Five members from Canada’s 2018 world junior team (Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote and Formenton) told to surrender to police, facing sexual assault charges

[Bocephus86]

The way these guys are put on a pedestal and idealized is a major part of the problem. This happens at high-level High school and NCAA sports, happens with young players on top soccer teams in Europe etc. The oh, it's just boys being boys, and there usually good kids because they are athletic is a trend that needs to stop. Because, in some ways they are products of their environment (not in this case, if guilty they crossed serious lines), but they are put on a pedestal and anything bad they do is excused. This Don Cherry myth of them being these hard working, respectful kids needs to end. I went to London, Ontario for University, and met tons of Knights players. They were not much different than the rich entitled frat boys at a wealthy university. Maybe a bit dumber, and obviously way more athletic. There background tends to have much more in common with rich kids at a good university, than that of this blue collar farm-boy overacheiver.

The majority of hockey kids (in the US/Canada at least) come from wealthy familys, and end up either the CHL or prep school route. They are the same as the wealthy frat bro, they just play a sport that makes them idolized by adults, for some odd reason. Why are people surprised when some of them act entitled?

 

[93LEAFS]

The majority of hockey kids (in the US/Canada at least) come from wealthy familys, and end up either the CHL or prep school route. They are the same as the wealthy frat bro, they just play a sport that makes them idolized by adults, for some odd reason. Why are people surprised when some of them act entitled?

I don't get it either. I grew up going to Toronto Private schools and went to a university filled with kids of a similar background (unlike the States, Canada doesn't have an elite blue-blood private college/university system, every top school is public so there isn't the same level of certain schools being all rich kids outside people on heavy loans or scholarships). It's just some myth passed on of blue-collar kids playing hockey on a pond and getting scouted. Not realizing that many parents for their kids to reach high-level hockey have pumped in over 6 figures by the time the kids are OHL draft age. And, that's just GTHL AAA, they also likely send them to private schools on top of that.

Are these guys all bad people? Absolutely not. Are they the pristine image that Hockey Canada/TSN/Don Cherry try to present when talking about the WJC teams? Nope. To say things like they hold open doors and don't party and smoke weed. Well, um, yeah. No. They do similar things to all wealthy young and entitled males, they have more in common with a wealthy young kid on Wall Street than they do of this hard working kid mythos, and all the vices and social aspects that come with it.

 

[I am toxic]

From the CBC:

Former Crown prosecutor Nick Cake says the players "will be arrested, just like anybody else would be arrested."

"Either they can walk into the police station and do that, or ultimately the police will come and find them," said Cake, now a criminal defence lawyer in London. He is not representing anyone involved in the case.

The accused would then be read their rights and given an opportunity to speak with a lawyer, he said.

"Then, I would imagine, [they would be] released with a court date and some conditions at that point in time," said Cake.

So yeah, earlier in the thread there was discussion about arrests. This addresses that particular issue.

The main issue will revolve around consent, something which posters here should fully understand, but sadly many many of the posters here clearly have no clue:

Court documents written by London Police state E.M. and the players agree in general on what happened during the night of the alleged incident, but disagree on the main issue: consent.

E.M. told police she consented to go to the hotel room with one of the players, but did not consent to the other group of players coming into the room and those alleged sexual acts.

The players interviewed by police didn't see it that way, according to court filings written by police to request search warrants.

London Police said in those court filings that they believe "E.M. did not consent to any of the sexual activity, except for specific sex act(s)" with the first player. E.M. told police in a statement in July 2022 that "I didn't want to do what they were making me do."

Clearly there is a mountain of evidence available ranging from the statement of claim, the words of former Hockey Canada executives/rape enablers who acknowledged EM had been harmed, police warrants, and damning snippets of videos:

Male: "Say it."

E.M: "OK, it was all consensual. Are you recording me?"

Male: "Yeah."

E.M. "K, good. This was all consensual."

Male: "What else?"

E.M: "Would you? You are so paranoid, holy. I enjoyed it, it was fine, it was all consensual. I am so sober, that's why I can't do this right now."

Police said in the court filing that the first player told investigators he "was worried something like this — in reference to the police investigation — would happen."

"The two video clips made by Player #1 were created, according to E.M., to protect against her going to police," wrote Sgt. Younan. "Player #1 even asked her if she was planning on going to the police ... and asked she fix things with police."

"Say it."

Or get beaten to death with golf clubs.

Hint: that's not consent.

This case goes beyond charges of a gang rape. The London Police effed up royally:

London Police originally closed the first investigation into E.M's allegations in February 2019 by concluding that there were no "reasonable grounds to believe sexual assault occurred."

Three years later, after E.M.'s allegations were made public through her lawsuit, and following a public outcry, London Police re-opened the criminal case.

The CBC's Fifth Estate spoke to legal experts who said the first police investigation was "cursory at best."

I don't think anything about how this was handled prior to Westhead getting involved can remotely be described as "at best". Which is both frightening and disgusting.

And as part of the rape enabling handbook, both Hockey Canada and the NHL continue to resort to non-transparency to their fullest extent:

Hockey Canada announced in November that the panel had completed its confidential hearing behind closed doors and had issued a final report. But Hockey Canada wouldn't reveal the results, saying that an appeal process was expected to begin "in the near future" which would also be "conducted in-camera."

and

The NHL has also conducted its own separate investigation into the 2018 alleged group sexual assault. When asked for a status update on the investigation, the NHL this week did not respond to CBC News' request.

As I indicated earlier, any improvements will be made despite those two institutions. They are part of the problem, not part of any solution.

TL,DR? don't worry, there's more to make your stomach turn.

 

[Bocephus86]

I don't get it either. I grew up going to Toronto Private schools and went to a university filled with kids of a similar background (unlike the States, Canada doesn't have an elite blue-blood private college/university system, every top school is public so there isn't the same level of certain schools being all rich kids outside people on heavy loans or scholarships). It's just some myth passed on of blue-collar kids playing hockey on a pond and getting scouted. Not realizing that many parents for their kids to reach high-level hockey have pumped in over 6 figures by the time the kids are OHL draft age. And, that's just GTHL AAA, they also likely send them to private schools on top of that.

Are these guys all bad people? Absolutely not. Are they the pristine image that Hockey Canada/TSN/Don Cherry try to present when talking about the WJC teams? Nope. To say things like they hold open doors and don't party and smoke weed. Well, um, yeah. No. They do similar things to all wealthy young and entitled males, they have more in common with a wealthy young kid on Wall Street than they do of this hard working kid mythos, and all the vices and social aspects that come with it.

100%. It's not all of them, but oddly enough for the Cherry crowd, I would suggest that, holding everything else even, the average kid coming from Europe/Russia is far more 'working class' than those coming out of NA over the last 2-3 decades. The vast majority of the really good hockey kids I grew up with (20 minutes south of Boston MA) ended up at one of the local prep schools like Tabor or Thayer academy (average annual high school tuition 55k+ / year).

I went to a very good hockey D1 college and was friends of friends with (IE, party with) a few guys through some various connections due to my high school. These guys were as into drinking and various drugs as the worst prototypical frat bro around. Hell, I know that at least 5 of them played NHL games, and 3 had what I would call real NHL careers.

To think hockey players are some idolized 'good old canadian boy' from the old days is ridiculous.

 

[93LEAFS]

100%. It's not all of them, but oddly enough for the Cherry crowd, I would suggest that, holding everything else even, the average kid coming from Europe/Russia is far more 'working class' than those coming out of NA over the last 2-3 decades. The vast majority of the really good hockey kids I grew up with (20 minutes south of Boston MA) ended up at one of the local prep schools like Tabor or Thayer academy (average annual high school tuition 55k+ / year).

I went to a very good hockey D1 college and was friends of friends with (IE, party with) a few guys through some various connections due to my high school. These guys were as into drinking and various drugs as the worst prototypical frat bro around. Hell, I know that at least 5 of them played NHL games, and 3 had what I would call real NHL careers.

To think hockey players are some idolized 'good old canadian boy' from the old days is ridiculous.

Yeah, just since I see your from Boston. While I don't think anything illegal happened at this party (outside of previous incidents such as Trevino), it reminded me of this. This def isn't the picture Hockey USA or Canada wants, it reminds me of the BU scandal from like a decade ago. And, I doubt BU is much different than the other powerhouse Hockey schools, they just had bad stuff come to light.

Graphic details emerge from BU hockey panel reports

Salacious details emerged Thursday from confidential documents compiled by Boston University administrators charged with investigating the culture surrounding the men’s hockey team. The documents tell of players who believed “they need not seek consent’’ for sex and who demanded special...

www.boston.com

Edit: And, to add, since he's now open about it and has talked about it, the star player of this team was Colin Wilson, who has admitted to having a serious cocaine problem while in the NHL.

 

[M88K]

So not allowing the players names:

(First my usual disclaimer - I am a lawyer, but only qualified to practice law in Alberta. Defamation/libel is something I studied in school but not an area I practice in)

I suspect that if HF Boards had a bunch of posts naming the players, then got sued by said players, HF Boards would probably win a defamation lawsuit. But you want to know the easiest way to win a lawsuit? Avoid getting sued in the first place! So I can't really blame the Mods for being overly cautious here. And I don't know who owns HFBoards (a whois query comes back to GoDaddy as proxy). It probably makes a few bucks from ads, but I can't imagine it's all that much, and getting into a bunch of lawsuits can go through money FAST.

With the amount of ads they run on this site, they probably can probably give Google a run for their money

 

[Golden_Jet]

From the CBC:



So yeah, earlier in the thread there was discussion about arrests. This addresses that particular issue.

The main issue will revolve around consent, something which posters here should fully understand, but sadly many many of the posters here clearly have no clue:



Clearly there is a mountain of evidence available ranging from the statement of claim, the words of former Hockey Canada executives/rape enablers who acknowledged EM had been harmed, police warrants, and damning snippets of videos:


"Say it."

Or get beaten to death with golf clubs.

Hint: that's not consent.

This case goes beyond charges of a gang rape. The London Police effed up royally:



I don't think anything about how this was handled prior to Westhead getting involved can remotely be described as "at best". Which is both frightening and disgusting.

And as part of the rape enabling handbook, both Hockey Canada and the NHL continue to resort to non-transparency to their fullest extent:



and



As I indicated earlier, any improvements will be made despite those two institutions. They are part of the problem, not part of any solution.

TL,DR? don't worry, there's more to make your stomach turn.

Then you get this news, from a Supreme Court ruling on consent this week from a very drunk woman, muddying the waters.

Supreme Court of Canada upholds acquittal in sex assault case revolving around consent

A key piece of evidence in the trial was a video recording of the complainant saying she consented to the sex

www.theglobeandmail.com

 

[DearDiary]

Btw, would Hockey Canada be OK with their players gang banging drunk girls while on duty for the country & national team?

She said on video that she wasn't drunk

 

[Bocephus86]

Yeah, just since I see your from Boston. While I don't think anything illegal happened at this party (outside of previous incidents such as Trevino), it reminded me of this. This def isn't the picture Hockey USA or Canada wants, it reminds me of the BU scandal from like a decade ago. And, I doubt BU is much different than the other powerhouse Hockey schools, they just had bad stuff come to light.

Graphic details emerge from BU hockey panel reports

Salacious details emerged Thursday from confidential documents compiled by Boston University administrators charged with investigating the culture surrounding the men’s hockey team. The documents tell of players who believed “they need not seek consent’’ for sex and who demanded special...

www.boston.com

Edit: And, to add, since he's now open about it and has talked about it, the star player of this team was Colin Wilson, who has admitted to having a serious cocaine problem while in the NHL.

Very unsurprising read. I went to a different high level Hockey East school in New England. I had one class with one hockey player (goalie). Never saw him in class once. He was in a friends group for the final project, never participated. They told the teacher about it, who was going to 'deal with it'. Found out the next year through the grape vine that he got a B in the class.

 

[mr figgles]

She said on video that she wasn't drunk

After the fact, when she is in a hotel bathroom with her rapist asking her the question, and her other rapists in the next room between her and the only exit.

 

[DearDiary]

After the fact, when she is in a hotel bathroom with her rapist asking her the question, and her other rapists in the next room between her and the only exit.

I was under the impression that sexual assault was still an allegation. I didn't realize it was proven to the point where people can already be called rapists.

 

[Dessloch]

She said on video that she wasn't drunk

Where can I review that evidence? Thank you, my apologies if I got that wrong.

 

[DearDiary]

Where can I review that evidence? Thank you, my apologies if I got that wrong.

It's in every article about the incident

"Are you recording me? Okay, good. It was all consensual. You are so paranoid, holy. I enjoyed it, it was fine. It was all consensual. I am so sober, that’s why I can’t do this right now.”

 

[Chips]

Where can I review that evidence? Thank you, my apologies if I got that wrong.

He’s leaving out the part where you can hear the guys filming saying stuff like “say it”


Nah nah, I believe every American hostage ever held by terrorists was treated as well as they say in those videos. Better even than they were treated in the US. If it’s on film is legit

 

[Silky Johnson]

I remember a lot of things happening in Youngblood, but certainly nothing like these young player's behaviour and incidents.

On a serious note, is this a result of having access to unlimited internet content including adult material? This really seems like a year 2000+ thing happening.

I'd say getting caught u
is a year 2000+ thing.

 

[Dessloch]

It's in every article about the incident

"Are you recording me? Okay, good. It was all consensual. You are so paranoid, holy. I enjoyed it, it was fine. It was all consensual. I am so sober, that’s why I can’t do this right now.”

"She described crying. She explained that she needed to retreat to the bathroom to get away on multiple occasions. She was unable to say 'no.' Throughout the encounter she felt disassociated from everything. She was intoxicated."

In her statement of claim, E.M. alleged she met one of the players at a local bar in London, where they were drinking. Court filings say E.M. told police she also recalled an "older gentleman" buying rounds for the group and pouring a "Jagerbomb in her mouth." That man praised the player she was with and told E.M. to "take care of him," the court filings said.

Does that sound like the girl was sober? The girl is saying what he wants to get him out of her face! And if she was drunk, chocked and in emotional distress what she said carries little or of no weight at all in comparison to the whole situation!
---
And below

And does this sound like a witness testimony that did not come under duress? I think her consenting on camera when almost forced and encouraged will have zero bearing in court, it will be deemed she was coerced into making it!

"The court filings written by London Police alleged the player with whom E.M. consented to sexual acts was involved in filming two videos of E.M. in the hotel room in which he asked if she was OK.

In the first clip, which is about six seconds long, E.M. is seen smiling at the beginning of the video. The court filings say E.M. is then seen wiping her eyes and speaking without slurring. The video is "short in duration and difficult to construe context," London Police said in the court filing.

Police confirmed that the player who brought her to the hotel is heard on the recording asking, "Hey, you're OK with this though, right?"

EM: "Yeah."

Male: "You're OK with this?"

EM: "I'm OK way with this."

According to the London Police court filing, E.M. told police she was not aware she was being recorded, she was wiping her eyes because she was overwhelmed, and she believes she was crying.

The second video clip is about 12 second long, according to the court filing. The same male voice from the first clip is heard again and E.M. is seen partially covering herself with a white towel. Police included a transcript of the video in the court filing:

Male: "Say it."

E.M: "OK, it was all consensual. Are you recording me?"

Male: "Yeah."

E.M. "K, good. This was all consensual."

Male: "What else?"

E.M: "Would you? You are so paranoid, holy. I enjoyed it, it was fine, it was all consensual. I am so sober, that's why I can't do this right now."

Police said in the court filing that the first player told investigators he "was worried something like this — in reference to the police investigation — would happen."

"The two video clips made by Player #1 were created, according to E.M., to protect against her going to police," wrote Sgt. Younan. "Player #1 even asked her if she was planning on going to the police ... and asked she fix things with police."

 

[GeoRox89]

"She described crying. She explained that she needed to retreat to the bathroom to get away on multiple occasions. She was unable to say 'no.' Throughout the encounter she felt disassociated from everything. She was intoxicated."

In her statement of claim, E.M. alleged she met one of the players at a local bar in London, where they were drinking. Court filings say E.M. told police she also recalled an "older gentleman" buying rounds for the group and pouring a "Jagerbomb in her mouth." That man praised the player she was with and told E.M. to "take care of him," the court filings said.

Does that sound like the girl was sober?
---
And below

And does this sound like a witness testimony that did not come under duress? I think her consenting on camera when almost forced and encouraged will have zero bearing in court, it will be deemed she was coerced into making it!

"The court filings written by London Police alleged the player with whom E.M. consented to sexual acts was involved in filming two videos of E.M. in the hotel room in which he asked if she was OK.

In the first clip, which is about six seconds long, E.M. is seen smiling at the beginning of the video. The court filings say E.M. is then seen wiping her eyes and speaking without slurring. The video is "short in duration and difficult to construe context," London Police said in the court filing.

Police confirmed that the player who brought her to the hotel is heard on the recording asking, "Hey, you're OK with this though, right?"

EM: "Yeah."

Male: "You're OK with this?"

EM: "I'm OK way with this."

According to the London Police court filing, E.M. told police she was not aware she was being recorded, she was wiping her eyes because she was overwhelmed, and she believes she was crying.

The second video clip is about 12 second long, according to the court filing. The same male voice from the first clip is heard again and E.M. is seen partially covering herself with a white towel. Police included a transcript of the video in the court filing:

Male: "Say it."

E.M: "OK, it was all consensual. Are you recording me?"

Male: "Yeah."

E.M. "K, good. This was all consensual."

Male: "What else?"

E.M: "Would you? You are so paranoid, holy. I enjoyed it, it was fine, it was all consensual. I am so sober, that's why I can't do this right now."

Police said in the court filing that the first player told investigators he "was worried something like this — in reference to the police investigation — would happen."

"The two video clips made by Player #1 were created, according to E.M., to protect against her going to police," wrote Sgt. Younan. "Player #1 even asked her if she was planning on going to the police ... and asked she fix things with police."

Sometimes I wonder if people are just shortening what the video said on their own or if there has been a deliberate campaign to get the rhetoric around it to exclude what appears to be prodding to get her to say specific things

The transcript paints a different picture than the typical explanation of the video

Edit: Before anyone brings up that Supreme Court ruling - based on what has been released about that case there is a continuous video where you can hear her during the encounter after consenting. That means nowhere on the video does she clearly revoke consent. That hinged on whether she was too drunk to have the capacity to consent and it was still a 2-1 trial court decision meaning one judge disagreed and did not believe she was capable of consenting

That is very different than the recording prior to the encounter in this case as there is no continuous filming to document consent had not been revoked afterwards. Someone can go off with a person fully intending to have consensual sex with them, initially consent and change their minds prior to or during based on any number of things and anything after that revocation is not consensual even if the person signed a pile of documents or recorded anything saying they were agreeing. That it would be almost impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt to actually charge someone criminally in that case but would not change what happened in that hypothetical

 

[Dessloch]

Sometimes I wonder if people are just shortening what the video said on their own or if there has been a deliberate campaign to get the rhetoric around it to exclude what appears to be prodding to get her to say specific things

The transcript paints a different picture than the typical explanation of the video

Of course there are always people that want to spread misinformation, if they are against women or metoo or just asshats, I cant say. But as soon as you take evidence out of context, you risk people getting the wrong impression of what went down. Thats why the legal process takes time and not like most people online wants to make a ruling in 10 minutes!

 

[GeoRox89]

Of course there are always people that want to spread misinformation, if they are against women or metoo or just asshats, I cant say. But as soon as you take evidence out of context, you risk people getting the wrong impression of what went down. Thats why the legal process takes time and not like most people online wants to make a ruling in 10 minutes!

McDonald’s should really win an award for the success of the campaign around that coffee lawsuit. Everyone still talks about it like it was a frivolous suit. Most people don’t seem to realize that woman had 3rd degree burns. That was not regular hot coffee spilling, that was unreasonably and dangerously hot coffee that never should’ve been sold at such a temperature that it could burn someone that badly

After that I’m always wary that anyone with remotely deep pockets isn’t trying to manipulate narratives in their favour

 

[Honour Over Glory]

No, the poster is using the judicial system, where innocent until proven guilty.

This case is different. Hockey Canada knew something bad happened and quickly dipped into their "our athletes rape fund" to pay it off and quickly shoo it away.

Public found out as what Hockey Canada did was use funds that weren't meant for that to hide sexual assault in the most disgusting ways. Which this sport (and others) has a disgusting history of doing through pressure to the victims to not persue, pay it off to hide, or use powerful friends (Gilmour/Blues) to make it go away.

Not often do you see a situation like this get taken to this lengths and it's about time they did. The facts of the case have also been out but bro culture on full display here showing just how toxic fans are with "how dare they try to find justice to the good ole boys, obviously why did she put herself in that position" which is just, I'm not shocked.

To be so hyped for worrying about sued about the names but then allowing the most vile members to play some disgusting angle to absolve the players....typical.

This one is not as "innocent until proven guilty" as most want it to be. It's more "Guilty, but how guilty are each of the 5 in this incident."

 

[I am toxic]

Then you get this news, from a Supreme Court ruling on consent this week from a very drunk woman, muddying the waters.

Supreme Court of Canada upholds acquittal in sex assault case revolving around consent

A key piece of evidence in the trial was a video recording of the complainant saying she consented to the sex

www.theglobeandmail.com

You misunderstand this case.

EM wasn't able to provide consent to a gangbang - thus making it a gangrape - because she was ambushed by about a half dozen guys with clubs at hand.

Not because she was drunk or not. Her state of intoxication is completely secondary to this particular case of nonconsent.

 

[wetcoast]

It's in every article about the incident

"Are you recording me? Okay, good. It was all consensual. You are so paranoid, holy. I enjoyed it, it was fine. It was all consensual. I am so sober, that’s why I can’t do this right now.”

That might end up being the reasonable doubt but we don't have the entire evidence and circumstances, although some are ready to convict.

The facts of the case are also very important and is what the trial will entail, not the views of some people or any one on these boards for that matter.

That being said if the 5 aren't convicted one wonders if they play in the NHL again but that's a different question.

 

[oilexport]

Yeah, this is certainly something that gives me some pause regarding this case. We have 5 to 8 guys - all with extremely promising futures that they've been working towards their whole lives, who probably don't have much difficultly getting girls - and they're all going to decide to sexually assault someone and risk throwing that all away?

Also from the little we do know about the case, the alleged victim did not explicitly tell them "stop" or say "no", etc. (or at least that was not reported publicly released details thus far).

That doesn't mean a crime wasn't committed - obviously there's more than a decent chance there was if the police are moving forward with charges.

It just doesn't scream to me a case of all these guys knowingly committing a sexual assault and all cool with it, repercussions be damned. Maybe something that got out of hand where they pressured her to go further than she wanted and might not have realized that she really wasn't OK with it? Then again, the whole situation of having a bunch of guys in one room doing the things that are being alleged is really creepy/odd/disturbing to begin with even if she did consent to everything. There was also surely a ton of alcohol involved, which clouds judgement especially for teenagers, so who knows?

I'm thinking a psychologist may be able to put some reason behind this crazy mentality. I know these kids train everyday their whole lives with the team. They do not

When you exhaust all your breath trying to minimize what these young men did and excuse away any repercussions they should have coming their way, it rings rather phony when you dole out some false sounding concern for the young woman. You've Cleary chosen the dirty side here, trying to spit shine the mud is like putting lipstick on the proverbial pig. Its really not a good look and it's pretty obvious to all that you have far less concern for the woman than you do for the "boys."

Sorry you did not find my post sincere. All I can tell ya is your very mistaken.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

You were not a target for 10 million people to analyze and dig through court cases to see if it was over the line or not.

A few drinks, stupid conduct by young males and females in a bar setting, can ruin your lives. Hope the victim is OK.

Yeah, I remember that one of the things I'd always do when I was single and hooking up was pull out my phone and ask girls to give consent on camera. Totally normal behavior.

I'm sorry but this has nothing to do with booze. There's a gulf here between a drunken hook-up (which are hyper common) and what went down in this situation, best exemplified by the fact that the girl was okay with going to bed with only one of the guys (even with booze involved), not that he invites all his buddies to barge in like a bunch of animals.

 

[Atoyot]

McDonald’s should really win an award for the success of the campaign around that coffee lawsuit. Everyone still talks about it like it was a frivolous suit. Most people don’t seem to realize that woman had 3rd degree burns. That was not regular hot coffee spilling, that was unreasonably and dangerously hot coffee that never should’ve been sold at such a temperature that it could burn someone that badly

After that I’m always wary that anyone with remotely deep pockets isn’t trying to manipulate narratives in their favour

2 notes on that case:

1: That location got warnings beforehand about the temperature of their coffee and:

Please read this if nothing else:
2: She only tried to sue for her medical expenses.