Free Agency and Trade Thread - Playoff Edition II

[Cor]

How about Vegas? Their cap issues are insane and people here think we can get their cheap top 4 d man C.Miller when they are short on defenseman and have to try and acquire more while having zero cap space.

A popular name.

If we trade Zaitsev for a pick/prospect, instead of in a hockey deal, say to Vancouver, I 100% think he'd be a target of ours.

 

[Menzinger]

I don't mind Nylander at C, but he's probably more valuable with Matthews.

Finding a C that fits and then moving him for a winger and not taking too much of hit on the value could be difficult.

Oh dont me wrong, I think it's a waste to have Nylander as a 3C, but think a trade like what Boston did with Coyle could happen if they need a Kdri replacement. That said a Nylander at centre line would be gr ew at if he had the right wingers

Safe bet is still Kadri will be the eams 3C opening night

 

[Menzinger]

I don’t think the cap structure and lines need to be hierarchical necessarily. It just depends on how you want to roll it out.
I like Willy as a 3rd line C, because I believe he can drive a line, and make complimentary guys better.
Naz can do the same thing.
The way I see it, you can roll three balanced scoring lines driven by AM, JT/MM, WN with Naz moved, or keep WN with AM and use the 3rd line in a more conventional agitating/complimentary/development way.
That’s the best part about having WM imo...creates lots of flexibility. Which is good, given the snug nature of the current cap situation where somethings gotta give.

I don't mind the balanced lines approach, but I'd like to see some skill alongside Nylander (as opposed to a rehash of Brown/Marleau) if he was a centre.

Ar the moment i think I'd prefer to reunite him with Matthew's though.

 

[Rare Jewel]

I have Connor and Laine taking up about 12-13M (I think Laine may sign a bridge, given his performance) and the other rfa's taking up about 3-4M.

(Laine's 1 year deal projection is 5.6M - Connor projected at 6x6.9 - total of 12.5M)

For us, I run Matthews-Tavares-Nylander down the middle in the top 9, with a mix of Hyman, Marner, Johnsson, Kapanen, Moore, Bracco, Mikheyev, Korshkov in the top 9. (6 spots, 8 names, in case Johnsson or Kappy price themselves out, or Bracco/Mikheyev/Korshkov don't preform, etc)

So it really only works if one of them takes a bridge. I guess you would have to see then. Also both Kadri and Zaitsev have NTC, So I'm not sure how that would figure in.


As I said in the other post, I think the best place for Nylander is back with Matthews. I don't think you'll get full value from him on the 3rd line.

 

[BertCorbeau]

One factor to consider regarding Kadri's trade value is that the UFA market is weak for centres this year

With Nelson re-signing the top 3 are: Duchene, Thornton, and Hayes ... Other names are Brassard, Spezza, and Filppula

Thornton likely sticks with San Jose ... And given Nelson got a $6x6 deal from the Isles, Hayes likely gets a similar contract. So Kadri @ $4.5 mill for 3 more years looks a lot better for teams that are looking to contend or take a serious step forward (i.e. the Jets, Flames, Flyers, Av's).

So while I think the Leafs should seriously entertain offers and discuss moving him to improve the team, they hold strong leverage in trade talks since other teams don't have much of a plan B in free agency

 

[Kazparov]

Chris Tanev bought a house in Toronto yesterday.

 

[Warden of the North]

One factor to consider regarding Kadri's trade value is that the UFA market is weak for centres this year

With Nelson re-signing the top 3 are: Duchene, Thornton, and Hayes ... Other names are Brassard, Spezza, and Filppula

Thornton likely sticks with San Jose ... And given Nelson got a $6x6 deal from the Isles, Hayes likely gets a similar contract. So Kadri @ $4.5 mill for 3 more years looks a lot better for teams that are looking to contend or take a serious step forward (i.e. the Jets, Flames, Flyers, Av's).

So while I think the Leafs should seriously entertain offers and discuss moving him to improve the team, they hold strong leverage in trade talks since other teams don't have much of a plan B in free agency

C market is always strong, particular for a top 6 guy.

I expext Dubas to get a solid return for him.

 

[Rielly4]

A popular name.

If we trade Zaitsev for a pick/prospect, instead of in a hockey deal, say to Vancouver, I 100% think he'd be a target of ours.

I wasnt saying he wouldnt be a good target for us. I was pointing out that Vegas shouldnt trade their cheap top 4 D when they are in cap hell and D is their position of weakness.

 

[4thline]

The FLyers interest in Kadri is intriguing- a couple different fans willing to go with Laughton+ Gudas 50% retained +3rd ( they have 65 and 72) for Kadri. Not the sexiest trade but it pretty much rebalances our roster and solves a lot of our troubles in one move, + adds a top 80 pick. Assuming a Laughton extension and coupled with a Brown trade it sets up

Hyman-Tavares-xxx
xxx-Matthews-Nylander
Moore-Laughton-xxx
Marleau-Gauthier-Mikheyev

Rielly-Gudas
Muzzin-Zaitsev
Dermott-Liljegren
Holl

With 14.7 million to fill the xxx's either by re-signing our guys, trading them and signing others, promoting youth or a combination

 

[Dreakmur]

The FLyers interest in Kadri is intriguing- a couple different fans willing to go with Laughton+ Gudas 50% retained +3rd ( they have 65 and 72) for Kadri. Not the sexiest trade but it pretty much rebalances our roster and solves a lot of our troubles in one move, + adds a top 80 pick. Assuming a Laughton extension and coupled with a Brown trade it sets up

Hyman-Tavares-xxx
xxx-Matthews-Nylander
Moore-Laughton-xxx
Marleau-Gauthier-Mikheyev

Rielly-Gudas
Muzzin-Zaitsev
Dermott-Liljegren
Holl

With 14.7 million to fill the xxx's either by re-signing our guys, trading them and signing others, promoting youth or a combination

To Philadelphia:
Nazem Kadri and Andreas Johnsson
To Toronto:
Scott Laughton, Ryan Hartman, and Radko Gudas (1,350,000 retained)
----- I'd rather keep Johnsson over Hartman, but we can't give him more much more than 2,000,000

To Edmonton:
Kasperi Kapanen and Connor Brown
To Toronto:
Adam Larsson and Jujhar Khaira
----- Khaira is probably an AHLer, but he can be a good 4th line banger if needed.

To Detroit:
Nikita Zaitsev
To Toronto:
Luke Glendenning
----- Salary cap savings and get an excellent defensive center and PKer


Zach Hyman - John Tavares - Mitch Marner
Ryan Hartman - Auston Matthews - William Nylander
Ilya Mikheyev - Scott Laughton - Jeremy Bracco
Patrick Marleau - Luke Glendenning - Trevor Moore

Morgan Rielly - Adam Larsson
Jake Muzzin - Travis Dermott
Calle Rosen - Radko Gudas

 

[SeaOfBlue]

To Philadelphia:
Nazem Kadri and Andreas Johnsson
To Toronto:
Scott Laughton, Ryan Hartman, and Radko Gudas (1,350,000 retained)
----- I'd rather keep Johnsson over Hartman, but we can't give him more much more than 2,000,000

To Edmonton:
Kasperi Kapanen and Connor Brown
To Toronto:
Adam Larsson and Jujhar Khaira
----- Khaira is probably an AHLer, but he can be a good 4th line banger if needed.

To Detroit:
Nikita Zaitsev
To Toronto:
Luke Glendenning
----- Salary cap savings and get an excellent defensive center and PKer


Zach Hyman - John Tavares - Mitch Marner
Ryan Hartman - Auston Matthews - William Nylander
Ilya Mikheyev - Scott Laughton - Jeremy Bracco
Patrick Marleau - Luke Glendenning - Trevor Moore

Morgan Rielly - Adam Larsson
Jake Muzzin - Travis Dermott
Calle Rosen - Radko Gudas

Leafs would only say yes to the 2nd one I would say.

No way they trade Zaitsev for an expensive 4th liner who is nothing special.

 

[Dreakmur]

Leafs would only say yes to the 2nd one I would say.

No way they trade Zaitsev for an expensive 4th liner who is nothing special.

There's no doubt that the team is downgrading in talent. The salary cap is going to force the exit of at least a few of Zaitsev, Brown, Johnsson, and Kapanen or Nylander. If we can use their exits to bring in the kinds of players we need, that's a bonus.

We need to add some energy up front, and we need to add PKers up front. We also need a couple good RDs, who can ideally PK. Hartman, Laughton, Glendenning, and Khaira all bring some physical bite. Glendenning is an elite PKer. Laughton is a good PKer. Larsson and Gudas are both good defensive RDs who can both PK.

I think it's an example of how you can actually downgrade in talent, but upgrade in effectiveness.

 

[aingefan]

Leafs would only say yes to the 2nd one I would say.

No way they trade Zaitsev for an expensive 4th liner who is nothing special.

Except for Babs.
I could see him clamouring for Glendening to be a vet presence mucked on the top two lines. His profile (responsible vet, multiple positions) is handy, but I’m not sold he’s the best fit.
I don’t think the value is right on that one either. Like you, I think Zaitsev holds more value than the consensus, and he’s making ~league average money, so I’d hold out for value.

 

[aingefan]

I don't mind the balanced lines approach, but I'd like to see some skill alongside Nylander (as opposed to a rehash of Brown/Marleau) if he was a centre.

Ar the moment i think I'd prefer to reunite him with Matthew's though.

Fair enough.
I usually picture Kap and AJ on Willy’s flanks as a pretty great third unit.
JT and MM together. Makes a great top unit, regardless of the third guy.
AM with Bracco eventually. AM’s gonna make any pair of guys dangerous.
Then there’s Hyman, Moore, Micheyev as potential third pieces on the top two lines as it stands right now.
Leaves Kadri free to move. Still a lot of money on WN’s line, so one of the wingers might need to go to allocate $ to the D. And Austin left with developing/unproven guys. His pockets are overflowing with cash though, so not an unreasonable ask.

 

[dubplatepressure]

To Philadelphia:
Nazem Kadri and Andreas Johnsson
To Toronto:
Scott Laughton, Ryan Hartman, and Radko Gudas (1,350,000 retained)
----- I'd rather keep Johnsson over Hartman, but we can't give him more much more than 2,000,000

To Edmonton:
Kasperi Kapanen and Connor Brown
To Toronto:
Adam Larsson and Jujhar Khaira
----- Khaira is probably an AHLer, but he can be a good 4th line banger if needed.

To Detroit:
Nikita Zaitsev
To Toronto:
Luke Glendenning
----- Salary cap savings and get an excellent defensive center and PKer


Zach Hyman - John Tavares - Mitch Marner
Ryan Hartman - Auston Matthews - William Nylander
Ilya Mikheyev - Scott Laughton - Jeremy Bracco
Patrick Marleau - Luke Glendenning - Trevor Moore

Morgan Rielly - Adam Larsson
Jake Muzzin - Travis Dermott
Calle Rosen - Radko Gudas

I think the bottom 6 here is too weak.

 

[Dreakmur]

I think the bottom 6 here is too weak.

That’s what happens when you spend half the cap on 4 players.

 

[SprDaVE]

If the Leafs think about trading Kadri this summer, I sure as hell it's a better return than what I've read around here. I'm not sure why his value seems completely underrated but a 2 time 30 goal scorer on a 4.5M cap hit contract for 3 years shouldn't be an asset given up for just depth pieces.

I'd be okay with a futures oriented trade back in order to save the most cap space, but 3rd round picks ain't going to be good enough if there isn't a damn good young player involved.

Laughton + Gudas, even with retention, isn't a very good return at all. It barely saves cap space and just weakens our forward depth while taking on a 1 year pending UFA defenseman. And then in a years time all we have is very likely Laughton to show for Kadri... nope.

 

[dubplatepressure]

That’s what happens when you spend half the cap on 4 players.

We've also given away Johnsson, Kadri, Kapanen, and Brown. I can see us trading 2 of them, but not all 4. We may have internal replacements for 2 in Moore and that russian kid (perhaps).

 

[Dreakmur]

If the Leafs think about trading Kadri this summer, I sure as hell it's a better return than what I've read around here. I'm not sure why his value seems completely underrated but a 2 time 30 goal scorer on a 4.5M cap hit contract for 3 years shouldn't be an asset given up for just depth pieces.

I'd be okay with a futures oriented trade back in order to save the most cap space, but 3rd round picks ain't going to be good enough if there isn't a damn good young player involved.

Laughton + Gudas, even with retention, isn't a very good return at all. It barely saves cap space and just weakens our forward depth while taking on a 1 year pending UFA defenseman. And then in a years time all we have is very likely Laughton to show for Kadri... nope.

It’s not as simple as just wanting to keep Kadri. As I said before, I would like to keep him too. The question, however, is who else has to go in order to keep him.

Status quo is not an option. We have to shed pieces.

So, if we keep Kadri, who do we lose?

 

[Dreakmur]

We've also given away Johnsson, Kadri, Kapanen, and Brown. I can see us trading 2 of them, but not all 4. We may have internal replacements for 2 in Moore and that russian kid (perhaps).

Yes, the middle guys who make money go. When half the cap goes to 4 players, you have to skimp somewhere.

Again, you can’t keep everyone. Contracts are going out the door, and that doesn’t even address that fact that we need to add to the blue line.

 

[dubplatepressure]

Yes, the middle guys who make money go. When half the cap goes to 4 players, you have to skimp somewhere.

Again, you can’t keep everyone. Contracts are going out the door, and that doesn’t even address that fact that we need to add to the blue line.

These general principals you are referencing are not applied well here - they're too extreme.

 

[SprDaVE]

It’s not as simple as just wanting to keep Kadri. As I said before, I would like to keep him too. The question, however, is who else has to go in order to keep him.

Status quo is not an option. We have to shed pieces.

So, if we keep Kadri, who do we lose?

We don't "have" to shed pieces for the sake of it. Obviously the cap needs to be addressed but there are other way of fixing that without removing a valuable asset for a mediocre return to fix that.

I'm not saying not to trade Kadri. I'm saying the return better be a whole lot better.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Paying Nylander 7 million dollars to play on the third line would be a mistake, he was signed to and should play with Matthews.

With possibly 3 forwards making 10+ million it would be crazy not to stack the top 6 as the leafs depth this year will be worse (Kap and/or AJ could be gone depending on Marner's ask).

I also dont see Marleau waiving or Zaitsev traded without another RHD (or two) coming in.

Finally, I hate to say it but I think we could see Hainsey back.

 

[4thline]

Laughton + Gudas, even with retention, isn't a very good return at all. It barely saves cap space and just weakens our forward depth while taking on a 1 year pending UFA defenseman. And then in a years time all we have is very likely Laughton to show for Kadri... nope.

In straight up dollars there isn't a huge amount of cap savings, but comparing straight across 3c vs 3c + 4RHD playing top pair is not very smart.

We go from Kadri @ 3C 4.5 million + ??? @ 4RHD (3M? 5m?) = 7.5-9.5 million
to Laughton ~ 2.5 + Gudas @ 1.675 = 4.175, while substituting a PP 3C for a PK 3C with little to no EV downgrade.

So when you say "all we'll have is Laughton" it's a very insular statement that ignores

A. being able to ice a better team in 19/20 due to low Gudas cap
B. potential acquisition cost of a different RHD
C. being able to retain both of Johnsson/Kapanen while doing A.
D. a top 70 pick. Point and Cirelli were 65-72 picks in back to back years, Grundstrom/Bracco/Woll all within a half dozen picks of that range. Used well it's a good asset

 

[SprDaVE]

In straight up dollars there isn't a huge amount of cap savings, but comparing straight across 3c vs 3c + 4RHD playing top pair is not very smart.

We go from Kadri @ 3C 4.5 million + ??? @ 4RHD (3M? 5m?) = 7.5-9.5 million
to Laughton ~ 2.5 + Gudas @ 1.675 = 4.175, while substituting a PP 3C for a PK 3C with little to no EV downgrade.

So when you say "all we'll have is Laughton" it's a very insular statement that ignores

A. being able to ice a better team in 19/20 due to low Gudas cap
B. potential acquisition cost of a different RHD
C. being able to retain both of Johnsson/Kapanen while doing A.
D. a top 70 pick. Point and Cirelli were 65-72 picks in back to back years, Grundstrom/Bracco/Woll all within a half dozen picks of that range. Used well it's a good asset

While I see the logic, the overall assets back in your scenario to me aren't nearly good enough in a long-term outlook and certainly isn't good enough in a way of taking the next step, at least to me.

If the only thing we can get out of Kadri is 1 year of Gudas and a big downgrade to Kadri and a top 70 pick, I'd rather keep Kadri and move on to find other solutions.

I know that you can find great players in the 3rd round... but they aren't exactly common. You know this. For the Points, Cirellis and whoever else, you have the countless of duds or players that took over 5 years to develop to even reach the NHL.