Forslund contract negotiations

[AD Skinner]

I haven't listened to the podcast, but I remember finding maniscalco unlistenable when he hosted the aftermath on the radio way back when. I've come around to him since hes moved to tv, but I think it's mostly because in that role he isn't really saying anything, just throwing it to other people to talk. Him and Tripp together are going to be something and I don't think it's going to be good- their public personas are too close to each other. John and Tripp worked because while Tripp was this sort of endearing dumbass, John was always putting out an air of professionalism. Tripp and Mike will be practically eating taco bell and pounding natty lights in the booth.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

I hadn’t thought of this angle either, but Tripp will now be the veteran of the broadcast. Interested to see how that works. Could be a disaster. Like when the fun uncle suddenly gets shoehorned into babysitter duty because everyone else has plans.

 

[Stickpucker]

I'm a little surprised that people seem upset at Dundon's negotiation tactics. It's been a while but after hindsight set in I recall a lot of wailing about the Ruutu and ?? contracts weighing down the team and how they just got paid for being fan favorites and what they had done, not what they will do.

I bet if TD was in charge those contracts never get signed. I wonder if there is a middle ground where you're less shrewd but not totally whimsical in your signings....but usually people gravitate towards one extreme or the other in their dealings...especially people who have a good amount of success.

I'm trying to approach this with an open mind. I've enjoyed John and Tripp both...maybe I have a higher tolerance for quirky personalities than some....but I don't think the broadcast will be ruined by John leaving.

Although....I will say if cloth seats are all you've known in your car and you go to fluffy soft leather it's really hard to go back to itchy cloth.

 

[LostInaLostWorld]

As others have stated, my viewing habits will change. Whenever I went to a game or could not watch the telecast I always recordered the pre and post shows as well as the game. I would then watch these to see what antics John and Tripp woud pull. That meant not fast forwarding through games because you never knew what one liner you might have missed. Doubt I will be doing that anymore.

Big picture I am leery of TD. He is a bit of a narcissist who cares about 3 things (in any order):
Winning
Making or at least not losing money on the Canes
His ego/self worth which is tied to 1 & 2

While I certainly agree on most of his moves, the way he has handled them are horrendous. He is an ice cold businessman with no feeling of nuance. I doubt loyalty to any person or thing that gets in the way of his objectives is in his makeup. Fans are consumers which help him achieve 1 & 2. Don't think for a minute if Houston offered him some $ and Bettman agreed, the Canes would be gone quicker than you can say Quebec City.

Still better him than PK the last few years of his ownership.

 

[Svechhammer]

I'm a little surprised that people seem upset at Dundon's negotiation tactics. It's been a while but after hindsight set in I recall a lot of wailing about the Ruutu and ?? contracts weighing down the team and how they just got paid for being fan favorites and what they had done, not what they will do.

I bet if TD was in charge those contracts never get signed. I wonder if there is a middle ground where you're less shrewd but not totally whimsical in your signings....but usually people gravitate towards one extreme or the other in their dealings...especially people who have a good amount of success.

I'm trying to approach this with an open mind. I've enjoyed John and Tripp both...maybe I have a higher tolerance for quirky personalities than some....but I don't think the broadcast will be ruined by John leaving.

Although....I will say if cloth seats are all you've known in your car and you go to fluffy soft leather it's really hard to go back to itchy cloth.

As others have stated, my viewing habits will change. Whenever I went to a game or could not watch the telecast I always recordered the pre and post shows as well as the game. I would then watch these to see what antics John and Tripp woud pull. That meant not fast forwarding through games because you never knew what one liner you might have missed. Doubt I will be doing that anymore.

Big picture I am leery of TD. He is a bit of a narcissist who cares about 3 things (in any order):
Winning
Making or at least not losing money on the Canes
His ego/self worth which is tied to 1 & 2

While I certainly agree on most of his moves, the way he has handled them are horrendous. He is an ice cold businessman with no feeling of nuance. I doubt loyalty to any person or thing that gets in the way of his objectives is in his makeup. Fans are consumers which help him achieve 1 & 2. Don't think for a minute if Houston offered him some $ and Bettman agreed, the Canes would be gone quicker than you can say Quebec City.

Still better him than PK the last few years of his ownership.

Once again, we don't know the details about how all of this is going down. Not at all. The only side from which we have heard from during all of this (Francis and Peters being let go, the Kaiton negotiation, and now Forsuld) are from essentially jilted lovers who are dealing with the fallout of the team having made a decision that they don't necessarily agree with. We don't know what kind of negotiation actually took place. We don't know the discussions, we don't know how much of a hardass Dundon is actually being here. What we do know is that we're only hearing from people bitter they didn't get their way on the way out the door, and I'll speak from experience here, that's probably not the right time to take everything that is said at face value. And, lets give the team some credit here, they very easily could take to the media and try to drag down those who are slamming them, but they stay above it allowing those people to move on. Other organizations would be quick to defend themselves.

This decision will not change my viewing habits. If the Canes are on, I'll watch. I really don't give a shit who is calling the game, I'll watch because I'm a fan of the team and not of the people broadcasting the games. Forslund has been a huge perk of being a Canes fan for the past 20 years, and if that is done, it sucks but that's life. Things change, and eventually everyone moves on. And if you're trying to tell me that having an owner who cares most about winning being a bad thing, that's how we devolved into the horrible irrelevant team that we had under Karmanos. Having an owner obsess about winning is a great problem to have and one that is very, very much welcome in this market after the mess we dealt with before he came in.

 

[LostInaLostWorld]

Once again, we don't know the details about how all of this is going down. Not at all. The only side from which we have heard from during all of this (Francis and Peters being let go, the Kaiton negotiation, and now Forsuld) are from essentially jilted lovers who are dealing with the fallout of the team having made a decision that they don't necessarily agree with. We don't know what kind of negotiation actually took place. We don't know the discussions, we don't know how much of a hardass Dundon is actually being here. What we do know is that we're only hearing from people bitter they didn't get their way on the way out the door, and I'll speak from experience here, that's probably not the right time to take everything that is said at face value. And, lets give the team some credit here, they very easily could take to the media and try to drag down those who are slamming them, but they stay above it allowing those people to move on. Other organizations would be quick to defend themselves.

This decision will not change my viewing habits. If the Canes are on, I'll watch. I really don't give a shit who is calling the game, I'll watch because I'm a fan of the team and not of the people broadcasting the games. Forslund has been a huge perk of being a Canes fan for the past 20 years, and if that is done, it sucks but that's life. Things change, and eventually everyone moves on. And if you're trying to tell me that having an owner who cares most about winning being a bad thing, that's how we devolved into the horrible irrelevant team that we had under Karmanos. Having an owner obsess about winning is a great problem to have and one that is very, very much welcome in this market after the mess we dealt with before he came in.

As I said I agree with most of his moves. It's the way he goes about them. If it was 1 or 2 people displaying if not anger, but utter disbelief and dissapointment in the way things turned out well maybe it is a case of jilted lovers (Kaiton I would put here). But it 's all of them.

There is enough evidence out there that it has been nothing but hardball in every public negotiation we've see. John was the most pro TD guy around. He is not one to kiss and tell. Yet he did just come out and say it was a take it or leave it deal, he countered and TD blew him off. So yeah, he is pissed.

Yes it is great to have an owner intent on winning. But long term? Either a) we win a cup relatively soon and TD gets his ups or b) we don't. Either way I could see TD getting bored with his toy and in it for income or to sell. It's not like he was a hockey guy with a dream of owning a team. Nor is it a local guy wanting to support his community. Ego and/or income.

I could be completely full of shit. Time will tell.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

Just recall, Dundon was shamed into paying the rank-and-file employees at the beginning of the pandemic (which I actually disagreed with - if the games aren’t played, why would Parking Attendant be paid for not coming into work?).

 

[Joe McGrath]

Just recall, Dundon was shamed into paying the rank-and-file employees at the beginning of the pandemic (which I actually disagreed with - if the games aren’t played, why would Parking Attendant be paid for not coming into work?).

Billionaire is a complete asshole. More at 11.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

Billionaire is a complete asshole. More at 11.

Yep, I get that. *Usually* there are limits and considerations with most owners toward the fan base, but more and more it seems like there aren’t with Dundon. “Win and they’ll come” is the mantra. And, it will probably work in the long run. I’m curious to see if there’s a breaking point.

 

[AD Skinner]

People will come to see a winner if they are allowed in the building. If they're not, they'll watch it on tv- and wouldn't you want their tv experience to be the best one around?

 

[LostInaLostWorld]

People will come to see a winner if they are allowed in the building. If they're not, they'll watch it on tv- and wouldn't you want their tv experience to be the best one around?

Exactly. A very short sighted move. God forbid the Canes start sucking again. Without JF I doubt I won't be the only one less engaged. Watch the ratings tank, thus TV revenue.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I'm gonna go ahead and play spoiler: the TV ratings will not tank because they changed PBP guys. There won't even be a measurable difference.

Tom Dundon knows this and it is the reason neither Forslund nor Kaiton are with the team. He's an investor by trade, and spending a premium on PBP has little to zero dividend.

I hate that we won't have John around any more, but this is a business move and people thinking they know business better than Dundon are probably wrong.

 

[the halleJOKEL]

I'm gonna go ahead and play spoiler: the TV ratings will not tank because they changed PBP guys. There won't even be a measurable difference.

Tom Dundon knows this and it is the reason neither Forslund nor Kaiton are with the team. He's an investor by trade, and spending a premium on PBP has little to zero dividend.

I hate that we won't have John around any more, but this is a business move and people thinking they know business better than Dundon are probably wrong.

i am jeff bezos, actually

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

I'm gonna go ahead and play spoiler: the TV ratings will not tank because they changed PBP guys. There won't even be a measurable difference.

Tom Dundon knows this and it is the reason neither Forslund nor Kaiton are with the team. He's an investor by trade, and spending a premium on PBP has little to zero dividend.

I hate that we won't have John around any more, but this is a business move and people thinking they know business better than Dundon are probably wrong.

Agreed on all fronts. I will say fan goodwill is more difficult to measure but affects everything to some degree. My continued outrage is somewhat fabricated in order to make that known.

 

[LostInaLostWorld]

I'm gonna go ahead and play spoiler: the TV ratings will not tank because they changed PBP guys. There won't even be a measurable difference.

Tom Dundon knows this and it is the reason neither Forslund nor Kaiton are with the team. He's an investor by trade, and spending a premium on PBP has little to zero dividend.

I hate that we won't have John around any more, but this is a business move and people thinking they know business better than Dundon are probably wrong.

Agreed. That is my point. TD sees the world in pure "business" mode. Is there any passion for that business? Only in winning=profits. So I do not expect anything else from him. (Some sports franchise owners do care more for their sport and community than others and do not operate in completely analytical business terms. The big payoff is longterm when they sell the franchise).

All the talk of TD as "savior" is wonderful in the short term. Do not know about long term. He becomes bored or worse the franchise drains cash then he could become the uber PK.

 

[Daeavorn]

He's a dick, but give him credit: he is a shrewd motherf***er.

You know... in some ways Dundon reminds me of Jerruh Jones. Oh god.

 

[emptyNedder]

Just recall, Dundon was shamed into paying the rank-and-file employees at the beginning of the pandemic (which I actually disagreed with - if the games aren’t played, why would Parking Attendant be paid for not coming into work?).

This is back to my point and @saraciv420 really needs to ask some tough questions. Several players donated money and the foundation was used. Do we know if Dundon paid anyone with his funds?

 

[A Star is Burns]

I'm gonna go ahead and play spoiler: the TV ratings will not tank because they changed PBP guys. There won't even be a measurable difference.

Tom Dundon knows this and it is the reason neither Forslund nor Kaiton are with the team. He's an investor by trade, and spending a premium on PBP has little to zero dividend.

I hate that we won't have John around any more, but this is a business move and people thinking they know business better than Dundon are probably wrong.

Seriously. People keep bring up the value of the product at home if people can't go to games, but he knows that most are going to watch regardless. Even more so in that situation. Yes, we've had a handful of hardcore fans here that have said they will find other means (I bet even that doesn't happen 100% of the time), but most just won't bother, and it won't move the needle. If there is only one way for the majority of people to watch, during normal times or pandemic times, it doesn't matter who is calling the game to the bottom line.

 

[Svechhammer]

I'm gonna go ahead and play spoiler: the TV ratings will not tank because they changed PBP guys. There won't even be a measurable difference.

Tom Dundon knows this and it is the reason neither Forslund nor Kaiton are with the team. He's an investor by trade, and spending a premium on PBP has little to zero dividend.

I hate that we won't have John around any more, but this is a business move and people thinking they know business better than Dundon are probably wrong.

Yeah this is pretty much spot on.

Much like the situation with our AHL affiliate, its been great having the team in Charlotte, but at the end of the day the number of people who will stop following the Canes because our affiliate isn't the Checkers anymore, or because Forslund isn't the PBP guy on Fox Sports Carolinas anymore are negligible.

At the end of the day, the only thing that fans care about is winning. Period. If the team is winning, fans will buy tickets, the stadium will sell out, merchandise will fly off the shelves, and things will be great. If the team perennially sucks, you'll have a half filled arena on a good day with little to no support throughout the region. Dundon knows this, hell, he bought a team that followed the perennially sucking blueprint and he has the numbers to show how much winning impacts the bottom line vs whoever is on the TV or radio call.

It sucks, but that's life. Heck, its part of having a franchise owned by someone who is invested in making it work. I'd much rather have him here trying to actively improve and streamline everything rather than just give out contracts and blank checks because that's the way it had always been done here before. It shows he's invested in this team and this market, which is something we haven't had here in the 15 years before.

 

[emptyNedder]

people thinking they know business better than Dundon are probably wrong.

Because I spent several years reading analysis of why/how the 2007 financial crisis happened, I tend to see "business people" differently. They don't really know business better, they are more committed to making money—thus the C-suite folks at the big banks made a ton while almost destroying the worldwide economy.

We forget that Dundon bankrupted a restaurant business and sank $70M into a failing football league. He was really good at adapting the model that almost destroyed the economy to another segment of lending. From my perspective, that doesn't make him shrewd or even committed to winning.

 

[Svechhammer]

Because I spent several years reading analysis of why/how the 2007 financial crisis happened, I tend to see "business people" differently. They don't really know business better, they are more committed to making money—thus the C-suite folks at the big banks made a ton while almost destroying the worldwide economy.

We forget that Dundon bankrupted a restaurant business and sank $70M into a failing football league. He was really good at adapting the model that almost destroyed the economy to another segment of lending. From my perspective, that doesn't make him shrewd or even committed to winning.

This very much sounds like "I watched a couple videos on YouTube and read some articles online and now I think I know more than the experts" mindset that we are dealing with regarding COVID, wearing masks, and even the anti-vax movement.

Reading a few articles doesn't mean you understand anything about what it takes to run a 6 or 7 figure business

 

[emptyNedder]

This very much sounds like "I watched a couple videos on YouTube and read some articles online and now I think I know more than the experts" mindset that we are dealing with regarding COVID, wearing masks, and even the anti-vax movement.

Reading a few articles doesn't mean you understand anything about what it takes to run a 6 or 7 figure business

OK then. I was really the only person I know who was able to explain the difference between a CDO and CDS. My best friend was the senior economist at a public/private think tank and we spent hours discussing what happened—and I had to explain rent seeking to him. I didn't read a a few articles, I spent significant time every day reading Brad DeLong, Mark Thoma, Noah Smith, Chris Dillow and others.

You may not recall but the nearly unanimous opinion on this board was that Dundon's football league investment happened because he "knew" that he was buying the statistical/fantasy app. The only reason it wasn't unanimous is because I was the only one who said that he was likely not that smart and it was a worthless investment.
By the way my mindset is that science and its experts are correct.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Agreed. That is my point. TD sees the world in pure "business" mode. Is there any passion for that business? Only in winning=profits. So I do not expect anything else from him. (Some sports franchise owners do care more for their sport and community than others and do not operate in completely analytical business terms. The big payoff is longterm when they sell the franchise).

All the talk of TD as "savior" is wonderful in the short term. Do not know about long term. He becomes bored or worse the franchise drains cash then he could become the uber PK.

Let's take it for granted that Dundon is a soulless, money-making robot whose sole interest is increasing his own profits to the exclusion of all else.

What will increase Tom Dundon's profits to the greatest possible degree? The Carolina Hurricanes becoming a much more valuable franchise that he can ruthlessly sell off.

What will make the Carolina Hurricanes a more valuable franchise? If lots of people watch them, buy merchandise, follow them on social media, etc. If sponsors pour revenue into ads. If the Centennial Authority dumps money into the arena. Basically, if they make tons of revenue.

What will make the Hurricanes increase revenue the fastest?
a) Spending more money on the media crew
b) Spending more money on the team

It's pretty clear which of these directions Dundon has chosen, and he has gone all-in on that choice. Unless he's woefully wrong, option B will mean a better hockey team, which will mean more fans, which will mean more revenue, which means an increase in franchise value, which means he probably will attempt to dump the franchise in the foreseeable future. And the kind of buyer who takes over will be the kind of person/organization which can spend close to a billion dollars on a hockey team. Which means no used car salesmen or 90s software guys in the lineup. It means an owner who's well capitalized to see us through downturns without having to worry if we'll never see our team again.

At that point, we win. And we'll squabble about who calls our games on TV because we're not squabbling about much more serious things. I'm OK with this plan.

Because I spent several years reading analysis of why/how the 2007 financial crisis happened, I tend to see "business people" differently. They don't really know business better, they are more committed to making money—thus the C-suite folks at the big banks made a ton while almost destroying the worldwide economy.

We forget that Dundon bankrupted a restaurant business and sank $70M into a failing football league. He was really good at adapting the model that almost destroyed the economy to another segment of lending. From my perspective, that doesn't make him shrewd or even committed to winning.

OK then. I was really the only person I know who was able to explain the difference between a CDO and CDS. My best friend was the senior economist at a public/private think tank and we spent hours discussing what happened—and I had to explain rent seeking to him. I didn't read a a few articles, I spent significant time every day reading Brad DeLong, Mark Thoma, Noah Smith, Chris Dillow and others.

You may not recall but the nearly unanimous opinion on this board was that Dundon's football league investment happened because he "knew" that he was buying the statistical/fantasy app. The only reason it wasn't unanimous is because I was the only one who said that he was likely not that smart and it was a worthless investment.
By the way my mindset is that science and its experts are correct.

I mean, I've been reading up on hockey every day for the past two or three decades. I can talk over my friends' heads about hockey if I need to. I can sit here and criticize decisions made by Hall of Fame executives.

If you put me in charge of an NHL team, I would drive it straight into the ground because I wouldn't know what the **** I was doing. Being well-read on a topic is not the same thing as being good at it.

 

[LostInaLostWorld]

Let's take it for granted that Dundon is a soulless, money-making robot whose sole interest is increasing his own profits to the exclusion of all else.

What will increase Tom Dundon's profits to the greatest possible degree?

What will make the Hurricanes increase revenue the fastest?
a) Spending more money on the media crew
b) Spending more money on the team

It's pretty clear which of these directions Dundon has chosen, and he has gone all-in on that choice. Unless he's woefully wrong, option B will mean a better hockey team, which will mean more fans, which will mean more revenue, which means an increase in franchise value, which means he probably will attempt to dump the franchise in the foreseeable future. And the kind of buyer who takes over will be the kind of person/organization which can spend close to a billion dollars on a hockey team. Which means no used car salesmen or 90s software guys in the lineup. It means an owner who's well capitalized to see us through downturns without having to worry if we'll never see our team again.

At that point, we win. And we'll squabble about who calls our games on TV because we're not squabbling about much more serious things. I'm OK with this plan.





I mean, I've been reading up on hockey every day for the past two or three decades. I can talk over my friends' heads about hockey if I need to. I can sit here and criticize decisions made by Hall of Fame executives.

If you put me in charge of an NHL team, I would drive it straight into the ground because I wouldn't know what the **** I was doing. Being well-read on a topic is not the same thing as being good at it.

Why not both? If TD is as wealthy as the quoted $2b then shelling out some cash for a play by play guy who is arguably the best in the business should not be a problem. Especially for a one year deal that could have been negotiated in good faith and then renegotiated as times got better.

I'm not a billionaire but did take a business with 2 other owners from $2 million to $40+ million in sales in 9 years before we sold it. Though I can't say I wouldn't run a hockey team or anything else into the ground either.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Why not both? If TD is as wealthy as the quoted $2b then shelling out some cash for a play by play guy who is arguably the best in the business should not be a problem. Especially for a one year deal that could have been negotiated in good faith and then renegotiated as times got better.

Because it is, from a business standpoint, a waste of money.

If he can spend $100K to retain Forslund or $100K on a better goalie, which of those do you really want?