not win Chabot or Norris trades they don't have much value because of contract and injuries and so we would be selling low.

Brady has inflated value because he is a unicorn. GMs might even overpay.

All three players are similar level players. 2 bring you nothing 1 brings you riches.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

I think it is a bit early to shake up the core. Trading Chabby or Norris is dangerous especially without a replacement in place. People keep saying that we have Chychrun (we don't until he is signed) and Sandy but we still have a gapping hole in our top 4 if Chabby is gone. Same with Norris. I am not a huge fan of Norris but we have yet to see if Pinto or Greig can hold down the 2nd/3rd line center spots and Norris is flat out better than both those guys when healthy.

I would also wait and see what happens with the coaching staff and let them work with these guys

People are a bit too trigger happy here. The team could look pretty different by just replacing Tarasenko and one of the RD out for better or better fit players

It is not too early. If anything, they are racing against the clock to fix this. July 1st 2025 is the chokepoint where they need to figure this out by.

That might be why the management structure was clarified when it was, instead of waiting for the offseason. They have major work to do leading into the TDL that they probably couldn't imagine having to do when the season started.

Tkachuk NMC kicks in July 1st 2025. Giroux and Chychrun are both UFAs on that date.

I am not saying Tkachuk is going to ask for a trade and we're going to relocate the team to Houston. I'm just pointing out that there is a very real possibility based on basic pattern recognition that if a superstar player has been stuck on a failing team for 8 or whatever years, and their NMC is coming in, both sides might look to move on before that NMC kicks in and the team can no longer control the return if the player wants out at a later date.

 

[Dan Patrick]

i think the problem is going to be getting good value out of Chabot and Norris. With their term if a top 10 pick and/or a high end RD prospect isn’t coming back then there’s no point.

 

[HSF]

It is not too early. If anything, they are racing against the clock to fix this. July 1st 2025 is the chokepoint where they need to figure this out by.

That might be why the management structure was clarified when it was, instead of waiting for the offseason. They have major work to do leading into the TDL that they probably couldn't imagine having to do when the season started.

Tkachuk NMC kicks in July 1st 2025. Giroux and Chychrun are both UFAs on that date.

I am not saying Tkachuk is going to ask for a trade and we're going to relocate the team to Houston. I'm just pointing out that there is a very real possibility based on basic pattern recognition that if a superstar player has been stuck on a failing team for 8 or whatever years, and their NMC is coming in, both sides might look to move on before that NMC kicks in and the team can no longer control the return if the player wants out at a later date.

you aren't moving any big ticket players till the offseason

right now is too early to move a core piece the team will also let Martin and Alfie evaluate what they have

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

i think the problem is going to be getting good value out of Chabot and Norris. With their term if a top 10 pick and/or a high end RD prospect isn’t coming back then there’s no point.

This is why I think it will be Batherson, Chychrun, and Joseph.

Unless a perfect hockey trade comes, like a less acrimonious version of Subban/Weber or Hall/Larsson, it will be difficult to move players with huge cap hits and recent injury concerns and also get back a big return.

In a perfect homerun scenario, Batherson, Chychrun, Joseph, and Tarasenko nets the team 2-4 first round picks or equivalent value prospects, and multiple 2nd+3rd round picks. It also would add to the cap flexibility next season. Then Staios can go into the offseason and use that cap flexibility and those picks to re-tool the roster.

People will say "oh trade Batherson for a 1st so that you can trade the 1st for another Batherson, what's the point?" - The point is that the current norms of the group are broken and the only way to fix that without a total teardown is to change up as much of the roster as possible and hope that whoever they bring in both on the staff front and on the ice can help re-tool the roster as a group with a culture and mindset that can lead to wins.

It's not so much about who they move, because they won't have complete control over who teams will take. It's about moving enough guys so that they can go into next season with it feeling like a completely different group, and a completely changed organization.

 

[HSF]

This is why I think it will be Batherson, Chychrun, and Joseph.

Unless a perfect hockey trade comes, like a less acrimonious version of Subban/Weber or Hall/Larsson, it will be difficult to move players with huge cap hits and recent injury concerns and also get back a big return.

In a perfect homerun scenario, Batherson, Chychrun, Joseph, and Tarasenko nets the team 2-4 first round picks or equivalent value prospects, and multiple 2nd+3rd round picks. It also would add to the cap flexibility next season. Then Staios can go into the offseason and use that cap flexibility and those picks to re-tool the roster.

People will say "oh trade Batherson for a 1st so that you can trade the 1st for another Batherson, what's the point?" - The point is that the current norms of the group are broken and the only way to fix that without a total teardown is to change up as much of the roster as possible and hope that whoever they bring in both on the staff front and on the ice can help re-tool the roster as a group with a culture and mindset that can lead to wins.

It's not so much about who they move, because they won't have complete control over who teams will take. It's about moving enough guys so that they can go into next season with it feeling like a completely different group, and a completely changed organization.

Nah moving none of those guys will actually help us. Chychrun would return a pick. Batherson might return a prospect and Joseph a pick.

Joseph is what we need more of

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

you aren't moving any big ticket players till the offseason

right now is too early to move a core piece the team will also let Martin and Alfie evaluate what they have

It's not too early.

It's a sellers market at the TDL.

It's a buyers market in the offseason.

You move as many pieces as you can get major returns for right now. Then you go in the offseason and you buy at the draft/July 1st.

They also are going to get back roster players because of the nature of how the cap works. Like how Vancouver had to take back Beauvillier in the Horvat deal. It gives them a chance to audition whoever comes back down the stretch to see if there is any value to keeping them. Additionally, it makes room to call up players and give them extended looks in preparation for next season.

In a perfect world, they would make some hockey trades at the TDL and get their new core pieces so that there is time for them to mesh. Next season is going to be difficult if they have a big change over of 5-10 different roster spots. I don't know if that will be possible.

 

[HSF]

It's not too early.

It's a sellers market at the TDL.

It's a buyers market in the offseason.

You move as many pieces as you can get major returns for right now. Then you go in the offseason and you buy at the draft/July 1st.

They also are going to get back roster players because of the nature of how the cap works. Like how Vancouver had to take back Beauvillier in the Horvat deal. It gives them a chance to audition whoever comes back down the stretch to see if there is any value to keeping them. Additionally, it makes room to call up players and give them extended looks in preparation for next season.

In a perfect world, they would make some hockey trades at the TDL and get their new core pieces so that there is time for them to mesh. Next season is going to be difficult if they have a big change over of 5-10 different roster spots. I don't know if that will be possible.

no one is taking on a multi million dollar player with term at the deadline

Horvat didnt have a contract when traded

you also limit your trade partners if you do it at the TDL

 

[BondraTime]

If new management are moving core pieces to rebuild/assemble their own team this season, it's going to be Chychrun or Batherson who is moved. Batherson would be very, very highly sought after, and Chych only has a year remaining.

Norris is the guy who "should" be moved, to get out of the contract, but I am not sure there would be any market.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

Nah moving none of those guys will actually help us. Chychrun would return a pick. Batherson might return a prospect and Joseph a pick.

Joseph is what we need more of

The idea is to execute a re-tool. They have no real trade-able assets to do that because Dorion stripped the team of draft picks and Melnyk's limitations didn't allow the team to "manage assets" (shoutout Hale) appropriately during the rebuild.

If they trade players for futures, it won't be to use those picks to draft players. It will be to use those picks and cap as currency to re-tool the team.

Is it possible that they would rather move Chabot and Norris over Chychrun, and Batherson? Maybe. But they may not have a choice. Chychrun and Batherson will be move-able due to their cap hits, they will both get back picks and prospects which can be used to execute a re-tool. Chabot and Norris might be move-able, but not without taking back a player they don't want to take back, or not without getting a minimal return.

The point isn't about any one individual player. They have a short window here they need to focus on adding to their cap flexibility for next offseason, gaining assets to use in trades next off season, and moving out enough big names to allow them to change the losing culture of the team. Outside of the 2-3 untouchables, or extremes like if the team feels a specific player is a cancer in the room and has to go, it isn't about whether one player or another is the slightly better fit or slightly better player. It's about looking at the big picture and setting the team up to re-tool in the summer. Which requires moving out whoever can get the team the most assets and cap flexibility.

It's unlikely they will find hockey trades right now for the players they want to move, which is why they will probably have to move players for currency in the form of picks+prospects, and then make additional trades to bring in their replacements using that currency to acquire them.

If new management are moving core pieces to rebuild/assemble their own team this season, it's going to be Chychrun or Batherson who is moved. Batherson would be very, very highly sought after, and Chych only has a year remaining.

Norris is the guy who "should" be moved, to get out of the contract, but I am not sure there would be any market.

Thank you for saying that for me in less than 10 paragraphs.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

no one is taking on a multi million dollar player with term at the deadline

Horvat didnt have a contract when traded

you also limit your trade partners if you do it at the TDL

Horvat came with an extension.

Meier and Chychrun were both moved last year with 2-3 years of term.

Toffoli was moved with term.

Multiple teams can fit in Batherson and Chychrun if Ottawa works with them and takes back a pending UFA.

 

[HSF]

Horvat came with an extension.

Meier and Chychrun were both moved last year with 2-3 years of term.

Toffoli was moved with term.

Multiple teams can fit in Batherson and Chychrun if Ottawa works with them and takes back a pending UFA.

Horvat didnt come with an extension he signed after he was an Islander which means the Islanders negotiated the contract on their term. I think that is a big difference. Additonally the return was future heavy which I don't think helps Ottawa.

Chychrun and Meier did not have significant salaries when traded. Norris has 6 more years at 8mill

I am talking about significant core peices. Yes you can move Chychrun and Batherson but that's not shaking up the core

 

[BondraTime]

The fact is, and it's a very, very shitty one, that Dorion handcuffed this team so incredibly bad, it's going to take a lot of gymnastics to make moves that new owners and GM's would like to do.

They have no 1st's from the past 3 drafts, they have lost one of the next 3, they have zero prospects who are going to be targeted or looked at for an impact player or move.

They have very, very few assets outside the main roster. It's essentially non-existent. Which is utterly insane with finishing in the bottom ~10 for the past decade.

It's going to take trading guys with value who aren't deeply entrenched in the core, which essentially leaves Batherson, Chychrun and Zub, to get the needed assets to make the moves that Staios likely wants to.

For tradeable assts to get NHL talent, the Sens essentially have:
30th 2024
2 2nds over the next 3 drafts
Mid level prospects

That's about it. That's not going to cut it, and is extremely troubling with where the Sens are.