Proposal: Free agency edition Trade Rumours/Proposals [MOD - Stay on Topic] 5

[HSF]

While Kubalik may make the most sense.. do any of us think PD will actually move on from his return on the Debrincat trade so soon? Hubris.. Dorion.

Wonder if this is why there is a hold up. Dorion might not want to move Kubalik due to it being a shot against his record (once again) and Staois being like he is the obvious player to move

We know the blow back from fans will be why did we trade DBC with Kubalik being a main piece in a deal and I suspect that is the question that POHO and ownership would have for Dorion

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Wonder if this is why there is a hold up. Dorion might not want to move Kubalik due to it being a shot against his record (once again) and Staois being like he is the obvious player to move

We know the blow back from fans will be why did we trade DBC with Kubalik being a main piece in a deal and I suspect that is the question that POHO and ownership would have for Dorion

They should have a long list. I am sure some have been discussed. I think the 1st round pick is the main piece in the return. It goes right back to acquiring DeBrincat in the first place with no extension and a 9m QO staring them in the face. Any extenstion at 8+ puts us in the position we are in now.
Why Pinto wasn't signed while space was available and how does Dorion justify that?

 

[HSF]

They should have a long list. I am sure some have been discussed. I think the 1st round pick is the main piece in the return. It goes right back to acquiring DeBrincat in the first place with no extension and a 9m QO staring them in the face. Any extenstion at 8+ puts us in the position we are in now.
Why Pinto wasn't signed while space was available and how does Dorion justify that?

Yup definitely

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

The hold up is because fixing the problem will be expensive asset wise, they aren't losing, Norris is coming back, and unless the start losing the real choke point with the roster is in mid-December when their easy (travel-wise) schedule concludes.

Unless they start losing, or someone offers them a good deal, I think they will wait and see if a player bails them out by getting hurt and qualifying for LTIR. Which isn't to say they are hoping for an injury, but injuries are inevitable and there is a reasonable chance that someone who makes 2M or more might end up on LTIR before December.

If Dorion is going to have to give up a 2nd or a good prospect to move Kubalik or Brannstrom, or a 1st round pick to move both together or Joseph, they might as well wait it out.

I think the disconnect is that people wrongly assume that Dorion could waive Kubalik or offer him up for a late pick, and someone would take him. Kubalik and Brannstrom probably would both clear waivers right now due to the restrictions with the cap.

If Norris plays against Washington, his arm doesn't fall off, and within a few weeks he is good enough to be the most effective option on either the 2nd or 3rd line, and Greig continues to play well, then the Senators don't need to make a panic move.

I think if we see a few losses, that's when the pressure comes to make a move. As of now, Dorion is getting lucky because in spite of the cap being mismanaged, the team has looked fantastic the past two games and seems to be riding a lot of positive momentum.

 

[HSF]

The hold up is because fixing the problem will be expensive asset wise, they aren't losing, Norris is coming back, and unless the start losing the real choke point with the roster is in mid-December when their easy (travel-wise) schedule concludes.

Unless they start losing, or someone offers them a good deal, I think they will wait and see if a player bails them out by getting hurt and qualifying for LTIR. Which isn't to say they are hoping for an injury, but injuries are inevitable and there is a reasonable chance that someone who makes 2M or more might end up on LTIR before December.

If Dorion is going to have to give up a 2nd or a good prospect to move Kubalik or Brannstrom, or a 1st round pick to move both together or Joseph, they might as well wait it out.

I think the disconnect is that people wrongly assume that Dorion could waive Kubalik or offer him up for a late pick, and someone would take him. Kubalik and Brannstrom probably would both clear waivers right now due to the restrictions with the cap.

If Norris plays against Washington, his arm doesn't fall off, and within a few weeks he is good enough to be the most effective option on either the 2nd or 3rd line, and Greig continues to play well, then the Senators don't need to make a panic move.

I think if we see a few losses, that's when the pressure comes to make a move. As of now, Dorion is getting lucky because in spite of the cap being mismanaged, the team has looked fantastic the past two games and seems to be riding a lot of positive momentum.

'they aren't losing' is kind of a poor argument because once you sign Pinto it will take him a few weeks to actually get up to speed with the season and by then your season can be done. While LTIR will help the situation it is only temporary. Pinto's cap his also increases each day/game he is out for.

If the cost is a 3rd/2nd to get rid of Kubalik then you might have to bite the bullet. It looks poor on the GM but maybe that is what happens here with Staois is here.

Lets not forget Pinto could also ask for a trade if this lingers as it is a cap issue with the team. If you go down that path it gets real sketchy real quick

 

[bert]

No, they're in cap trouble because the cap's only gone up 5% over the last 5 years. No one anticipated almost 5 years of nearly stagnant cap, which is why so many teams are up against it. All the other stuff is inconsequential to the argument.

No they are in cap trouble because they are paying 4 players to not play for the team. Those are mistakes, its wild to even suggest the bolded. While yes the stagnant cap has effected other teams its not the reason this team has no cap space. Paying problems to go away is.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

'they aren't losing' is kind of a poor argument because once you sign Pinto it will take him a few weeks to actually get up to speed with the season and by then your season can be done. While LTIR will help the situation it is only temporary. Pinto's cap his also increases each day/game he is out for.

If the cost is a 3rd/2nd to get rid of Kubalik then you might have to bite the bullet. It looks poor on the GM but maybe that is what happens here with Staois is here.

Lets not forget Pinto could also ask for a trade if this lingers as it is a cap issue with the team. If you go down that path it gets real sketchy real quick

When I refer to LTIR, I don't mean a player missing a month. I am referring to the possibility of something like what just happened with Dach. Every team has 1 or 2 players either get season-ending or very long injuries. I understand that with a shorter-term LTIR candidate, it wouldn't resolve the problem.

When I refer to them not losing, I am referring to why there isn't pressure to get this done. I don't disagree with you. I am not defending or justifying their complete mismanagement of the cap. I am stating why I think the team is dragging their feet on getting this done.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

No they are in cap trouble because they are paying 4 players to not play for the team. Those are mistakes, its wild to even suggest the bolded. While yes the stagnant cap has effected other teams its not the reason this team has no cap space. Paying problems to go away is.

It's not like the cap not increasing snuck up on them either. Some teams like the TML literally signed contracts with the expectation the cap would rise and some of those contracts and cap situations are directly affected by that. Ottawa basically managed their rebuild rising up and the re-signings within the non rising cap environment. Bad attempt at a point imo.

 

[Dan Patrick]

Still being haunted by the stingy ghost of Melnyk. I’m thinking some sort of exorcist or the ghost busters might clear up some of these cap problems.

 

[HSF]

No, they're in cap trouble because the cap's only gone up 5% over the last 5 years. No one anticipated almost 5 years of nearly stagnant cap, which is why so many teams are up against it. All the other stuff is inconsequential to the argument.

All the other teams were able to easily make space

 

[BankStreetParade]

No they are in cap trouble because they are paying 4 players to not play for the team. Those are mistakes, its wild to even suggest the bolded. While yes the stagnant cap has effected other teams its not the reason this team has no cap space. Paying problems to go away is.

A stagnant cap means the buyouts are an issue. A cap that had increased even 8%, instead of just 5%, over the last 5 years means there would be another $2.36M in cap space to work with. That's the problem. Even that 8% would still be the slowest 5-year rate of growth since the inception of the cap. Don't know why we're talking about anything else when there's 20 teams with less than $1M in cap space right now.

All the other teams were able to easily make space

20 teams with less than $1M in cap space in a 32 team league. The stagnation of the cap is the problem.

 

[HSF]

A stagnant cap means the buyouts are an issue. A cap that had increased even 8%, instead of just 5%, over the last 5 years means there would be another $2.36M in cap space to work with. That's the problem. Even that 8% would still be the slowest 5-year rate of growth since the inception of the cap. Don't know why we're talking about anything else when there's 20 teams with less than $1M in cap space right now.


20 teams with less than $1M in cap space in a 32 team league. The stagnation of the cap is the problem.

Nope

The team had plenty of space going into the summer to sign Pinto and still did knowing that Murray was not going to be bought out and what the cap number would be this year

 

[Ice-Tray]

That’s true, any player can be had for an insulting contract offer and if they don’t sign it, it’s their own fault

I don’t think 1.5ish is insulting at all, but here’s the thing; it’s all we have so yeah he can choose to be insulted and not sign, and sit.

We can say ‘totally understand, our bad, not a great situation and it’s not your fault, but no worries, go play in Europe this season and we’ll have more cash to offer you a better deal next summer’.

I don’t support making the team worse for one season going forward to free up a couple hundred g’s to sign Pinto for one year. I wouldn’t take back signing Tank to have Pinto at a couple hundred G’s over the available cash for one season, and at this point I’m not ok with trading valuable players to us in Joseph and Branstrom, just to free up a couple hundred g’s to make room for Pinto for one season.

So yeah, it’s an it’s all we got for you man, it’s still a nice raise after your one year in the league, for one season of play, but totally understand if you’d rather play in Europe for the year and wait out a better deal next season.

I think people are getting hung up on the ‘mismanagement’. Who cares at this point? Any trade where we send out good players and picks to fit in Pinto, for one season, when everyone can fit next summer, makes us worse now and going forward. Pinto has zero leverage so the CBA says he should still be happy to be here.

 

[Xspyrit]

No, they're in cap trouble because the cap's only gone up 5% over the last 5 years. No one anticipated almost 5 years of nearly stagnant cap, which is why so many teams are up against it. All the other stuff is inconsequential to the argument.

Among all the 32 teams, Shane Pinto is the ONLY RFA not signed yet. It's the same rules for everybody

Pierre Dorion just has no idea what he is doing. I don't know how many proofs and crap situations people need?

Kubalik, Korpisalo and Tarasenko are all new acquisitions, that's 11.5 AAV. We had cap space, just that Dorion is not good at managing.

If he was smart or had any idea about pro scouting, he would have not asked for Kubalik in the DeBrincat trade OR at least trade him right away after signing Tarasenko.

For the 4th year in a row, I told him WITHOUT the benefit of hindsight what to do and he didn't listen once again

He made that deal before he signed Tarasenko though. That's easy enough to spin imo.

Sucks though, because people on here seem to think Kubalik is nothing, but when the inevitable cold streaks/injuries hit, he could be a very important player for us, but it is was it is

Reality is with 5 M$ in dead cap (other Dorion mistakes), we can't afford to have all of Korpisalo, Tarasenko, Kubalik and Pinto

Don't forget we already paid 2nd + 3rd + 4th + 7th to fix some other Dorion mistakes (Zaitsev and 75% of Murray)

Same rules for all teams who make their decisions BEFORE the season. lol

 

[Ice-Tray]

Still being haunted by the stingy ghost of Melnyk. I’m thinking some sort of exorcist or the ghost busters might clear up some of these cap problems.

Time. A few more months and it’s all gone

 

[bert]

A stagnant cap means the buyouts are an issue. A cap that had increased even 8%, instead of just 5%, over the last 5 years means there would be another $2.36M in cap space to work with. That's the problem. Even that 8% would still be the slowest 5-year rate of growth since the inception of the cap. Don't know why we're talking about anything else when there's 20 teams with less than $1M in cap space right now.


20 teams with less than $1M in cap space in a 32 team league. The stagnation of the cap is the problem.

Stagnant cap or not the buy outs were Dorions mistakes. The sens also got players on more team friendly deals because of the stagnant cap. Ultimately they would have 5 million in cap space if Dorion wasnt such a horrible evaluator of pro talent and that is why this team has no room to sign pinto.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

The astounding thing about the cap problems is not the dead cap, it's that we had cap flexibility going into the offseason and Pinto should have been a greater priority than acquiring Kubalik or extending Brannstrom.

Once we already had Kubalik, Pinto should have been a bigger priority than Tarasenko. I don't think Kubalik is a top 6 winger, but starting the season with Pinto down the middle would have been more important than upgrading Kubalik to Tarasenko.

We needed a starting goalie so using 4M of cap on a player who we perceived to be a starter in a 1A/B situation with Forsberg was justifiable as a priority ahead of dealing with Pinto. Which isn't me saying I do or don't think Korpisalo was the guy, only that we needed a goalie.

The dead cap is still a problem, but it was already there and we had room to work with. We shouldn't have ended up in this situation with a key player still unsigned when our 2C was already questionable to play.

 

[Ice-Tray]

The astounding thing about the cap problems is not the dead cap, it's that we had cap flexibility going into the offseason and Pinto should have been a greater priority than acquiring Kubalik or extending Brannstrom.

Once we already had Kubalik, Pinto should have been a bigger priority than Tarasenko. I don't think Kubalik is a top 6 winger, but starting the season with Pinto down the middle would have been more important than upgrading Kubalik to Tarasenko.

We needed a starting goalie so using 4M of cap on a player who we perceived to be a starter in a 1A/B situation with Forsberg was justifiable as a priority ahead of dealing with Pinto. Which isn't me saying I do or don't think Korpisalo was the guy, only that we needed a goalie.

The dead cap is still a problem, but it was already there and we had room to work with. We shouldn't have ended up in this situation with a key player still unsigned when our 2C was questionable to play.

Naw, I think you sign Tank regardless of Pinto and sort it out later.

I think Tank will be more important to the team’s success this season than Pinto. Especially when Grieg is playing really well. Add Norris back into the mix and I personally think that signing Tank to a one year deal was an offer that couldn’t be refused no matter how it plays out.

The fact that Jospeh has been so good has made things harder in terms of wanting to trade him, but easier to run with the current roster. I also agree with many that after camp it’s pretty clear that we need Branstrom right now.

Pinto could have been in camp, but for a few hundred K that we don’t have he gets to watch, and I personally prefer that to not having Tank in the lineup. Sucks, but we’re a better team with Grieg and Tank in the top 9 than we are with Pinto and Grieg.

 

[GCK]

Among all the 32 teams, Shane Pinto is the ONLY RFA not signed yet. It's the same rules for everybody

Pierre Dorion just has no idea what he is doing. I don't know how many proofs and crap situations people need?

Kubalik, Korpisalo and Tarasenko are all new acquisitions, that's 11.5 AAV. We had cap space, just that Dorion is not good at managing.

If he was smart or had any idea about pro scouting, he would have not asked for Kubalik in the DeBrincat trade OR at least trade him right away after signing Tarasenko.

For the 4th year in a row, I told him WITHOUT the benefit of hindsight what to do and he didn't listen once again



Reality is with 5 M$ in dead cap (other Dorion mistakes), we can't afford to have all of Korpisalo, Tarasenko, Kubalik and Pinto

Don't forget we already paid 2nd + 3rd + 4th + 7th to fix some other Dorion mistakes (Zaitsev and 75% of Murray)

Same rules for all teams who make their decisions BEFORE the season. lol

Weren’t you one of the posters pushing for a Debrincat re-signing.

 

[aragorn]

If I recall correctly either signing DBC or moving him out was the # 1 priority that the media focused on & consequently fans focused on. Once that deal was done or before I can't remember they addressed the goaltending problem & signed Korpisalo to a decent deal. Because the return on DBC was a much cheaper Kubalik they jumped on the opportunity to sign Tarasenko at a team friendly 1 yr deal & improved the team substantially on paper anyway.

It was at this point where they started to negotiate with Pinto who they thought would take less based on his situation but since he wanted more than they could afford it became a problem. The fact is that they need to find around $2 plus mil which is not a lot in hockey dollars these days & as the season rolls on some team is going to have injury issues that may force them to make a decent hockey deal. It's not ideal, but it's also not the end of the world & eventually this will get sorted out they always do & regardless of how it's sorted their will be those that hate it & those that are okay with it as always. It's just a matter of time.

 

[Xspyrit]

Weren’t you one of the posters pushing for a Debrincat re-signing.

Not really. I was "open" to it when we first got him but early in the season last year I was talking oh how de didn't fit and was not good defensively. That got some resistance, as usual.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

If I recall correctly either signing DBC or moving him out was the # 1 priority that the media focused on & consequently fans focused on. Once that deal was done or before I can't remember they addressed the goaltending problem & signed Korpisalo to a decent deal. Because the return on DBC was a much cheaper Kubalik they jumped on the opportunity to sign Tarasenko at a team friendly 1 yr deal & improved the team substantially on paper anyway.

It was at this point where they started to negotiate with Pinto who they thought would take less based on his situation but since he wanted more than they could afford it became a problem. The fact is that they need to find around $2 plus mil which is not a lot in hockey dollars these days & as the season rolls on some team is going to have injury issues that may force them to make a decent hockey deal. It's not ideal, but it's also not the end of the world & eventually this will get sorted out they always do & regardless of how it's sorted their will be those that hate it & those that are okay with it as always. It's just a matter of time.

If you have 3$ in the bank (budgeting for Pinto) you spend 3 not 5.

 

[aragorn]

If you have 3$ in the bank (budgeting for Pinto) you spend 3 not 5.

Well you need extra money for callups right & some breathing room. They had to start the season one man short because of it.

 

[Schmautz11]

Well you need extra money for callups right & some breathing room. They had to start the season one man short because of it.

I think it is referred to as a budget. Every business in the solar system have them and the employee responsible for abiding by it understands the concept. Except one.

 

[LiseL]

The Chara/Redden choice could be up there for some as well.

I remember hearing that when Muckler traded Hossa for Heatley, Chara was so upset at the sneaky way it was done (after arbitration, signing Hossa to a multiple year contract then promptly trading him), he wouldn't sign with Ottawa so that only left Redden. Trading Hossa was the reason I hated Muckler as the GM. I know a lot of fans liked Heatley, me, not as much as Hossa. Hossa was a power forward, Chara was a beast. Ironically, both Hossa and Chara won Stanley Cups with their new teams. Imagine that 2007 run if it had included them both.