Proposal: Free agency edition Trade Rumours/Proposals [MOD - Stay on Topic] 5

[Hale The Villain]

Why does every one assume that we need to pay to get rid of a player like Joseph? And, even further, assume that we have to pay dearly to do so?

Because that's what has been widely reported.

And obviously no team is taking on Joseph's contract for free when there's almost no teams with cap space right now and how bad of a position Dorion has put us in.

It'd be extremely stupid to package a good prospect or pick with Joseph when we could likely just deal Kubalik, but that seems to be the most likely scenario.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

Why does every one assume that we need to pay to get rid of a player like Joseph? And, even further, assume that we have to pay dearly to do so?

The pattern over the last few year is that it is nearly impossible to get rid of good players with term during the off season. Look at all the trades that have taken place.

Things loosen up at the trade deadline because teams are motivated to add, and the cap loosens up a bit. There have been a few eyebrow raising cases where players like Kapanen and Granlund who were thought to be unmovable were moved at the deadline. We haven't seen that happen early in the season or in the off season.

Not to mention, it has been reported by numerous reliable insiders that it will take a 1st round equivalent asset as a sweetener. Bruce Garrioch reported that the Flyers asked for Ridly Greig.

 

[BankStreetParade]

I guess everyone is assuming all the insiders are correct.

Because that's what has been widely reported.

And obviously no team is taking on Joseph's contract for free when there's almost no teams with cap space right now and how bad of a position Dorion has put us in.

It'd be extremely stupid to package a good prospect or pick with Joseph when we could likely just deal Kubalik, but that seems to be the most likely scenario.

The pattern over the last few year is that it is nearly impossible to get rid of good players with term during the off season. Look at all the trades that have taken place.

Things loosen up at the trade deadline because teams are motivated to add, and the cap loosens up a bit. There have been a few eyebrow raising cases where players like Kapanen and Granlund who were thought to be unmovable were moved at the deadline. We haven't seen that happen early in the season or in the off season.

Not to mention, it has been reported by numerous reliable insiders that it will take a 1st round equivalent asset as a sweetener. Bruce Garrioch reported that the Flyers asked for Ridly Greig.

They could have bought him out in the last window and spent no assets except some cash. His buyout would have been a 750K cap hit for the first couple of years, equating to a $2.2M savings.

Why would they decline that option to pay a 1RP a month later?

 

[Hale The Villain]

They could have bought him out in the last window and spent no assets except some cash. His buyout would have been a 750K cap hit for the first couple of years, equating to a $2.2M savings.

Why would they decline that option to pay a 1RP a month later?

Because they aren't going to pay a 1st to dump him. That's madness and it's not going to happen.

But I think Jarventie/Boucher or a 2nd is a cost they'd be willing to pay. Maybe with some slight retention or another mid pick.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Because they aren't going to pay a 1st to dump him. That's madness and it's not going to happen.

But I think Jarventie/Boucher or a 2nd is a cost they'd be willing to pay. Maybe with some slight retention or another mid pick.

But they had the buyout option available for nothing more than cash. If they intended on trading him, and adding on sweeteners to do so, then why didn't they just make the obvious move?

 

[Dionysus]

Get a Kubalik trade going. Luxury depth scoring. Have plenty of guys who can play PP2, especially left shots. Can be replaced by Smejkal or Grieg moving to LW.

 

[Hale The Villain]

But they had the buyout option available for nothing more than cash. If they intended on trading him, and adding on sweeteners to do so, then why didn't they just make the obvious move?

Maybe they didn't want to add a cap penalty for the next 6 years when he's only overpaid by 1M or so at most?

Buying Joseph out was definitely not the most obvious move. If they weren't going to entertain trading Kubalik (the actual obvious move) they should have dealt Joseph away before signing Tarasenko.

Now they have zero leverage and that's why a team like Philly can try to extort us with the demand of a 1st or a good prospect + more.

 

[ChurchOfAlfie]

Get a Kubalik trade going. Luxury depth scoring. Have plenty of guys who can play PP2, especially left shots. Can be replaced by Smejkal or Grieg moving to LW.

This just seems like the most logical solution. I pray that's where it ends.

 

[Psycroptic86]

Kubalik is the guy to trade. Completely invisible all 3 games now. Plenty of scoring depth as of now and when Norris and Pinto are back there will be no room for him on the PP.

 

[branch]

So where are we trading Kubalik to

 

[StoicSensFan]

Can't trade Kubalik if he's invisible

I'd still trade MJ, sell high

 

[Joeyjoejoe]

So where are we trading Kubalik to

San Jose for Mike Hoffman.

 

[Ouroboros]

What sort of sweetener would you be comfortable adding to dump Kubalik?

 

[IranCondraAffair]

I think we should just wait it out for the first 15 games. Eventually a team with playoff aspirations will have LTIR room for Kubalik.

 

[branch]

What sort of sweetener would you be comfortable adding to dump Kubalik?

2 second round picks

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

They could have bought him out in the last window and spent no assets except some cash. His buyout would have been a 750K cap hit for the first couple of years, equating to a $2.2M savings.

Why would they decline that option to pay a 1RP a month later?

His buyout was higher than that because he has a backloaded contract, so the Senators have to pay back the 500k they originally saved against the cap. Capfriendly's calculator doesn't allow for archived buyouts, but it would be a bit above 1M a year. Additionally, you can add the replacement cost of 775k+ because Joseph is projected to play in the NHL as one of the skaters. So in theory, a buyout would have saved very little money.

You're also operating under the false idea that there was adequate planning around the cap throughout the offseason, or whatever plans or backup plans they had didn't completely fall apart. Something lead to the cap being completely mismanaged.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

What sort of sweetener would you be comfortable adding to dump Kubalik?

If Norris is back on Wednesday and feels okay, I would bury both Kubalik and Brannstrom to get 2.25M in cap back. Use that to sign Pinto. Roll with zero healthy scratches, and play short-handed if needed.

Neither Brannstrom or Kubalik would be claimed, but if either are, that's a good thing, not a bad thing. The point isn't for someone to claim them, it's to send down two players who make in excess of the 1.125M buried cap cutoff in order to accumulate enough cap to cover Pinto.

Out of the 14 or so players who could make way for Pinto's 2M via LTIR (including Pinto himself once signed), someone will get hurt eventually and end up on LTIR for a significant time. You don't hope for injuries, but the Senators have almost two months before they have to worry about not having scratches. Of course, playing short-handed is a problem, but it doesn't become a possible season crippling problem until the December road trip. They have the most forgiving early schedule for completely botching the salary cap because so many games are at home or in the East.

 

[Adele Dazeem]

A lot of teams are icing half AHL squads out there. I refuse to believe there is no market for Kubalik or Joseph.
Kubalik should net us a 2nd, or at least a 3rd + 5th.
Yes, teams know Ottawa is in a pickle, but there is such a thing as keeping positive relationships within the 32 people who do this line of work.

 

[Slippy]

A lot of teams are icing half AHL squads out there. I refuse to believe there is no market for Kubalik or Joseph.
Kubalik should net us a 2nd, or at least a 3rd + 5th.
Yes, teams know Ottawa is in a pickle, but there is such a thing as keeping positive relationships within the 32 people who do this line of work.

Kubalik should have positive value and if Joseph continues to play well so will he. Starting to think this has been Dorion's pl...no plan wouldn't be the right word...hope all along

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

A lot of teams are icing half AHL squads out there. I refuse to believe there is no market for Kubalik or Joseph.
Kubalik should net us a 2nd, or at least a 3rd + 5th.
Yes, teams know Ottawa is in a pickle, but there is such a thing as keeping positive relationships within the 32 people who do this line of work.

Teams are icing AHL squads because they don't have cap or because they are one of the few rebuilding budget teams. Ottawa cannot take back cap in a Kubalik trade.

People need to review all the big trades from the last two offseasons. It doesn't matter if someone is a good player. Reilly Smith was a near 30 goal scorer and an integral piece on the Stanley Cup winning team. He was traded for a 3rd round pick. That was way back in June when the market to move players was considerably more flexible than it is now.

Right now, nobody has cap and the teams that do have cap are going to place a high price on using it because it is such a valuable asset that comes with a large opportunity cost. They will get a much better return on the cap than giving up a pick to get Kubalik or Brannstrom.

If it was as easy as getting a 2nd round pick for Kubalik, it would be done by now. That would have been a home run to pad the Debrincat return with a 2nd round pick and getting Tarasenko as a UFA.

Unless there was a major injury to another team, both Brannstrom and Kubalik would probably clear waivers. It wouldn't surprise me if one or both end up on waivers sometime soon. Joseph is playing too well to trade right now. If the return of Norris is a success, they need to find another way to open up cap space for Pinto.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

There are maybe 5 or less teams with 3M in cap space who aren't budget teams. This is all info that is out there. It is why the Senators are in such a tough spot. If you guys think Joseph with 3 years of term is an easy move, or even Kubalik or Brannstrom, you have unrealistic expectations.

As we get closer to the deadline, there would probably be a market for at least Kubalik and definitely Brannstrom. At least, that is what happened last year. The cap gets a bit more flexible and teams with cap have no benefit to holding on to it beyond the trade deadline, so they use it. That's still months away though.

 

[Sun God Nika]

wild how a small sample size completely changes the discussion.

before the season. "Can't trade Kubalik, he is essential depth and makes the top 9 lethal. Joseph gotta go. Pack the first."

3 games later. "Kubalik is invisible, Joseph is untouchable."

don't get me wrong i am on team trade Kubalik just to get Pinto under. but it would still be nice if we can move a guy like Branny so we can have. stacked top 9 forward group when healthy.

 

[Dionysus]

Kubalik should have positive value and if Joseph continues to play well so will he. Starting to think this has been Dorion's pl...no plan wouldn't be the right word...hope all along

He should, if he was traded in the summer. Now he will not unfortunately. Teams know the Sens are in a bind, and will want to be paid to help them out.

 

[Sun God Nika]

He should, if he was traded in the summer. Now he will not unfortunately. Teams know the Sens are in a bind, and will want to be paid to help them out.

all it takes is for two+ teams to want him. Then it becomes more about getting him over the other bidder. With his cap hit and scoring pedigree there is definitely going to be a market for him. I don't think the sens have genuinely explored trading him yet tho.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

It wouldn't surprise me if Detroit shopped Kubalik in the summer, there was no market for him, and Yzerman said Dorion had to take him.

He's not a 2.5M player in the current anarchy that is today's salary cap. Sens were probably fine taking him because:
1) They didn't have a choice, they needed to work with Detroit to get a return on Debrincat.
2) They may have thought they were out on Tarasenko. So they needed scoring depth to replace Debrincat.
3) They didn't have a choice.

Doesn't mean he is a bad player, but people think back to him scoring 30 goals 5 years ago. If he was a UFA this offseason, he likely would have signed somewhere for 1M-1.5M. He's a 3rd line goal scorer/PP guy who scored goals playing minutes on rebuilding teams against easier competition. Which doesn't mean he isn't a good or useful player, but a lot of people took the Bruce Garrioch puff pieces to heart and seemed to expect a top 6 forward.

There is a reason Chicago didn't qualify him, and he only got 2.5M x 2 1 year removed from a 30 goal season. We're now a few more years removed from that season, the cap hasn't gone up much, and he hasn't done anything to improve his value. He would clear waivers right now, and it's not because he is a bad player, it's just bad timing with the (near) flat cap and how his contract relates to that.