Proposal: Free agency edition Trade Rumours/Proposals [MOD - Stay on Topic] 5

[frightenedinmatenum2]

I don't think it is realistic to assume Forsberg's cap hit will be off the roster.

If he has a good season, they will almost certainly keep him.

If he has a bad season or an up and down season like last year, he will be difficult to trade without retaining or taking back a contract.

It's more realistic to project that we will spend what we are currently spending on goalies or close to it.

 

[bert]

Not my choice personally, but I do like the player. Too much uncertainty at a time I'd rather not see more added to the pile. And I assume it's not a deal that would go through anytime soon, so 2 years of control is unlikely to be accurate imo. More like a year and a matter of months, but then the questions, distraction and anxiety start immediately upon his arrival.

There's no rush imo, we can address any cap issues next summer or even later.

The amount of time they have control is not debatable. It's 2 years, Ottawa needs to make a decision on Chabot before next summer that's when his NTC. Kicks in. There is absolutely a rush this team has to find a solution to its cap issues in the next month. Once Chabot is back they are over the cap. They have to trade someone. They have to find a way to get Pinto in and they have to be able to run this team properly. You can't have no cap room. They'll be playing short or with players playing hurt all year. You can't be competitive like this. One last present from Dorion.

Paying assets to dump a player is a non starter right now. Whether people want to come to terms with it or not they are going to have to make a choice of Chychrun or Chabot. I think it's quite clear who the more valuable player is.

They have an issue right now that needs to be addressed. Chabot really isn't a fit here anymore. Not at his cap hit and not at his position.

They quite clearly need a physical RD. He can get them that along with some futures and saves the teams cap issue.

 

[bert]

The Senators don't really have cap issues after this season. The cap was completely mismanaged this summer by Dorion.

The issue they have is that for better or worse, Dorion locked down the core with long-term extensions. So if new management comes in and feels changes need to be made to shake up the team, there are very few avenues to accomplish that.

Which isn't to say they should move Chabot one way or another, but it isn't entirely a team cap issue. They have cap flexibility next year and the year after that.

That's not accurate actually. They're going to have the exact same issues. Where do you think the money is going to come from to extend Chychrun? Fit Pinto in and carry a 22 man roster. It aint there. All of the extra money is going to Sanderson.

Chabots injury opened up space. In order for this team to carry a full roster someone has to be ON LTIR. You can't win this way.

 

[Micklebot]

Chabots injury opened up space. In order for this team to carry a full roster someone has to be ON LTIR. You can't win this way

Didn't both Vegas and Tbay win that way with Stone and Kucherov on LTIR?

We don't really have cap issues going forward, we have decisions to make concerning Tarasenko, Kubalik and eventually Girouxs dollars. If guys like Greig and Jarventie can become top 6 level regulars, it gives us flexibility to move on from one or more of those guys, alternatively we can look for more budget friendly UFA or trade targets.

 

[DueDiligence]

Didn't both Vegas and Tbay win that way with Stone and Kucherov on LTIR?

We don't really have cap issues going forward, we have decisions to make concerning Tarasenko, Kubalik and eventually Girouxs dollars. If guys like Greig and Jarventie can become top 6 level regulars, it gives us flexibility to move on from one or more of those guys, alternatively we can look for more budget friendly UFA or trade targets.

Vegas and TBay both won because of the lax cap rules in the playoffs. They both would have had to drop a top player to have been cap compliant if it had been strictly enforced.

And teams that win also have guys like Greig and Jarventie stepping up in their ELC years and replacing more expensive guys. That's the ideal scenario.

 

[Beech]

Didn't both Vegas and Tbay win that way with Stone and Kucherov on LTIR?

We don't really have cap issues going forward, we have decisions to make concerning Tarasenko, Kubalik and eventually Girouxs dollars. If guys like Greig and Jarventie can become top 6 level regulars, it gives us flexibility to move on from one or more of those guys, alternatively we can look for more budget friendly UFA or trade targets.

3 guys.. a 5 m, a 3 m and a 6 m. Will be replaced (potentially) by jarventie, Greig and reasonable UFA!!!!

and Greig playing well enough to be on line 2.. will accept what? Batherson a defensive liability at 5M, Norris a possible bum shoulder at 8M.. you healthy and a solid 2 way... will want what? 5-8 M

if you replace Giroux on line 1... his range becomes what? 6-8.3M ditto for Jarventie...ditto for low end ufa.

let us talk the summer of 2024. Once they started slapping around 8 years @ X dollars.. it locked the whole structure

Giroux's replacement
Tarasenko or his replacement
Pinto
Chycherin
Klevin
Pinto
Jarventi
Kubalik
all 4 goalies (the NHL backup and the 3 AHL guys)
2-3 other contracts

all on the plate the next 2 summers.

best of luck

 

[bert]

Didn't both Vegas and Tbay win that way with Stone and Kucherov on LTIR?

We don't really have cap issues going forward, we have decisions to make concerning Tarasenko, Kubalik and eventually Girouxs dollars. If guys like Greig and Jarventie can become top 6 level regulars, it gives us flexibility to move on from one or more of those guys, alternatively we can look for more budget friendly UFA or trade targets.

Does this rendition of the Ottawa Senators look like a team that has had multiple runs to cup finals etc? Secondly Chabot is not out for the season so the sens don't get the cap relief. These situations are absolutely nothing alike.

I don't know how anyone can argue this team doesn't have cap issues. They've played a man short. They haven't been able to call the best player up due to not having enough cap space. They have had to have players from Ottawa U practice with the team because they can't run a proper practice. They don't have the money to sign Pinto. Like micklebot you're a smart guy but your unwavering attempts to argue absolutely every point are wasting people's time.

Part of a coach's ability to coach is controlling ice time and player decisions. In terms of opportunity and who to dress. When you can't carry extra bodies they lose this ability.

I assume you meant next year but the fact of the matter is they have 69 more games this season and absolutely will run into the same issues next year. All the dead cap and whatever the cap increases to goes to Sanderson. So again if they want to ice as competitive a roster as this one they'll have no cap space. They have to sign Pinto.....

Then the year after that they will have choose between Chychrun and Chabot. So the choice is coming one way or another its inevitable.

It's been quite clear the current make up of this team misses Zub way more than Chabot. Do you feel this to be un true?

By trading Chabot for a similar player in ability and salary to zub it makes the team not only better but solves all the cap issues. And might even get this team futures to what is a bottom 5 prospect pool.

 

[Micklebot]

And teams that win also have guys like Greig and Jarventie stepping up in their ELC years and replacing more expensive guys. That's the ideal scenario.

Of course they do, and that's the point. If we have a cap problem, it's because we have too many qualify players, we don't really have much in the way of bad contracts, though there are some guys that have underperformed a bit lately.

Big muddy just put up a cap compliant 22 man roster for next season, it looks very competitive and that's without relying on Greig or Jarventie stepping up, if either can be a top 6 winger suddenly there's an extra 5 mil in the budget to upgrade elsewhere or fund resigning Chychrun.

Every single team has to make a sacrifice in one place to boost up another, the exception I suppose is the LTIR hijinks of our last two SC winners.

 

[Micklebot]

3 guys.. a 5 m, a 3 m and a 6 m. Will be replaced (potentially) by jarventie, Greig and reasonable UFA!!!!

and Greig playing well enough to be on line 2.. will accept what? Batherson a defensive liability at 5M, Norris a possible bum shoulder at 8M.. you healthy and a solid 2 way... will want what? 5-8 M

if you replace Giroux on line 1... his range becomes what? 6-8.3M ditto for Jarventie...ditto for low end ufa.

let us talk the summer of 2024. Once they started slapping around 8 years @ X dollars.. it locked the whole structure

Giroux's replacement
Tarasenko or his replacement
Pinto
Chycherin
Klevin
Pinto
Jarventi
Kubalik
all 4 goalies (the NHL backup and the 3 AHL guys)
2-3 other contracts

all on the plate the next 2 summers.

best of luck

Well, Pinto replaces Kubalik pretty easily imo, Greig looks like he's a gamer and will certainly be able to step up into a bigger role. Im hopeful Giroux sticks around, but if he doesn't, we'll make do, and guess what, the cap will continue to rise as well. Jarventie on a third line seems like a perfect match.

 

[bert]

Well, Pinto replaces Kubalik pretty easily imo, Greig looks like he's a gamer and will certainly be able to step up into a bigger role. Im hopeful Giroux sticks around, but if he doesn't, we'll make do, and guess what, the cap will continue to rise as well. Jarventie on a third line seems like a perfect match.

There is an insane amount of wishful thinking here. All in an attempt to keep a player that quite clearly does not fit the make up of this team. It's OK to agree when it's obvious.

The Giroux comment. Are you serious? You're arguing absolutely every point to keep Chabot. But are ok with losing Giroux? He's been more important and better than Chabot has ever been here.

Lastly this teams going to have injuries. They always have injuries. They have injuries right now. They need depth. You simply can't have an 8 million dollar d man on your third pair.

 

[Micklebot]

Does this rendition of the Ottawa Senators look like a team that has had multiple runs to cup finals etc? Secondly Chabot is not out for the season so the sens don't get the cap relief. These situations are absolutely nothing alike.

I don't know how anyone can argue this team doesn't have cap issues. They've played a man short. They haven't been able to call the best player up due to not having enough cap space. They have had to have players from Ottawa U practice with the team because they can't run a proper practice. They don't have the money to sign Pinto. Like micklebot you're a smart guy but your unwavering attempts to argue absolutely every point are wasting people's time.

Part of a coach's ability to coach is controlling ice time and player decisions. In terms of opportunity and who to dress. When you can't carry extra bodies they lose this ability.

I assume you meant next year but the fact of the matter is they have 69 more games this season and absolutely will run into the same issues next year. All the dead cap and whatever the cap increases to goes to Sanderson. So again if they want to ice as competitive a roster as this one they'll have no cap space. They have to sign Pinto.....

Then the year after that they will have choose between Chychrun and Chabot. So the choice is coming one way or another its inevitable.

It's been quite clear the current make up of this team misses Zub way more than Chabot. Do you feel this to be un true?

By trading Chabot for a similar player in ability and salary to zub it makes the team not only better but solves all the cap issues. And might even get this team futures to what is a bottom 5 prospect pool.

They played a man shot this year Bert, everyone agrees we currently have cap issues, the claim was about moving forward, I don't know why that's hard to follow. Next year, the cap goes up significantly and alleviates the issue, Big muddy posted a lineup, all you have to do is look at it and you'll see a 22 man roster with room for a callup.

I get the desire to have a different mix on the backend, but that's a different conversation than whether we have cap problems moving forward.

I agree that there will be choices to be made when it's time to extend Chychrun, we'll have to decide whether the money comes from the top 6, the top 4, the backup goalie, or sacrifice depth. Every team blessed with talented players eventually has to make these decisions, that's not having cap problems, it's having talent. It's a good problem to have.

 

[BondraTime]

Giroux hopefully comes back on a 4ish million dollar retirement contract, Tarasenko's 5 should be redistributed, and Kubalik's 2.5 as well.

Cap will be ~92 million when Chych is up for a new contract, Sens have quite a bit of wiggle room to add a couple of 3-5 million dollar guys..

Tkachuk, Brady $8,205,714 LW NMC UFA - 3	Norris, Joshua $7,950,000 C UFA - 5	Batherson, Drake $4,975,000 RW UFA - 2
Joseph, Mathieu $2,950,000 LW, RW UFA - 1	Stutzle, Tim $8,350,000 C UFA - 6	Giroux, Claude $5,000,000 RW, C UFA
Foegele, Warren $3,000,000 LW, RW UFA	Pinto, Shane $3,000,000 C RFA	Greig, Ridly $2,000,000 C, LW RFA
Joshua, Dakota $1,500,000 LW UFA	Ostapchuk, Zack $825,000 C RFA - 1	MacEwen, Zack $775,000

Left Defense	Right Defense	Goaltender
Sanderson, Jake $8,050,000 LD UFA - 7	Zub, Artem $4,600,000 RD M-NTC UFA - 2	Korpisalo, Joonas $4,000,000 G M-NTC UFA - 3
Chychrun, Jakob $8,500,000 LD/RD UFA	Roy, Matt $3,500,000 RD UFA	Søgaard, Mads $1,750,000 G RFA
Chabot, Thomas $8,000,000 LD M-NTC UFA - 3	Kleven, Tyler $1,750,000 LD RFA
	Bernard-Docker, Jacob $1,250,000 RD RFA

Left side all get 22-25 minutes, same as Tampa. About 1.5 in cap remaining. If we want to use cheaper guys like Jarventie and co at 3rd and 4th line LW, there's more wiggle room

Sens have cap space moving forward. They are in a pickle this season, but things get much better moving forward with contracts expiring along with the dead cap coming out.

 

[bert]

They played a man shot this year Bert, everyone agrees we currently have cap issues, the claim was about moving forward, I don't know why that's hard to follow. Next year, the cap goes up significantly and alleviates the issue, Big muddy posted a lineup, all you have to do is look at it and you'll see a 22 man roster with room for a callup.

I get the desire to have a different mix on the backend, but that's a different conversation than whether we have cap problems moving forward.

I agree that there will be choices to be made when it's time to extend Chychrun, we'll have to decide whether the money comes from the top 6, the top 4, the backup goalie, or sacrifice depth. Every team blessed with talented players eventually has to make these decisions, that's not having cap problems, it's having talent. It's a good problem to have.

Moving forward? There's 69 more games this year.

And no the cap issues aren't fixed next year without losing depth. Why isn't the player that quite clearly does not fit who has a NTC that kicks in next year that you acknowledge they have to make a decision on the player that should be discussed and explored in being traded.

The bolded. What? No those two couldn't be anymore intertwined. There is a direct correlation. As to who you pay back there and the fit.

That is a cap problem man. You can keep repeating it that doesn't make it true.

 

[Micklebot]

There is an insane amount of wishful thinking here. All in an attempt to keep a player that quite clearly does not fit the make up of this team. It's OK to agree when it's obvious.

The Giroux comment. Are you serious? You're arguing absolutely every point to keep Chabot. But are ok with losing Giroux? He's been more important and better than Chabot has ever been here.

No wishful thinking, just looking at the roster, the cap situation and the players we have in the system. Just like when I told you Greig could provide much of what Pinto did last year, and fill in for him if there was a prolonged hold out, and guess what, he did and then some. Unfortunately he's hurt now which sucks but he performed exactly as I said he would.

Giroux will be 37 going on 38 when it's time te re-sign him Bert. I'm realistic, he's going to start declining, if he prices himself out then so be it.

 

[bert]

No wishful thinking, just looking at the roster, the cap situation and the players we have in the system. Just like when I told you Greig could provide much of what Pinto did last year, and fill in for him if there was a prolonged hold out, and guess what, he did and then some. Unfortunately he's hurt now which sucks but he performed exactly as I said he would.

Giroux will be 37 going on 38 when it's time te re-sign him Bert. I'm realistic, he's going to start declining, if he prices himself out then so be it.

Well they'll need to find someone to replace Giroux. Having an 8 million dollar d man on the third pairing is not good roster or cap management. That money should be concentrated on a replacement.

 

[Micklebot]

Moving forward? There's 69 more games this year.

And no the cap issues aren't fixed next year without losing depth. Why isn't the player that quite clearly does not fit who has a NTC that kicks in next year that you acknowledge they have to make a decision on the player that should be discussed and explored in being traded.

The bolded. What? No those two couldn't be anymore intertwined. There is a direct correlation. As to who you pay back there and the fit.

That is a cap problem man. You can keep repeating it that doesn't make it true.

Bert, next year, follow the conversation and stop trying to move the goal posts. You even bolded after next year in your response to frightenedinmatenum.

What we have now is a cap problem, we can't fit all our guys and have a full roster.

What we have going forward, read next season and onward, is not, as show by the multiple rosters posted.

 

[bert]

Giroux hopefully comes back on a 4ish million dollar retirement contract, Tarasenko's 5 should be redistributed, and Kubalik's 2.5 as well.

Cap will be ~92 million when Chych is up for a new contract, Sens have quite a bit of wiggle room to add a couple of 3-5 million dollar guys..

Tkachuk, Brady $8,205,714 LW NMC UFA - 3	Norris, Joshua $7,950,000 C UFA - 5	Batherson, Drake $4,975,000 RW UFA - 2
Joseph, Mathieu $2,950,000 LW, RW UFA - 1	Stutzle, Tim $8,350,000 C UFA - 6	Giroux, Claude $5,000,000 RW, C UFA
Foegele, Warren $3,000,000 LW, RW UFA	Pinto, Shane $3,000,000 C RFA	Greig, Ridly $2,000,000 C, LW RFA
Joshua, Dakota $1,500,000 LW UFA	Ostapchuk, Zack $825,000 C RFA - 1	MacEwen, Zack $775,000

Left Defense	Right Defense	Goaltender
Sanderson, Jake $8,050,000 LD UFA - 7	Zub, Artem $4,600,000 RD M-NTC UFA - 2	Korpisalo, Joonas $4,000,000 G M-NTC UFA - 3
Chychrun, Jakob $8,500,000 LD/RD UFA	Roy, Matt $3,500,000 RD UFA	Søgaard, Mads $1,750,000 G RFA
Chabot, Thomas $8,000,000 LD M-NTC UFA - 3	Kleven, Tyler $1,750,000 LD RFA
	Bernard-Docker, Jacob $1,250,000 RD RFA

About 1.5 in cap remaining. If we want to use cheaper guys like Jarventie and co at 3rd and 4th line LW, there's more wiggle room

Sens have cap space moving forward. They are in a pickle this season, but things get much better moving forward with contracts expiring along with the dead cap coming out.

How did Ottawa get Matt Roy for peanuts where did they get foegel and why did Pinto and Greig agree to those contracts?...

The current version of the sens with Chabot out and one of Tanev and Larsson is a way better team on paper than that group.

 

[bert]

Bert, next year, follow the conversation and stop trying to move the goal posts. You even bolded after next year in your response to frightenedinmatenum.

What we have now is a cap problem, we can't fit all our guys and have a full roster.

What we have going forward, read next season and onward, is not, as show by the multiple rosters posted.

Ah yes the I've lost the argument or had no rebuttal so you suggest that I've moved the goal posts and haven't been following the thread.

I've been in this thread for 2 days. Posters are responding to me. You are just too stubborn to have an honest conversation now. This entire debate started because I made a trade concept/suggestion around Chabot. They are going to have to trade someone before the middle of January. It's impacts will not only be now but the future too. We have a sample size we know what works and what doesn't. Kicking the problem down the line doesn't solve anything. Cap space is valuable.

Its not moving the goal posts when someone suggests that the cap issues now and moving forward are intertwined and directly correlate with roster decisions now that solve a problem now and in the future.

 

[Micklebot]

Ah yes the I've lost the argument or had no rebuttal so you suggest that I've moved the goal posts and haven't been following the thread.

I've been in this thread for 2 days. Posters are responding to me. You are just too stubborn to have an honest conversation now.

Its not moving the goal posts when someone suggests that the cap issues now and moving forward are intertwined and directly correlate with roster decisions now that solve a problem now and in the future.

The problem here Bert is your post is just up the page so we can all see it in black and white so you can't gaslight it away

 

[BondraTime]

How did Ottawa get Matt Roy for peanuts where did they get foegel and why did Pinto and Greig agree to those contracts?...

The current version of the sens with Chabot out and one of Tanev and Larsson is a way better team on paper than that group.

Roy and Foegel are just placeholders as UFA's for a 3rd line winger and 17 minute a night D between ~6 million, it won't be difficult to find guys for both roles for 6 million, they just so happened to be available UFA's I plugged in. Could be much less if we use guys like Jarventie. 2 and 3 million for bridge deals for Grieg and Pinto seems pretty reasonable. Pinto is going to have about 30 games to build on his contract this year. Add a million between them if we want, Not as though JBD and Kleven are going to cost 3 million between them in a season.

The team gets much worse substituting Chabot for either guy imo

 

[bert]

The problem here Bert is your post is just up the page so we can all see it in black and white so you can't gaslight it away

My posts are continously in this thread for 4 pages. Can you see those too or are those being gas lit?

Instead of making it about the individual why not continue to conversation. Please explain to me how I am wrong when Suggesting that the decision this team has to make to get Pinto in the lineup is not intertwined with the roster make up now and how much cap space this team has moving forward.

 

[stempniaksen]

Ah yes the I've lost the argument or had no rebuttal so you suggest that I've moved the goal posts and haven't been following the thread.

I've been in this thread for 2 days. Posters are responding to me. You are just too stubborn to have an honest conversation now. This entire debate started because I made a trade concept/suggestion around Chabot. They are going to have to trade someone before the middle of January. It's impacts will not only be now but the future too. We have a sample size we know what works and what doesn't. Kicking the problem down the line doesn't solve anything. Cap space is valuable.

Its not moving the goal posts when someone suggests that the cap issues now and moving forward are intertwined and directly correlate with roster decisions now that solve a problem now and in the future.

This is actually a serious question. Why?

Why can't this team continue to punt the Chabot problem into the off-season?

The issues of this season (dead cap, flat cap) aren't going to be the same issues that plague the team in the off-season. Chabot's M-NTC only kicks in on July 1st (post draft) and for the love of god it's also only a M-NTC (10 teams) so there could still be a fit even if it drags on that long (seems more like a PD move than an Andlauer move anyways).

I can buy the argument to start thinking about a world without Chabot (if the value is right) but I also don't think it's as black and white as you're making it seem.

How did Ottawa get Matt Roy for peanuts where did they get foegel and why did Pinto and Greig agree to those contracts?...

The current version of the sens with Chabot out and one of Tanev and Larsson is a way better team on paper than that group.

Trading Thomas Chabot for a 34 year old UFA shutdown defenceman would be beyond shortsighted though.

 

[bert]

This is actually a serious question. Why?

Why can't this team continue to punt the Chabot problem into the off-season?

The issues of this season (dead cap, flat cap) aren't going to be the same issues that plague the team in the off-season. Chabot's M-NTC only kicks in on July 1st (post draft) and for the love of god it's also only a M-NTC (10 teams) so there could still be a fit even if it drags on that long (seems more like a PD move than an Andlauer move anyways).

I can buy the argument to start thinking about a world without Chabot (if the value is right) but I also don't think it's as black and white as you're making it seem.

Well they have to make a decision one way or another. So pick you poison. I am personally choosing a player where the clock is ticking and he's quite clearly the odd man out in regards to him Chych and Sanderson.

It's not black and white I agree but I do believe it's the ovwehwlmingly correct decision when evaluating this team. The chychrun contract is impacting this and frankly team performance. This team misses Zub badly. They need another one.

 

[bert]

This is actually a serious question. Why?

Why can't this team continue to punt the Chabot problem into the off-season?

The issues of this season (dead cap, flat cap) aren't going to be the same issues that plague the team in the off-season. Chabot's M-NTC only kicks in on July 1st (post draft) and for the love of god it's also only a M-NTC (10 teams) so there could still be a fit even if it drags on that long (seems more like a PD move than an Andlauer move anyways).

I can buy the argument to start thinking about a world without Chabot (if the value is right) but I also don't think it's as black and white as you're making it seem.



Trading Thomas Chabot for a 34 year old UFA shutdown defenceman would be beyond shortsighted though.

In reference to black and white. I have mentioned a couple times the sens would be getting a substantial future. But it's not just that, they get Pinto. They get cap flexibility to run the organization properly. They avoid losing another asset to tie to a player who is contributing right now that they need right now. If one of Chabot or Chychrun could play rd and could shut it down this conversation wouldn't be happening. But neither of them appear to be capable of doing it.

 

[stempniaksen]

In reference to black and white. I have mentioned a couple times the sens would be getting a substantial future. But it's not just that, they get Pinto. They get cap flexibility to run the organization properly. They avoid losing another asset to tie to a player who is contributing right now that they need right now. If one of Chabot or Chychrun could play rd and could shut it down this conversation wouldn't be happening. But neither of them appear to be capable of doing it.

They can avoid losing another asset to tie to a contributing player by trading Brannstrom too. Solves the Pinto problem and gives the team time to evaluate Chabot (god willing under a different coach) before you look at trading the guy for pennies or 34 year old's.

Personally I just don't think this is an in-season move. The Sens AND any potential trade partners will want to see how he comes back from injury and by that point he'll almost be an early trade deadline addition for the team. I strongly doubt we'd be able to upgrade in season and would be happy running the wonky ill-fitting but talented defence until at least the summer.