Proposal: Fowler for a Jets winger

[Hunter368]

So Fowler being forced to play top pairing on a good team means he's not top pairing quality? I don't see the logic. Had he been forced to play top pairing on a bad team, I would get that, but on a good team? Don't get it.

People keep saying the Ducks are a good team so that ends up devaluing some of our players (Fowler, Lindholm, Andersen), but the players on that team have to make that team good. If Fowler wasn't a top pairing quality player, the Ducks would not have been one of the top teams the past few years with him playing top pairing minutes.

Anderson, I've literally never even posted once about him....not sure what debates you've had.

Lindholm is a very good Dman, I value him highly. Not sure what others have posted.

So you're saying a good team has no weaknesses? A good team has no players playing above their heads? A good team has no players who have stepped it up during playoffs well above their career average/norm? Fowler is a 2nd pairing guy who has been forced to play top pairing role much of the time and hasn't performed up to top pairing quality but the team has still endured dispite this weakness b/c it's so good in other areas.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Jets need defense and Ducks need wingers and need to reduce costs. Would any of these forwards work for Fowler?
Most are less than $1 million cap hit range:

Shawn Matthias $2,300,000
Alexander Burmistrov. $1,550,000
Chris Thorburn $1,200,000
Marko Dano $925,000
Andrew Copp $925,000
Brandon Tanev $925,000
Joel Armia. $894,167
Brendan Lemieux $870,000
Quinton Howden $850,500
Adam Lowry $828,333
Nicolas Petan $758,333
Chase De Leo $720,833
Scott Kosmachuk $720,000
Anthony Peluso $675,000
James Lodge $668,333
JC Lipon

I don't know how Jets fans can ask so much for an unsigned Jacob Trouba then make a proposal like this. It makes no sense.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Oh I understand his post, any discussion even starting with the names of any of those players would end the conversation quickly.

I actually feel Connors for Fowler is a pretty fair starting point. I know the biased talk will disagree or you guys will talk down Fowler... but I think that's the only player that would be reasonable I'd consider

 

[Kalv]

Ok, a Ducks fan and Avs fan.....both seem more reasonable then others here who have already called Fowler a #1 D and estimated his value close to a top 5 RW and a elite prospect. Unreal, not even worth responding to those types of posts that border on troll posts.

Show me one post in this thread who suggests that. No one called him that, Ducks fans are admitting he is a #2. You`re such a populist dude.


If you want Fowler for cheap it is not gonna happen, your crazy statements will not bring his price down.

Ducks had the best defense in the league last year and Cam Fowler was playing by far the most minutes on the team. While even the Ducks fans agree he is not a clear #1, he is still a damn good player. But let`s imagine some fancy stats chart (posted by other dude) means everything in telling a price for a top pairing d-man right? You don`t want to give up your valuable assets for Fowler and we do not want to give him up for cheap pieces, get over it. If you want to pry away our D leader be ready to part with some of your leaders

 

[dracom]

Anderson, I've literally never even posted once about him....not sure what debates you've had.

Lindholm is a very good Dman, I value him highly. Not sure what others have posted.

So you're saying a good team has no weaknesses? A good team has no players playing above their heads? A good team has no players who have stepped it up during playoffs well above their career average/norm? Fowler is a 2nd pairing guy who has been forced to play top pairing role much of the time and hasn't performed up to top pairing quality but the team has still endured dispite this weakness b/c it's so good in other areas.

Andersen and Lindholm were mentioned because it was relevant to this conversation imo. Players being good on this team because they are good, not because the team around them makes them good.(As in, the Ducks being a good team despite Fowler). For Andersen is was because the defense made him good, for Lindholm is was Kesler made him good (still have no idea how someone argued that..)

What I'm saying is Fowler played on a top pairing role while carrying Bieksa/lovejoy type players on the top pairing for years, and during those years the Ducks were still one of the top teams in the league. Fowler is a good complimentary #2 to play along side an actual #1. He can handle top pairing competition when given a good partner (pre-concussed Despres). Or he could be one of the best #3 defensemen, but imo that would be selling him short.

Also, his skillset is better used in an offensive role, but he's been tasked to be a shutdown role since we didn't have anyone better (this does agree with your point).

A player can easily preform above their pay grade, but could that do that for years? And can a team who has a player doing that still be a top team for years? I don't believe so. Are the Ducks good enough in surrounding areas to make up for Fowler playing above his paygrade for years? I don't believe so.

 

[Hunter368]

I actually feel Connors for Fowler is a pretty fair starting point. I know the biased talk will disagree or you guys will talk down Fowler... but I think that's the only player that would be reasonable I'd consider

I respect your posts, your not being rude or disrespectful, I'm not trying to be either. But Connor is too much, some have predicted Conner out scores Laine this year, and if we go by preseason that's a very real possibility the kids been incredible. If Fowler was signed long term to a team friendly deal, that might change my answer or at least make me think longer about it. But two years of Fowlers isn't worth losing Connor. Pass

 

[Kalv]

Oh brother, Fowlers value is close to Troubas value, and I doubt we would take boarderline wingers for Trouba.. Some Jets fans are making Leafs fans look good :/

It`s ok we had one poster who compared Etem to Crosby Every fanbase have those, I tend to not value a fanbase out of a couple of posters.

 

[Hunter368]

That's fine, just like any conversation with those in the OP and Fowler ends just as quickly.

IMO yes all of those players except Dano. IMO Dano+ would be reasonable and my top price (value wise).

 

[Ducks in a row]

Jets need defense and Ducks need wingers and need to reduce costs. Would any of these forwards work for Fowler?
Most are less than $1 million cap hit range:

Shawn Matthias $2,300,000
Alexander Burmistrov. $1,550,000
Chris Thorburn $1,200,000
Marko Dano $925,000
Andrew Copp $925,000
Brandon Tanev $925,000
Joel Armia. $894,167
Brendan Lemieux $870,000
Quinton Howden $850,500
Adam Lowry $828,333
Nicolas Petan $758,333
Chase De Leo $720,833
Scott Kosmachuk $720,000
Anthony Peluso $675,000
James Lodge $668,333
JC Lipon

Ducks need top 6 wingers and none of these are the kind of wingers we need so............

Take it as a reflection how Jets fans see Fowler.......and no I don't expect any Ducks fan to agree we know they over value him.

If Jets fans see Fowler like this then said Jets fans need to get some new eyes.

No, no. We're pretty sure you overvalue him. We could only debate about by how much.

[/IMG]

And according to those hero charts Schultz > Fowler

Using those charts to judge a player doesn't tell you what you need to know about a player.

Fans, schmans! What have the GM's offered?

Are the Ducks willing to hold out for a better return on Fowler until they lose Lindholm or Rakell?

Think of it as Fowler for Dano and Rakell. Or Fowler for _____ and Rakell.

Not trading Fowler for crap doesn't mean we will lose Lindholm or Rakell.

Please, give your head a shake. You don't get those guys for Lindholm who is twice the player Fowler is. This is why this conversation with Ducks fans is so much fun.

Give your head a shake you don't get Lindholm for those guys. Jones got Johansen and Larsson got Hall we know how teams value good young defenseman. Also Lindholm isn't twice the player Fowler is.

 

[Hunter368]

Andersen and Lindholm were mentioned because it was relevant to this conversation imo. Players being good on this team because they are good, not because the team around them makes them good.(As in, the Ducks being a good team despite Fowler). For Andersen is was because the defense made him good, for Lindholm is was Kesler made him good (still have no idea how someone argued that..)

What I'm saying is Fowler played on a top pairing role while carrying Bieksa/lovejoy type players on the top pairing for years, and during those years the Ducks were still one of the top teams in the league. Fowler is a good complimentary #2 to play along side an actual #1. He can handle top pairing competition when given a good partner (pre-concussed Despres). Or he could be one of the best #3 defensemen, but imo that would be selling him short.

Also, his skillset is better used in an offensive role, but he's been tasked to be a shutdown role since we didn't have anyone better (this does agree with your point).

A player can easily preform above their pay grade, but could that do that for years? And can a team who has a player doing that still be a top team for years? I don't believe so. Are the Ducks good enough in surrounding areas to make up for Fowler playing above his paygrade for years? I don't believe so.

Individual and collective make up a team, both add to the other.....I think we agree on that. I think we only differ on Fowler playing over his head for years in a poor role for his skill set or is he really top pairing. IMO he's 2nd pairing, your opinion I think is he's a top pairing....we agree to disagree on that point.

 

[dracom]

IMO yes all of those players except Dano. IMO Dano+ would be reasonable and my top price (value wise).

Agree to disagree then. IMO, Dano is not that impressive or an attractive piece for Fowler. Dano had one good season, but hasn't been able to do much of anything since. Not too interested a deal with him as the main piece back for our #2 defensemen.

 

[dracom]

Individual and collective make up a team, both add to the other.....I think we agree on that. I think we only differ on Fowler playing over his head for years in a poor role for his skill set or is he really top pairing. IMO he's 2nd pairing, your opinion I think is he's a top pairing....we agree to disagree on that point.

Yeah, that's fair. We can agree to disagree there and leave it at that.

Much better conversation than I've had regarding Fowler before on here, so thanks for that. Have a good one!

 

[Liferleafer]

Take it as a reflection how Jets fans see Fowler.......and no I don't expect any Ducks fan to agree we know they over value him.

Hello Irony......

Fowler is worth much more than ANY of the OP's list.

 

[heretik27]

I think Dano/Petan are potentially closer value to Fowler, but not today. We still need to see them play a full season in the NHL. Petan's really impressed me since his call up at the end of last season and Dano's got a knack for scoring in those dirty areas around the net. A full year of them doing their thing and one less year of Fowler and I could see one of them being pretty fair game one for one. Today? The value just isn't established and I have no clue why the OP included a bunch of fringe NHL'rs / bottom 6 players when he said the basis was a trade for a top 6 winger.

Essentially, our top 6 winger prospects/young players Ehlers, Connor, Laine are too much value for Fowler at two years, but we don't have anything else that's one for one today on an ELC or helps their cap. Perhaps Dano/Petan + Lemieux is closest in value for Fowler today. Dano (0.925M RFA end of season), Petan (0.758M x 2 years RFA), Lemieux (0.839M x 3 years RFA). I guess the other thing one would need to know in a deal is how much cap space the Ducks need to shed to re-sign Lindholm and Rakell.

 

[HanSolo]

No more or less then any fans opinion

Well probably less than the opinions of fans who watch him every night. Yes, we're probably the most likely to overrate his value but we're also the ones with the most reliable and valid analysis of his game given that we've seen hundreds of his games where neutral fans have only double digits worth of exposure for the most part.

You say at best he's a 3/4 defenseman being asked to play above his station and that's just not true. When Fowler is at his best he is a very capable #2. He's not always at his best I'll grant you but he still isn't in his prime years. People forget how young Fowler still is. He hasn't hit his max potential. But he's shown he can be a #2 defenseman. He didn't make team USA's Olympic roster in 2010 by playing like a middling defenseman.

And like it or not, most of the guys listed in OP's post are not nearly as established as Fowler is. And Fowler is a cost controlled young asset. Any name on that list needs an add to make it worth Anaheim's while.

 

[Hunter368]

Nope, but seeing how you took it upon yourself to speak for "Jets fans" and how they value Fowler, i decided to respond to you.

Many of the players listed clearly wouldn't be the main piece in any Fowler trade.....that's already been established in the first few pages of the thread, so you're a bit late to the game. But I see you forgot to quote the equally silly posts about two years of Fowlers value being closer to Wheeler (top 5 RW in the NHL today) or Laine (elite prospect). So clearly there is a large divide between how jets fans vs ducks fans value Fowler. No shocker

Jvr for Fowler is much more reasonable

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

I respect your posts, your not being rude or disrespectful, I'm not trying to be either. But Connor is too much, some have predicted Conner out scores Laine this year, and if we go by preseason that's a very real possibility the kids been incredible. If Fowler was signed long term to a team friendly deal, that might change my answer or at least make me think longer about it. But two years of Fowlers isn't worth losing Connor. Pass

Yea I hear you, and id prob say the same thing if I was in the jets shoes(I'm big Michigan fan so I'm a bit biased on connor).... but from my ducks fan perspective I don't think its asking to much or to far out of the ball park(also taking into consideration wing is a position of strength for the jets), but def understand why thee jets wouldn't want to move him until they get to see him at an NHL level at least, and yes fowler only has 2 years left so there is no telling if fowler would be in peg after the contract is up.


As for respect, I like the jets as a team/fan base for the most part(see back to the playoff series threads)..... and if the ducks arnt in the playoffs id likely root for jets. I just feel fowler gets criminally under rated for what he is as a player and granted if thee team doesn't have the right partner for him he may not pan out for that team.

Its one of those things where what the jets would want to offer likely isn't really enough for where our team is as far as contending and money wise, and what thee ducks would want is likely a little more then the jets would want to pay. I'm perfectly okay with the Tatar + pick/prospect or Spooner + prospect proposals if something like that pans out... but if connor becomes available you just call mee and ill talk to my people

 

[Cambodian Fouler]

Many of the players listed clearly wouldn't be the main piece in any Fowler trade.....that's already been established in the first few pages of the thread, so you're a bit late to the game. But I see you forgot to quote the equally silly posts about two years of Fowlers value being closer to Wheeler (top 5 RW in the NHL today) or Laine (elite prospect). So clearly there is a large divide between how jets fans vs ducks fans value Fowler. No shocker

Jvr for Fowler is much more reasonable

Closer doesnt mean equal. Fowler is alot closer to Wheeler than what Dano is to Fowler. Its not that hard to understand.

 

[Hunter368]

Closer doesnt mean equal. Fowler is alot closer to Wheeler than what Dano is to Fowler. Its not that hard to understand.

In your opinion maybe, not mine. Yes that's easy to understand

 

[Hunter368]

Yea I hear you, and id prob say the same thing if I was in the jets shoes(I'm big Michigan fan so I'm a bit biased on connor).... but from my ducks fan perspective I don't think its asking to much or to far out of the ball park(also taking into consideration wing is a position of strength for the jets), but def understand why thee jets wouldn't want to move him until they get to see him at an NHL level at least, and yes fowler only has 2 years left so there is no telling if fowler would be in peg after the contract is up.


As for respect, I like the jets as a team/fan base for the most part(see back to the playoff series threads)..... and if the ducks arnt in the playoffs id likely root for jets. I just feel fowler gets criminally under rated for what he is as a player and granted if thee team doesn't have the right partner for him he may not pan out for that team.

Its one of those things where what the jets would want to offer likely isn't really enough for where our team is as far as contending and money wise, and what thee ducks would want is likely a little more then the jets would want to pay. I'm perfectly okay with the Tatar + pick/prospect or Spooner + prospect proposals if something like that pans out... but if connor becomes available you just call mee and ill talk to my people

Fair comments, I don't see a trade here at the moment. The difference between what the Jets would offer vs what the Ducks want us too great.......lets be honest I'm sure Fowler has crossed Chevy's mind, maybe even a call or two......and no trade to date so this is very possibly the real situation.

 

[The Abusement Park]

I'm sorry Ducks fans... Fowler is getting pretty underrated here. He's a great #3, but I think he's a #2, and I think something like Dano would not be a good starting piece at all, he could fetch a bigger player than that easily.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Fair comments, I don't see a trade here at the moment. The difference between what the Jets would offer vs what the Ducks want us too great.......lets be honest I'm sure Fowler has crossed Chevy's mind, maybe even a call or two......and no trade to date so this is very possibly the real situation.

The jets just always seemed to fit what we need and that is young skilled top 6 wing help, jets have a surplus... but honestly I always thought their defense looked decent on paper and was more of a goaltending problem then anything.


For whatever reason we draft big rough players in the drafts and never seem to go for those 1st round high skilled picks.... but getz perry and kelser time is running out and it would be nice to have some high impact forwards in our system to take over. I like Ritchie and think he could be like a lucic lite, jones and steel are interesting pieces idk how high I put their upside(I like jones a lot tho).. but outside of that not much else Nattinan is decent but I see him at tops 2c more likely a 3c.

 

[Zhamnov5GoalGame]

I actually feel Connors for Fowler is a pretty fair starting point. I know the biased talk will disagree or you guys will talk down Fowler... but I think that's the only player that would be reasonable I'd consider

Contract status makes this impossible. The biggest problem 90% of people have with Fowler is not his skill / ability but that he only has 2 years left on a contract that takes him to UFA. Connor is only in the first year of his ELC. It would be a bad idea to trade that control for a player who you can't guarantee will be around for long.

I can see why Ducks fans would want more but the premise is in line with helping your cap situation. Trading Fowler to a team for an ELC forward to clear cap space to sign your unsigned players is a good move. They keep saying now that cap space is a huge part of trades. That list of Jets players includes 3 first round picks by the way. (plus Lemieux was the first pick of the 2nd round so essentially a late first round pick. The poster also left Jack Roslovic off of the list. If the Jets could actually work out a trade of forwards for D then perhaps the Trouba trade plan could change to focus on returning forwards to replace those lost in a trade for a Fowler type player.

 

[Hunter368]

The jets just always seemed to fit what we need and that is young skilled top 6 wing help, jets have a surplus... but honestly I always thought their defense looked decent on paper and was more of a goaltending problem then anything.


For whatever reason we draft big rough players in the drafts and never seem to go for those 1st round high skilled picks.... but getz perry and kelser time is running out and it would be nice to have some high impact forwards in our system to take over. I like Ritchie and think he could be like a lucic lite, jones and steel are interesting pieces idk how high I put their upside(I like jones a lot tho).. but outside of that not much else Nattinan is decent but I see him at tops 2c more likely a 3c.

LHD has always been an issue for us, Stuart has played way too many games at top 4 LHD considering he's one of the worse dmen in the entire NHL and really shouldn't even be in the NHL full time. RHD has always been very good, especially since buff moved D full time. Our D prospect pool both sides isn't great. Our goaltending to date has been AHL worthy, Pavs is a piece of crap. Thank the lord this is his last year under contract. Forwards were now very strong depth and look very exciting up front. Helle and Comrie will fix our goaltending. We're still ok with buff and Myers on RHD for years. LHD we have Toby who is aging, really a 2nd pairing guy. Josh M who looks very good in TC and likely makes the team at LHD, maybe top 4. Stanley at LHD prospect was not a popular pick at the draft by most of our fans.

 

[nbducksfan19]

Please, give your head a shake. You don't get those guys for Lindholm who is twice the player Fowler is. This is why this conversation with Ducks fans is so much fun.

Oh the irony! You tell someone else to give there head a shake and then say one of the most hockey ignorant posts I've read, what a joke.