Forslund contract negotiations

[My Special Purpose]

On one hand, it sucks that Forslund is gone. He is one of the best out there, and it'll be sad not having him on the games.

At the same time, you're only hearing his side of the story here. On its surface hearing about a "drastic" paycut with the remainder of base salary tied to attendance sounds bad, but we also have to realize there's a very real possibility that, outside of TV advertising, they're not going to be making any money for the next 12-24 months. Half the front office has already been furloughed and if we aren't going to be allowing fans in the arena until 2022, those furloughs could very well turn into outright layoffs. Tough decisions are having to be made everywhere.

And that's before we remember that we have already heard that Forslund spoke with Tampa about their opening, and they passed because he wanted a very high salary with guaranteed time away to pursue national broadcasts on NBC. And that's before we remember that we know the team already asked Kaiton to do work online as part of his role should he stay with the team, and you have to think we'd have been asking the same of John.

And then you realize that we might already have a suitable (won't be as good, but will still be good, and won't be terrible) replacement on staff in Mike Maniscalco who is already a part of the online presence of the team, won't be asking for time away to pursue work in the same field you've hired him for, and likely costs a lot less than what Forslund currently makes. I mean, it sucks, but I kind of understand how and why Dundon was willing to play hardball here.

This is a good point. It would be worth knowing how long of a contract Dundon was insisting Forslund sign at these terms. A one- or even a two-year deal tied to attendance could be pretty fair, knowing what we know about what revenues are going to look like for the next 18 months. Johnny just got unlucky that his deal was up in the summer of COVID.

On top of that, he's been working on a series of short-term and one-year deals for the last several seasons, even before Dundon, which can't be common for somebody of his stature. I'd assume most iconic play-by-play guys are on multi-year deals. I don't know if that's his choice, but it does span multiple owners, and I know we've inconvenienced a lot of electrons over the past 10 years talking about John Forslund's contract situation. If so, Johnny gambled that the money would always be there for him and lost. He can't get too upset about that.

 

[GoldiFox]

Maniscalco might have his golden chance to prove he is an adequate replacement. If he does well then I doubt the Canes even try to bridge the gap with Forslund. If he sucks out loud then hopefully the Canes get enough complaints that it forces them to re-think their offer. Although it muddies the discussion a bit if Forslund is going to be doing the NBC feed for Canes games. I can't imagine any single Canes fan would prefer to watch Fox Sports South when Forslund is on NBC.

 

[Svechhammer]

How confident are we that he'll be good? He's done this just a few times and it was on a broadcast that most of us skipped anyway (at least I did). He's a between periods guy, not a play-by-play guy. To me that's like saying "he's worked the checkout line at Wal-Mart before, he'll make a fine auctioneer". Different skillsets. Sure he's comfortable on TV, but his big weakness is not saying anything of substance (interview questions that answer themselves, run-on sentences as Sens mentioned, etc.), which won't really fly when he has to say things of substance live in reaction to things happening in front of him at very high speeds.

I'm pulling for him because he's a part of the family. But let's not pretend these aren't massive shoes to fill by a guy that's never really done this before.

Don't confuse an ability to toss up a softball question to players on the team for an inability to provide anything of substance. He knows hockey pretty well and is pretty witty on the fly during the CanesCast podcasts he does with Michael Smith. And last year in the playoffs he showed a bit of a natural ability to handle local PBP, where it actually wasn't terrible, even though it has room to improve.

 

[A Star is Burns]

Negotiating with this team appears to be just brutal. The hardline tactics started with Lindholm and have seemingly touched every area of the organization from the players (Faulk) to management (original GM search and then Waddell) to non-hockey personnel (Forslund) since. Squeezing everyone seems counterintuitive when the commitment to spending at a global level is there. Who knows? Maybe this is all for sport.

It's just worrisome; the strategy almost blew up in the team's face already (Aho offersheet).

And what of the folks that have signed without much drama? Do you think it was brutal to negotiate with this regime for Gardiner, Dzingel, Williams, Mrazek, Martinook, de Haan, Turbo, and probably more? I'm not saying they are easy to negotiate with for everyone. Clearly, they are willing to use hard line tactics in some situations. But placing a value on something and not budging too far off of it is not the worst thing in the world. It's actually been a pretty good thing for the on ice product to this point.

Also, @Svechhammer summarized it all quite well, and as much as I don't love Forslund leaving, it's not necessarily the wrong thing to do with so much uncertainty. As I mentioned before though, it's easy to spend someone else's money and paint them the villain for one guy not accepting the economic realities everyone else did. I'm sure this will be met with the, oh, but he countered with a different offer. But if the economics don't match up, then there really just may not have been that much room for negotiation. That doesn't make either side evil.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Going out on a limb:

We'll have a woman doing PBP this time next year, and Dundon will have his feel-good story to move everyone past this.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Mike Maniscalco is literally going to explode. He finishes all of his sentences out of breath, and not because he’s a big guy, but because he doesn’t know what a period is. It’s ok to pause. But he doesn’t. He is hockey’s run-on sentence, and I don’t look forward to listening to him.

you suck, Dundon. A big bag of dicks.

I had to laugh at that. It's true though.

 

[A Star is Burns]

Going out on a limb:

We'll have a woman doing PBP this time next year, and Dundon will have his feel-good story to move everyone past this.

On the one hand, we know he knows how to keep the team in the news cycle. On the other hand, I don't know that he cares too much about moving anyone past this. He's betting most people will tune in regardless, and I still think he's correct ultimately.

I do think it'd be funny if this happened, because there would probably be a lot of head exploding out there if that happened.

 

[tarheelhockey]

It'd be weird if Forslund's main beef was with Stormy. "I don't care how much money you give me, either he goes or I do"

 

[Lempo]

It'd be weird if Forslund's main beef was with Stormy. "I don't care how much money you give me, either he goes or I do"

Well. Not to put too fine a point on it, but this team chooses to rather employ two hogs than John.

 

[Surrounded By Ahos]

Going out on a limb:

We'll have a woman doing PBP this time next year, and Dundon will have his feel-good story to move everyone past this.

This really wouldn't shock me. Dundon seems to love getting the team into the spotlight, and hiring a female PBP person would get everyone talking about the HCanes.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

This really wouldn't shock me. Dundon seems to love getting the team into the spotlight, and hiring a female PBP person would get everyone talking about the HCanes.

He's a dick, but give him credit: he is a shrewd motherf***er.

 

[hblueridgegal]

When was the last time Maniscalco has done play-by-play? I only recall Shaya filling in for Forslund in the recent past.

Wish I was more of fan of his but the podcast turned me off. I find the condescension in his delivery and blinding homerism to be unbearable.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Wish I was more of fan of his but the podcast turned me off. I find the condescension in his delivery and blinding homerism to be unbearable.

Michael Smith, on the other hand, is a delight.

 

[hblueridgegal]

Michael Smith, on the other hand, is a delight.

Yes, he is. I think he navigates the tricky situations that management puts him in quite well, too.

I have noticed they essentially have the same PR and social process every time they drop a stink bomb on the fanbase. The social accounts go quiet, they trot out a Aho or Svech gif, Waddell does some spindoctoring..someone who handles their active listening posts soft counter replies around social and on the forums.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Yes, he is. I think he navigates the tricky situations that management puts him in quite well, too.

I know what you mean. As opposed to the occasional diatribe from Mike that’s basically “I know you fans are all saying this, and that, and blah blah blah, but it’s FINE. Calm down.” over anything the fans might not like. You’re right, condescending, I could never put a word to it but it always bugged me.

Outside of Mike getting on his soapbox every few episodes though, I think the show is pretty good.

 

[Svechhammer]

I know what you mean. As opposed to the occasional diatribe from Mike that’s basically “I know you fans are all saying this, and that, and blah blah blah, but it’s FINE. Calm down.” over anything the fans might not like. You’re right, condescending, I could never put a word to it but it always bugged me.

Outside of Mike getting on his soapbox every few episodes though, I think the show is pretty good.

What makes you think the "everything is FINE, we are done here" isn't exactly what our front office wants him to be saying?

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

What makes you think the "everything is FINE, we are done here" isn't exactly what our front office wants him to be saying?

1) I’m sure it is, and it’s a tough line to walk. John does it masterfully, telling it like it is while still toeing the company line, and we’re specifically talking about Mike in the context of him replacing John, so it’s relevant.

2) If that’s what he’s being told to do, but he’s coming off as condescending to multiple people individually (this isn’t groupthink, I’ve found myself disagreeing with him to the point of saying “oh come on” out loud to the podcast in my car a few times, atypical for me), is that not a valid critique?

Mike is a part of the family and I’m rooting for him. He also bugs me in some ways. He’s also, and this is probably the biggest part, getting his “big break” in a way that none of us want him to, and we’re mad about it in a way that has nothing to do with him. You’re right that we shouldn’t take it out on him, it’s not his fault John is gone. But blueridge’s annoyance with the podcast was like a lightbulb in my head of line “YES. That’s why it annoys me so much every few episodes” and I added. I still listen to the podcast, so I clearly like the guy on some level.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

And what of the folks that have signed without much drama? Do you think it was brutal to negotiate with this regime for Gardiner, Dzingel, Williams, Mrazek, Martinook, de Haan, Turbo, and probably more? I'm not saying they are easy to negotiate with for everyone. Clearly, they are willing to use hard line tactics in some situations. But placing a value on something and not budging too far off of it is not the worst thing in the world. It's actually been a pretty good thing for the on ice product to this point.

Also, @Svechhammer summarized it all quite well, and as much as I don't love Forslund leaving, it's not necessarily the wrong thing to do with so much uncertainty. As I mentioned before though, it's easy to spend someone else's money and paint them the villain for one guy not accepting the economic realities everyone else did. I'm sure this will be met with the, oh, but he countered with a different offer. But if the economics don't match up, then there really just may not have been that much room for negotiation. That doesn't make either side evil.

de Haan, Gardiner and Dzingel were external UFAs. There was actually drama when it came to Williams' bonuses; how much of the public flirtation with other teams had to do with cap considerations relative to squeezing him is unknown. Mrzaek went into the early evening of July 1st unsigned and was effectively left with no other goalie musical chair at that point. I'll grant Martinook and Teravainen, albeit they were more private negotiations.

I'm not trying to demonize Dundon. I appreciate that he's putting forth the resources to compete. Forslund, as much as he means to me as an out of town fan, has no effect on what ultimately is the most important thing: a competitive on-ice product. The players do, however. I just think there may be consequences in taking the hardline constantly. Hamilton is going to be a huge test of that. They can't replace a player like that externally. If they present him with a take it or leave it in the fall and he says no, the team will come out weaker. Pesce, Teravainen and Aho will be in a similar situation a little less than 3 years from now. Aho’s first negotiation was contentious. I don't want to see what should be an extended window of that competitive on-ice product close prematurely.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

I'm a little peeved that Dundon keeps taking beloved figures, big parts of this organization's history and identity, and removing them with seemingly no attempts to find a solution that keeps them around.

Francis, Kaiton, and now Forslund, all of which shown the door, with all three painting a less than stellar image of Dundon's negotiation tactics.

He's got to learn the difference between a team and an organization, and realize that you can spend oodles on a team, but still have unhappy fans if you neglect the organization

 

[Svechhammer]

I'm a little peeved that Dundon keeps taking beloved figures, big parts of this organization's history and identity, and removing them with seemingly no attempts to find a solution that keeps them around.

Francis, Kaiton, and now Forslund, all of which shown the door, with all three painting a less than stellar image of Dundon's negotiation tactics.

He's got to learn the difference between a team and an organization, and realize that you can spend oodles on a team, but still have unhappy fans if you neglect the organization

We keep winning and making the playoffs and the fans won't care.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

We keep winning and making the playoffs and the fans won't care.

We've got a 24-page thread about Forslund's contract negotiations, and the general consensus appears to be "This sucks and I hate it". I don't know how you can get "don't care" from that.

 

[A Star is Burns]

We've got a 24-page thread about Forslund's contract negotiations, and the general consensus appears to be "This sucks and I hate it". I don't know how you can get "don't care" from that.

We moved on and were plenty happy after letting go of the previously mentioned Ronnie and Chuck and those emotional attachments. If we continue to have a great team after this move, this too shall fade.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

We moved on and were plenty happy after letting go of the previously mentioned Ronnie and Chuck and those emotional attachments. If we continue to have a great team after this move, this too shall fade.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm still a bit miffed that Francis isn't part of this organization in some capacity, and that his departure was a rocky one, to put it nicely.

 

[A Star is Burns]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm still a bit miffed that Francis isn't part of this organization in some capacity, and that his departure was a rocky one, to put it nicely.

I'm sure there are plenty. I don't particularly care but it'd be nice for the fence to be mended some day. However, I seriously doubt many people spend a ton of time thinking about it when the team is playing and playing well.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

We moved on and were plenty happy after letting go of the previously mentioned Ronnie and Chuck and those emotional attachments. If we continue to have a great team after this move, this too shall fade.

Francis was responsible for making the team competitive and wasn’t doing so. I wish it would’ve been different and don’t like the burned bridge but I get it, and the team has been way better since then.

I don’t have nearly the emotional connection to Chuck and frankly prefer John and Tripp on the radio, but was slightly annoyed at how it went down. Ultimately it didn’t affect me because since getting NHL.tv and unlimited data on my phone I hadn’t listened to Chuck for years, even while driving I’d just put John and Tripp on.

Losing John, though, fundamentally changes the way I watch hockey and have watched hockey since I was 8 years old. John was producing, according to the Athletic article, better than anyone in the league. He is the primary conduit to the fans, the best one in the whole league, and he was shown the door.

Even if the Canes win the Stanley Cup the next 5 years in a row, this materially changes the way I consume the product.