Confirmed with Link: Flyers Trade 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Round Picks For Tony DeAngelo And a 7th (Signs 2x$5M Ext)

[LegionOfDoom91]

Would be awesome to watch a Rockies style exodus of the analytics department

I’d imagine in baseball there’s more pressure on the analytic departments to deliver since the entire league is entrenched in them & they actually play a big part in the decision making.

But that really isn’t the NHL. So while the pay might not be the greatest it’s probably a low pressure gig since most of the departments aren’t really leaned on much to deliver results.

 

[AdamParrot]

DeAngelo >> current Ghost.

DeAngelo is an elite offensive defenseman, he's subpar on defense, but Carlson isn't exactly a defensive force either.
Nor did they pay too much for him, in terms of hockey talent, he's actually a bargain, problem is he's has serious issues that create a high level of risk.

The issue isn't the moves, it's the FO behind the moves, first commit to AV b/c they don't want to buy him out, then fire AV when they realize their mistake, trade and sign for Risto b/c they want to be more physical, then trade and sign for DeAngelo when they realize Ellis can't play and they need a puck moving offensive defenseman.

It's prime Holmgren, reactive moves to try to stay competitive instead of establishing and sticking to a long-term strategy.
Doesn't matter if the GM is Fletcher or Zito or anyone else, until the FO changes any GM will make similar moves.
Because they won't hire a GM who wants to blow it up and rebuild.

DeAngelo is Yandle-level defensively. Carlson is miles better defensively than TDA despite he’s still below-average defensively overall.

They paid A LOT for him.

If you still don’t believe us, then ask yourself: ,,Why Tulsky, one of the best in the NHL, didn’t recommend Waddel to re-sign TDA for this price?”

Stop trying to make narratives again, deadhead.

 

[deadhead]

Im laughing my ass off here "You can't blame Chuck for bleeding assets, he wasn't making his moves on a long term strategy, what can you expect!"

You'd have the same problem with most any GM, if you're constantly making short-term trades b/c your mandate is win next year, not focus on a 3-5 year period, there will be no consistent pattern to your moves.

This of course is what we saw for over a decades, except for 2014-2017, but signing JVR was a signal that patience with a rebuild was over, b/c rebuilding teams don't sign 29 year old one-dimensional forwards to five year deals.

 

[Flukeshot]

Maybe we should be happy it was only a 2nd 3rd and 4th via trade instead of Chuck getting the itch and offersheeting him costing at a 1st and 3rd next year.

 

[deadhead]

DeAngelo is Yandle-level defensively. Carlson is miles better defensively than TDA despite he’s still below-average defensively overall.

They paid A LOT for him.

If you still don’t believe us, then ask yourself: ,,Why Tulsky, one of the best in the NHL, didn’t recommend Waddel to re-sign TDA for this price?”

Stop trying to make narratives again, deadhead.

Probably b/c they didn't want to take the risk.
They have $19 in cap room, but Neiderreiter, Trocheck are UFAs, Necas RFA. That's $10-15M right there.
They'll let Stepan, Domi, Cole and Smith walk, but it'll still cost $5-10M to replace them unless they play four rookeis.
So letting DeAngelo goes gives them more flexiblity rather than pay for someone they don't consider in their long-range plans.

 

[Tripod]

So we are going to PAY someone to take JVR and his 1 year contract because his $7 million is way too much for our leading goal scorer because of his bad defense.

And in the same breathe, we traded 3 picks for an offense Dman who plays bad defense and give him 5+ million.

The irony.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

DeAngelo is Yandle-level defensively. Carlson is miles better defensively than TDA despite he’s still below-average defensively overall.

They paid A LOT for him.

If you still don’t believe us, then ask yourself: ,,Why Tulsky, one of the best in the NHL, didn’t recommend Waddel to re-sign TDA for this price?”

Stop trying to make narratives again, deadhead.

I would not go that far. DrAngelo is most definitely below average defensively, but nothing can come close to the level of Yandle being as bad as he was last season.

 

[flyersnorth]

I was talking about that podcast, not Chuck.

Ah, my bad then. I was referring to some insider info from someone in the analytics department that came out shortly after the re-sign.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

So we are going to PAY someone to take JVR and his 1 year contract because his $7 million is way too much for our leading goal scorer because of his bad defense.

And in the same breathe, we traded 3 picks for an offense Dman who plays bad defense and give him 5+ million.

The irony.

Should've just moved JVR to RD and called it a day

 

[Ironmanrulez]

So, just to be clear having an adj relxGF of +1.5 in 15.5 minutes/game, paired in managed minutes with Slavin -- one of the best defensemen in the league and the statistical leader on the team -- is supposed to be impressive? (I will be fascinated to see the future spin for DeAngelo's defensive performance and stats, potentially playing harder minutes on the Flyers with Provorov.) But having an adj relxGF of +0.8 playing with career AHLer Dysin Mayo and burnt to a crisp Anton Stralman 17.5 minutes/game is.....let me quote directly: "Ghost padded his scoring stats but had horrid metrics."

I guess this all makes about as much sense as saying one player "padded his scoring stats" on the worst scoring team in the league, while DeAngelo produced, let me quote, "on a real team," which is code for finding his perfect niche on the 9th best offense with substantially more talented players. DeAngelo's offense is without question, but this passes the smell test like a rotting corpse. This was all certainly worth 2 high 2nds, a 3rd, a 4th, and extra cap space.

Ghost just have had a lucky season!
TDA just have had a bad season he can play 1st pair easily!

Thats how Deadghost and Flutchy Cucky think!

Most likely right i guess!

 

[flyersnorth]

Probably b/c they didn't want to take the risk.
They have $19 in cap room, but Neiderreiter, Trocheck are UFAs, Necas RFA. That's $10-15M right there.
They'll let Stepan, Domi, Cole and Smith walk, but it'll still cost $5-10M to replace them unless they play four rookeis.
So letting DeAngelo goes gives them more flexiblity rather than pay for someone they don't consider in their long-range plans.

So shouldn't the Flyers have had leverage in this situation?

Giving up 3 picks for a guy who is an RFA with a known character issue and his team has a cap crunch doesn't feel like the Flyers dealing from a position of strength. On top of that, they signed him to 2 years after which he becomes a UFA.

It also goes against two of Fletcher's own checkboxes he stated for the offseason -
High talent under 25? No.
Great character for the locker room? No.

His moves just don't make a lot of sense, and he pays a premium on top of that to make things less palatable.

 

[deadhead]

DeAngelo is 26, not exactly old.
2nd, 3rd and 4th isn't a king's ransom, and $5M is not out of line for a 2nd pair D-man.
If you were just going off on ice performance, there would be no issue with this deal, it's the off ice stuff that gives you pause.

 

[flyersnorth]

DeAngelo is 26, not exactly old.
2nd, 3rd and 4th isn't a king's ransom, and $5M is not out of line for a 2nd pair D-man.
If you were just going off on ice performance, there would be no issue with this deal, it's the off ice stuff that gives you pause.

I'm not saying he's old. In fact, 26 is right around the prime years for defensemen. It's just not what Chuck said he was looking for, which is talent under 25.

I understand that maybe the move is to mitigate what they already know about the likelihood of Ellis being ready for the start of camp, or ever.

In a vacuum, the picks are not the end of the world. But we don't live in a vacuum. That's three picks for TDA, two picks PLUS Ghost just to get rid of him, two picks (including a 1st) PLUS a roster player for Risto who only had a year left on his contract.

That's seven picks and two roster players for Risto and DeAngelo. Even if the team were all-in, that's just not good value.

The off-ice stuff is one thing, and if you (the royal you) want to overlook it, fill your boots. But again, it goes directly against what Chuck said he was looking for, and that's guys with a strong character.

Guaranteed he will bleed picks to get rid of JVR and/or Lindblom.

 

[trostol]

well..there certainly are some takes here lol

 

[JojoTheWhale]

26 is roughly average for the end of prime, even for Defensemen.

 

[zizbuka]

Really don’t understand what they are trying to do.

It's almost like they don't have a plan..........

 

[Beef Invictus]

DeAngelo is 26, not exactly old.
2nd, 3rd and 4th isn't a king's ransom, and $5M is not out of line for a 2nd pair D-man.
If you were just going off on ice performance, there would be no issue with this deal, it's the off ice stuff that gives you pause.

They've bled close to a whole draft away in terms of overall value as well as 10 million in cap space over one year to bring in two dmen who can't defend and need to get carried to even stay afloat.

On a team nowhere near ready to compete and in desperate need off making every pick they can.

That's bad value even ignoring everything else.

 

[CharasLazyWrister]

Meh, the Avs just traded a few picks for a goalie yesterday and did you see what Zito did last year?!

All teams do it.

Wow.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Wow.

It's sarcasm

 

[renberg]

DeAngelo >> current Ghost.

DeAngelo is an elite offensive defenseman, he's subpar on defense, but Carlson isn't exactly a defensive force either.
Nor did they pay too much for him, in terms of hockey talent, he's actually a bargain, problem is he's has serious issues that create a high level of risk.

The issue isn't the moves, it's the FO behind the moves, first commit to AV b/c they don't want to buy him out, then fire AV when they realize their mistake, trade and sign for Risto b/c they want to be more physical, then trade and sign for DeAngelo when they realize Ellis can't play and they need a puck moving offensive defenseman.

It's prime Holmgren, reactive moves to try to stay competitive instead of establishing and sticking to a long-term strategy.
Doesn't matter if the GM is Fletcher or Zito or anyone else, until the FO changes any GM will make similar moves.
Because they won't hire a GM who wants to blow it up and rebuild.

This is the key element in the failure of the Flyers organization. The are always in a reactionary state. Sometimes it’s best to just eat your mistake, learn from it and move on. Not these guys. They’re the little Dutch boy at the dike trying to stick his fingers in the holes and then runs out of fingers. It’s not the holes that are the issue. It’s the dike which needs an overhaul.

 

[The Rage Kage]

You'd have the same problem with most any GM, if you're constantly making short-term trades b/c your mandate is win next year, not focus on a 3-5 year period, there will be no consistent pattern to your moves.

This of course is what we saw for over a decades, except for 2014-2017, but signing JVR was a signal that patience with a rebuild was over, b/c rebuilding teams don't sign 29 year old one-dimensional forwards to five year deals.

As a GM you have to understand that every move you make, mandated or not, will reflect on your competency, not the team or executives behind you. Dealing with micromanaging owners and quarterly statements that effect the on ice product is part of the job description. You need to find a work around to be successfulㅡmany GMs have. Chuck is barely treading water.

The problem is that you seem to think that Chuck is in the same situation and under the same kind of scrutiny that Hextall was, that he is unable to make the kind of moves that he desires and instead is toeing the company line. That's patently false. After firing Hextall they would never bring someone in who would have to be fought on every move, if that was the case they wouldn't have bothered to fire Hextall. They deliberately brought a guy in who already agreed with them, he didn't have to be convinced. It's not that Chuck is making moves mandated by Clarke and Co, it's that Chuck was only hired because he would choose on his own to make the kind of moves that Clarke and Co want. Chuck is not a victim of upper brass manipulation, he is complicit in it.

 

[deadhead]

As a GM you have to understand that every move you make, mandated or not, will reflect on your competency, not the team or executives behind you. Dealing with micromanaging owners and quarterly statements that effect the on ice product is part of the job description. You need to find a work around to be successfulㅡmany GMs have. Chuck is barely treading water.

The problem is that you seem to think that Chuck is in the same situation and under the same kind of scrutiny that Hextall was, that he is unable to make the kind of moves that he desires and instead is toeing the company line. That's patently false. After firing Hextall they would never bring someone in who would have to be fought on every move, if that was the case they wouldn't have bothered to fire Hextall. They deliberately brought a guy in who already agreed with them, he didn't have to be convinced. It's not that Chuck is making moves mandated by Clarke and Co, it's that Chuck was only hired because he would choose on his own to make the kind of moves that Clarke and Co want. Chuck is not a victim of upper brass manipulation, he is complicit in it.

And what makes you think Fletcher's replacement would be any different?

If you don't change the FO, the GM they hire will know what he's expected to do, which is the current FO's bidding.

I mean do you think any candidate who goes into the first interview and says " this is f===g mess, this is what I'd do to fix it" would ever get a second interview?

Other than Risto (and a lot of GMs lust for that kind of D-man, look at what Chariot cost as a rental!), Fletcher's moves taken in isolation are reasonable. The Risto deal is the only one where he even gave a 1st rd pick.

But the pattern is that a FO that has deluded itself into thinking they're one or two moves and a little luck from going deep into the playoffs.

If the Flyers were a 100 point team that just found out that Ellis is probably out for the season, the TDA trade makes sense, a gamble but the kind that teams that are contenders make all the time. But even when you account for injury bad luck, the Flyers are an 85-90 point team, and those kinds of teams shouldn't take these kinds of gambles.

 

[Larry44]

TDA and Gostisbehere’s careers line up fairly well. DeAngelo is clearly better offensively and WAY worse defensively. Their offensive peaks were pretty damn similar with overall peak going to Gostisbehere by a moderate but clear margin.

The problem, just like the Hayes acquisition, is that they bought high right after a career year and are paying based on that continuing. Sensing a pattern. A bad one.

Ghost played well but Hakstol and AV didn’t know how to use him. Most of Fletcher’s signings and trades have bombed, or simply cost more than necessary because he can’t negotiate. Worst GM by far, doing damage to the club’s future to save his sorry butt.

 

[The Rage Kage]

And what makes you think Fletcher's replacement would be any different?

If you don't change the FO, the GM they hire will know what he's expected to do, which is the current FO's bidding.

I mean do you think any candidate who goes into the first interview and says " this is f===g mess, this is what I'd do to fix it" would ever get a second interview?

Other than Risto (and a lot of GMs lust for that kind of D-man, look at what Chariot cost as a rental!), Fletcher's moves taken in isolation are reasonable. The Risto deal is the only one where he even gave a 1st rd pick.

But the pattern is that a FO that has deluded itself into thinking they're one or two moves and a little luck from going deep into the playoffs.

If the Flyers were a 100 point team that just found out that Ellis is probably out for the season, the TDA trade makes sense, a gamble but the kind that teams that are contenders make all the time. But even when you account for injury bad luck, the Flyers are an 85-90 point team, and those kinds of teams shouldn't take these kinds of gambles.

I dont think Fletcher's replacement will be any different. I have said many times that nothing changes with this team until Clarke croaks. That doesn't mean you can just hand wave away Chucks incompetence. A better GM, even under the terrible upper management, could still salvage something from this team.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

I dont think Fletcher's replacement will be any different. I have said many times that nothing changes with this team until Clarke croaks. That doesn't mean you can just hand wave away Chucks incompetence. A better GM, even under the terrible upper management, could still salvage something from this team.

your facts check out..