Confirmed with Link: Flyers trade Cutter Gauthier to Anaheim for Jamie Drysdale and 2025 2nd round pick

[GKJ]

(EDIT)

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[Gregor Samsa]

It’s a good question but if you don’t get his signature on a contract I wouldn’t give you anything. I believe that Gauthier had chats with Hayes and one topic was whether it would be worth it to play four seasons in college and then be a UFA like Hayes did when he skipped out on the Blackhawks in ‘14. It’ll be interesting to see if he signs with the Ducks.

Yeah I’m sure this drama isn’t done and more will probably eventually be known

Just trying to do some dialectical type of exercise. It’s always easy to say you want player A for player B, but if you were on the other side do you give up player A for player B? I don’t think Cutter was bringing a stud prospect back. The other team would have no reason to trade the stud prospect so they would have to like Cutter more. It would essentially be shuffling deck chairs for the sake of shuffling deck chairs and I don’t think you do that if you’re a real GM with skin in the game. I don’t think Briere did too bad

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Imagine thinking you can confidently say you get the best deal available on a player that you had * checks notes* 2.5 additional years to either convince to sign, or alternatively, continue to shop around in the event that something else in the landscape changes.



You edited before i could get the response in. We're talking Infalliable GMs here, not young immature kids and people who probably dont even need a wheelchair, but have one anyway.

And wait a second, Briere was handed a shitty situation? How’s that possible when Fletcher only made one mistake?!?

 

[Starat327]

I’m not going to “confidently say” anything about the merits of this trade, but I am once again asking, what kind of a trade would you have pursued on the condition that Gauthier was not going to sign?

Doesn’t have to be anything that was rumored. Who or what would *you* have preferred?

In transparency, that wasnt directed at you.

That said, i wouldn't have explored a trade now unless it involved a 2024 draft pick. I'd have preferred to wait until this summer. If he doesnt want to play and wants to finish out the season, go for it. Theres nothing lost for anyone here at this point.

More options that could have opened up, potentially, in the summer that may have been worth exploring, when teams arent cap strapped, or have different needs, or are willing/unwilling to mopve certain pieces.

And wait a second, Briere was handed a shitty situation? How’s that possible when Fletcher only made one mistake?!?

Well, Fletcher inherited an equally shitty situation, obviously. You know, 17M or so in cap space, oodles of promising prospects, etc. You couldnt have asked for a shittier situation, to be honest.

 

[deadhead]

My best guess is Gauthier wanted to sign with an assurance he would play center in the NHL right off the bat and the Flyers felt he needed more time at center in college to develop. Then when Gauthier excelled at the World Championship, he convinced himself the Flyers are blind to his talent and decided never to sign.

I could see that also putting them into a corner, if Gauthier thought he was 1C material and they looked at his play and saw at best a middle of the road 2C - they could see a player/coach conflict (with any HC, not just torts) when Gauthier sulked b/c he wasn't used the way he thought he should be. Especially if he went on a goal scoring streak and thought that absolved him of having to play defense or back check, which is required to play center in this scheme.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Spoiler: Kevin Hayes’ response with NSFW words.

View attachment 799123

He responded on an instagram post with “This guy is a f***ing clown and making shit up”

Like Hayes would admit to it

 

[BritainStix]

So you’re saying you only want sunshine and rainbows and to ignore anything questionable about the team?

No wonder you believe.

That doesn't even closely resemble anything I've said. Are Mods meant to throw strawman arguments around here? Because that one is flat out embarrassing.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

These debates are deeply weird to me. Either they thought he was a secondary piece and all of this is fine or they thought he was a primary one and they should have made absolutely sure it wouldn't be a problem before they did it.

I don't know which it is, but I do know that my opinion on Gauthier shouldn't matter in any way in a discussion of their process.

 

[Starat327]

These debates are deeply weird to me. Either they thought he was a secondary piece and all of this is fine or they thought he was a primary one and they should have made absolutely sure it wouldn't be a problem before they did it.

I don't know which it is, but I do know that my opinion on Gauthier shouldn't matter in any way in a discussion of their process.

Id ask your opinion on this though -- do you spend a top 5 pick on a secondary piece? In your opinion, of course.

 

[Random Forest]

In transparency, that wasnt directed at you.

That said, i wouldn't have explored a trade now unless it involved a 2024 draft pick. I'd have preferred to wait until this summer. If he doesnt want to play and wants to finish out the season, go for it. Theres nothing lost for anyone here at this point.

More options that could have opened up, potentially, in the summer that may have been worth exploring, when teams arent cap strapped, or have different needs, or are willing/unwilling to mopve certain pieces.

I get it, but I’m asking, what does that trade look like to you in the ideal scenario? Let’s say the landscape opens up this summer. What does the Gauthier trade look like then? Is it for a first round pick? How high? Is it for another 1-for-1 prospect? There is a finite list of 1-for-1 players that could command Gauthier’s value in a trade, so I’m curious what those names are to you that you think could have opened up.

 

[VladDrag]

1. Clearly in this case, the opinion in question — that signing Gauthier in spring 2023 would have been a bad move — would have been a poor judgment based on incomplete information. So maybe more than that?

2. I am obviously no stranger to the plight of being a Flyers fan. I share 100% of that frustration. What I don’t share is the despondent misanthropy. Mostly I’m just in favor of measured analysis of what the hell is going on. I get why this exists — where I find it interesting On Here is that the misanthropy has turned a bunch of otherwise reasonable analysts of the Flyers into blind cynics that think everything is confirmation of their assessment that Everything Is Wrong. Related to point #1, there’s an arrogance in believing that whatever happened must have been the wrong course of action; it’s just as arrogant as blindly affirming everything that transpires.

In response to number 1. I'm talking in general. At what point is anyone allowed to formulate an opinion? Sure, people would have thought that signing Gauthier in Sprin 2023 was a bad move. But in the Spring of 2023, would you expect to be privy to the information that we know today? The answer is a resounding no. If you're position is that you're never allowed to formulate an opinion unless you have all of the information, you'll never be able to make an opinion. I feel I should also mention that opinions are allowed to be incorrect at the time.

In response to number 2, In a vacuum I get what you're saying to a degree. I guess I would just ask this, Flyers done over the last 5 years that instills confidence? Sure, they've gotten a few small things right, but what have they done that makes you think they have turned it around? To me, and many here, very little. That's the issue at hand. At some point, you call a spade a spade.

And not for nothing, they just lost what they felt was a top prospect, because of their incorrect manuvering.

 

[Starat327]

I get it, but I’m asking, what does that trade look like to you in the ideal scenario? Let’s say the landscape opens up this summer. What does the Gauthier trade look like then? Is it for a first round pick? How high? Is it for another 1-for-1 prospect? There is a finite list of 1-for-1 players that could command Gauthier’s value in a trade, so I’m curious what those names are to you that you think could have opened up.

I dont project to understand what players could or couldnt have been available, so im not going to engage in specifics.

I think my ideal would have been to focus those efforts on a high first round pick and dedicate it to a replacement center prospect (since we have exactly one good C below the age of 30 on a rebuilding team, and nothing left in the pipeline that projects to be one, aside from the one we've been dicking around the lineup for a few years) or a roughly equivalent C prospect that a team cant get under contract for whatever reason, but feels they can replace with a lesser player, etc).

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

I don't even need a similar pick, if you mean top 5; which you probably don't because you said similar and not matching. Top 10 and a 2nd would please me. Gimme quantity.

With Drysdale's fragile Victorian consumption-child body, I struggle to mark him as "quantity." There's a very good chance the return here effectively becomes just the 2nd. Dude has to actually be here to be here. I do not like that chance given this team's history.

This is 100% what I would have preferred too, especially in a draft this balls-deep in potential 1D's.

 

[Winston Wolf]

If Gauthier is half as petty as I am, I hope he and his team release an official statement tomorrow with all of the facts right as the game starts.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Id ask your opinion on this though -- do you spend a top 5 pick on a secondary piece? In your opinion, of course.

It's so hard to have these discussions because that year's 5OA was worth exactly what you would trade for the top rated player on your board at the time.

I didn't love the pick. I wanted to move down. But it also wasn't Bonk. And now that I know all of this was going on and they still used positional priority to justify that pick, that's where my real anger is.

 

[Curufinwe]

Literally no one would have suggested Briere should make this trade if Gauthier was happy to sign in Philly. So we don't need the Flyers Defense Force parachuting in to pretend like this is a good situation.

 

[BritainStix]

I’m not going to “confidently say” anything about the merits of this trade, but I am once again asking, what kind of a trade would you have pursued on the condition that Gauthier was not going to sign?

Doesn’t have to be anything that was rumored. Who or what would *you* have preferred?

Interesting that this is the second person that won't answer this question.

They hate the trade, but literally can't substitute a valid trade they would have preferred.

The Value of Cutter doesn't go up at this point. They were trying to move him for an entire year.

 

[Starat327]

It's so hard to have these discussions because that year's 5OA was worth exactly what you would trade for the top rated player on your board at the time.

I didn't love the pick. I wanted to move down. But it also wasn't Bonk. And now that I know all of this was going on and they still used positional priority to justify that pick, that's where my real anger is.

Yeah, i mean obviously each draft is a little different, and we both know NHL franchises are, as a general rule, skeptical about trade downs in general). It just feels like if you commit to taking a player at #5, you have to like them as a decent piece, especially given the amount of assets your organization had recently hemorrhaged in recent times prior to the pick and were considering moving around the same time.

Interesting that this is the second person that won't answer this question.

They hate the trade, but literally can't substitute a valid trade they would have preferred.

The Value of Cutter doesn't go up at this point. They were trying to move him for an entire year.

Except I did answer the question, sooooo

 

[Random Forest]

In response to number 1. I'm talking in general. At what point is anyone allowed to formulate an opinion? Sure, people would have thought that signing Gauthier in Sprin 2023 was a bad move. But in the Spring of 2023, would you expect to be privy to the information that we know today? The answer is a resounding no. If you're position is that you're never allowed to formulate an opinion unless you have all of the information, you'll never be able to make an opinion. I feel I should also mention that opinions are allowed to be incorrect at the time.

In response to number 2, In a vacuum I get what you're saying to a degree. I guess I would just ask this, Flyers done over the last 5 years that instills confidence? Sure, they've gotten a few small things right, but what have they done that makes you think they have turned it around? To me, and many here, very little. That's the issue at hand. At some point, you call a spade a spade.

And not for nothing, they just lost what they felt was a top prospect, because of their incorrect manuvering.

My problem isn’t with holding opinions on incomplete information. It’s with holding those opinions so strongly that you conform all events to cooperate with your existing belief without updating your priors. In this case, that belief is that the Flyers are hopelessly directionless.

In the past 5 years? Or in the past year? Because there actually is a lot in the past year that has me interested. I stopped posting for years because I was so zoned out of the Fletcher-era Flyers. But recent events and the fortunate continued development of players like Sanheim, Konecny, York, Farabee, and Hart actually does have me a bit excited again. That’s not to say I don’t find a lot of things incredibly frustrating. But this is not “the same old org”. They drafted Michkov FFS! That’s not a quintessential Flyers draft pick. It remains to be seen how different things actually are, but I’m here for it, and I’ve seen enough to update my priors. I’m not going to cheerlead for Briere, Jones, and Hilferty, but there’s obviously a shift in organizational philosophy, and it’s insane to think otherwise. Whether it works out or not is a big mystery, and odds are probably not great, but I’m watching something different than the 2013-2021 era Flyers, and I will laugh at people who tell me I’m not.

 

[Magua]

I have a hard time believing that the Flyers didn't understand the situation. I'm not letting go of Briere using the term 'a few months later,' after the draft and also 'changed his mind again'. The again is key to me here. Did Cutter tell them he didn't want to play for the Flyers after the draft, but the Flyers were able to change his mind? Something tells me that there were other issues apart from the ELC and that was the last straw.

It doesn't make sense to me either. I'm not sure people appreciate how rare it is for a 5th overall pick (or top 10 or even 1st rounder) to pull the not signing card. It's the nuclear option. Blake Wheeler did it in 2008 to not sign with the Coyotes (the Flyers don't have some magical mystique these days, but they're still above the poverty line). And he didn't even play his D+1 in college, and he wasn't some dominant collegiate player. It usually happens with mid-late rounders who are already approaching their senior year, maybe have some hype surge, and figure why not.

Gauthier gave them ~20 teams with which he would sign, so he wasn't being picky. I don't believe for a second he'd call their bluff and spend 4 years in college to delay his earnings; apparently, 1 year gave him hives. The Flyers drafted him 5th overall, have remained enamored with him, and would've signed him this spring just like Anaheim will do. If it's anything to do with the salary cap, then it's pure incompetence. But I'm skeptical they openly voiced that to his agent last spring as a (primary) reason. Wanting the best for your draft pick's development in playing a 2nd college season, while still burning a year off his ELC at age 19......doesn't seem worthy of the nuclear option.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

That doesn't even closely resemble anything I've said. Are Mods meant to throw strawman arguments around here? Because that one is flat out embarrassing.

I apologize for conflating your use of “actual” Flyers fans and your posts complaining about people being negative.

 

[Curufinwe]

The trade is whatever; they had to move him and hopefully Drysdale can stay healthy and be a good player.

The issue is that they let it get to a point where a top college prospect refused to sign with the big money, big market, Philadelphia Flyers. And not even the top college prospect from his draft year. That was Cooley, who was happy to sign with the Coyotes and play in front of 5,000 fans.

 

[BritainStix]

Yeah, i mean obviously each draft is a little different, and we both know NHL franchises are, as a general rule, skeptical about trade downs in general). It just feels like if you commit to taking a player at #5, you have to like them as a decent piece, especially given the amount of assets your organization had recently hemorrhaged in recent times prior to the pick and were considering moving around the same time.



Except I did answer the question, sooooo

Except you didn't. You just made a blanket statement about waiting for a 2024 draft pick. Who at the table do you think is going to trade a 2024 pick with better value than Drysdale and a 2nd in 25?

 

[Starat327]

Except you didn't. You just made a blanket statement about waiting for a 2024 draft pick. Who at the table do you think is going to trade a 2024 pick with better value than Drysdale and a 2nd in 25?

Hold on. Let me pull out my crystal ball and see who has needs in what area after this season, who decides to rebuild, and who doesnt kill their cap space with *checks notes* potential bonus overages.

Unlike some people around here, I don't conject about things i don't actually know. There are rumors - who knows how serious - Zegras may be available out of Anaheim. There's an option if you want for a specific. Which, i'm sure will be met with "lol no way hes not available, or "rofl, ducks dont trade Zegras for a college rookie who doesnt want to sign".

 

[deadhead]

I dont project to understand what players could or couldnt have been available, so im not going to engage in specifics.

I think my ideal would have been to focus those efforts on a high first round pick and dedicate it to a replacement center prospect (since we have exactly one good C below the age of 30 on a rebuilding team, and nothing left in the pipeline that projects to be one, aside from the one we've been dicking around the lineup for a few years) or a roughly equivalent C prospect that a team cant get under contract for whatever reason, but feels they can replace with a lesser player, etc).

What's the highest pick you realistically think Gauthier could have garnered?
Magua would probably say in the teens given his pre-trade evaluation of Gauthier.

Looking at equivalent trades, hard to think of anyone giving a top 5 pick, Gauthier had a decent freshman year, good WJC and Int'l comp, but nothing that said "elite center." So it's more like DeBrincat without the years of good NHL performance. Tuck went from #3 to #13 at 21 after struggling in the NHL. They tried to get #5 from Montreal who wouldn't bite.

So would you rather have #8-10 or Drysdale and a high 2nd in 2025?

 

[GKJ]

Imagine thinking you can confidently say you get the best deal available on a player that you had * checks notes* 2.5 additional years to either convince to sign, or alternatively, continue to shop around in the event that something else in the landscape changes.



You edited before i could get the response in. We're talking Infalliable GMs here, not young immature kids and people who probably dont even need a wheelchair, but have one anyway.

I’m not going to “confidently say” anything about the merits of this trade, but I am once again asking, what kind of a trade would you have pursued on the condition that Gauthier was not going to sign?

Doesn’t have to be anything that was rumored. Who or what would *you* have preferred?

Once you get to the end of sophomore year and he doesn't sign, you're not going to be able to hide that anymore. We always talk about how teams never trade anyone at their highest value, he was at his highest value to this organization right now, and to keep waiting and hoping, the risk only goes up and your leverage decreases. The one thing they would've had in their pocket is that they get the 35th pick in the following draft after his rights expire, so 1st round value never goes away.