Five members from Canada’s 2018 world junior team (Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote and Formenton) told to surrender to police, facing sexual assault charges

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AnInjuredJasonZucker

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Feb 21, 2014
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I see the title thread but just because someone on HFBoards post it doesn't make it so. :laugh:

Until its proven with evidence in a court it will always be alleged.
Let me try to break it down for you a little bit more. It's not an alleged title. It's not alleged that the subject matter of this thread is gang-rape. Me saying that is not speculatory or a determination of innocence or guilt of the players involved in the case.

It is literally just what the thread is about.

And you somehow were surprised that a thread about that subject was fraught with anger.

Now, you may need some sleep or a hot pocket, but despite that benefit of the doubt, you should definitely not be dismissively calling anyone "sweetie" when you're decidedly out of your depth.
 
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VivaLasVegas

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Didn't the original story involve 7 players? How is it possible 'only' 5 are getting charged if more than that allegedly committed a crime? Or do I have the numbers wrong?
Seems like it was 8 but there are multiple but purely speculative possible explanations: The other folks were present, but didn't participate (watching a sexual assault may be morally onerous but might not rise to the dignity of a crime in a particular jurisdiction), or they did participate but have turned state's evidence and agreed to plead guilty later for reduced sentences in exchange for cooperation, or the original story was just wrong, etc. & etc. & etc.

As a lawyer myself, I will suggest that there is nothing to be gained from such speculation other than frustration so it's better to just ignore the myriad possibilities until the real facts do come out. You can't do anything about it anyway.

Noting that I know utterly nothing about substantive criminal law in Canada, which is often different than in the States (which themselves frequently differ), and might even differ between the Provinces (I don't know), nor do I have the least little bit of knowledge of Canadian criminal procedure other than to presume that it is akin to English criminal procedure. Happily waiting to read the press releases from the prosecutor's office and defense counsel who will presumably know something of these issues.
 
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Zirakzigil

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Jul 5, 2010
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I googled this and found the names. Is that still not being discussed here? No i did not read 65 pages. Just logged in and found this thread
Its not being discussed by name because we dont know the names. Any names out there are pure speculation.
 

Dotter

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Read the 1st post.

I did. In fact I read it twice. I'll go back to read it a 3rd just because you said so. Maybe it changed in the last 3 minutes.

Its not being discussed by name because we dont know the names. Any names out there are pure speculation.

Even tho 'certain' players from the 2018 CA juniors' are being granted leave of absence by their respective teams?
 
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Zirakzigil

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I did. In fact I read it twice. I'll go back to read it a 3rd just because you said so. Maybe it changed in the last 3 minutes.



Even tho 'certain' players from the 2018 CA juniors' are being granted leave of absence by their respective teams?
You are speculating that their leave of absence is in relation to the players who are being told to report to London police. For all we know, in the next week, more players could request a leave of absence. Until it is confirmed, we will not be talking about names. You can blame past legal issues involving this forum for that. If you want to grab your pitchfork and speculate, feel free to do it elsewhere.
 

The Moose

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Its not being discussed by name because we dont know the names. Any names out there are pure speculation.
IMG_0343.jpeg
 
Jun 15, 2013
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8 actually and it was unclear at the beginning who was actually involved and not a witness. They seem to have firm evidence on 5 individuals.
"In the lawsuit, the alleged victim refers to the players accused as John Does 1-8. The claim also says the players involved were “members of the CHL and Hockey Canada, including but not limited to members of Canada’s U20 men’s junior hockey team.” - source the Athletic (April 20, 2022)
 

Hank Plank

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Jun 5, 2012
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I have to hand it to some of you, you've found a way to drastically speed up the justice system. Since all it takes is an investigation and people turning themselves in to determined guilt we no longer need a slow, expensive and complicated legal process. No more judges, court rooms, discovery, 3rd party witnesses. No more jury duty.
 

Dotter

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Jul 2, 2014
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You are speculating that their leave of absence is in relation to the players who are being told to report to London police. For all we know, in the next week, more players could request a leave of absence. Until it is confirmed, we will not be talking about names. You can blame past legal issues involving this forum for that. If you want to grab your pitchfork and speculate, feel free to do it elsewhere.

I don't want to pitchfork. I just want to know what impact these players may have on their team when the race is so tight. I don't follow those teams, but I know some are tight in the standings.

We don't even know if this is some attention seeking fabrication con job by a bitter ex-person. But the impact this puts on teams could be significant.
 

Sanderson

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Sep 10, 2002
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I have to hand it to some of you, you've found a way to drastically speed up the justice system. Since all it takes is an investigation and people turning themselves in to determined guilt we no longer need a slow, expensive and complicated legal process. No more judges, court rooms, discovery, 3rd party witnesses. No more jury duty.
Nice strawman there...

Being innocent until proven guilty applies to the court of law. No one here has stated otherwise, no matter how much you try to twist the words of other people.
That does not - in any way, shape or form - have anything to do with what people think of the situation. Their opinion is their opinion and does not infringe on any rights the people involved have. At no point in time has "innocent until proven guilty" meant that people must not forn on opinion on the matter until a court has made a decision, nor does any outcome of such a proceeding mean that people must shift their opinion in accordance with the outcome. Just look at OJ Simpson. He was found not guilty, yet most people still think he is, and so did a civil case.
Applying innocent until proven guilty to anything beyond a court case is akin to bringing up freedom of speech on any matter not involving the government, absurd from beginning to end. In fact, both are completely illogical.


It is also rather weird to go out of your way to defend people when you have little idea what happened, yet are very much fine with leveling the possiibility of false accusations against the victim. How is that not a double-standard? Somehow it is a okay to attach one crime (false accusations) against one person, yet absolutely nothing may be said against those who allegedly have committed another one? You are contradicting your own argument.

And no, a court doesn't decide whether someone is innocent or not. That's a question of morality, not law. A court decides whether there is deemed to be enough evidence to find someone guilty of the crime he is charged with. A court can very much acquit a person who did indeed commit the crime because there just is not enough evidence to prove his guilt. It happens often enough. Just like people get sentenced even though they are not guilty. And yes, someone can distance himself from people even if a court did not find them guilty, because a person (or a sports-league for that matter) does not need to adhere to the same standards as a court of law.

This isn't exactly a case of no one knowing what happened either. Everyone acknowledged what happened, they are just of different opinion what it meant. And that is something people can very much have an opinion about, including thinking the behaviour of the accused has been repugnant and worthy enough of losing their privilege to play in the NHL, regardless of whether a court finds that there is enough evidence to convict the accused.
 

archangel2

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May 19, 2019
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interesting to see how the US media and the Canadian media are covering this differently. In my opinion, the Canadian media is closing ranks to protect the "5 unnamed player"

for me there is a bigger issue. I believe there was a failed attempt to cover this up by hockey Canada and that is where I think there might be some massive problems in the future
 
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Osprey

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She said she was sober.
According to the Wikipedia page on the incident, "the woman states that she could not give consent to any of the actions because of how intoxicated she was..."
Didn't the original story involve 7 players? How is it possible 'only' 5 are getting charged if more than that allegedly committed a crime? Or do I have the numbers wrong?
According to the same page, "lawyers representing the players released text messages and videos to The Globe and Mail alleging that the woman consented to sexual acts with John Does 1–8." It could be that those text messages and videos were enough for the authorities to exonerate 3 of the players, but not enough to exonerate the other 5.
 

CanadienShark

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Dec 18, 2012
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Its still alleged sweetie. No one is guilty of anything. In my country people are innocent until proven guilty.


Sorry, it also applies to my morals too. I don't partake in the pitchfork justice.
Not true. They are "presumed innocent." There's a difference between innocence and the presumption of innocence. It may seem like a minor detail, but it's not.
 

ijuka

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May 14, 2016
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MOD WARNING:
When we say do not speculate what we're asking is that we need to keep specific player names out of the conversation until it's official. We've been legal actioned for less. Please and Thank You
Kinda confused about this, though. There is a freedom of speech, right? It should be legal to speculate. How could you get legal actioned for it? Do you have the actual laws that that speculation would potentially violate? Defamation or invasion of privacy don't seem to fit, for example.

If it's the forum rules, fine. But I'm not sure why you'd bring legal action here when that doesn't seem to apply.
 

ijuka

Registered User
May 14, 2016
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Its still alleged sweetie. No one is guilty of anything. In my country people are innocent until proven guilty.


Sorry, it also applies to my morals too. I don't partake in the pitchfork justice.
Alright. So, a person is either guilty or innocent. Immediately. The moment it happens. A person doesn't just magically become guilty upon a court ruling. They were guilty from the beginning. In a legal system, you presume innocence, indeed. But innocence or guilt aren't determined by court rulings. They just come to light. Or don't.
 

Hank Plank

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Jun 5, 2012
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Nice strawman there...

Being innocent until proven guilty applies to the court of law. No one here has stated otherwise, no matter how much you try to twist the words of other people.
That does not - in any way, shape or form - have anything to do with what people think of the situation. Their opinion is their opinion and does not infringe on any rights the people involved have. At no point in time has "innocent until proven guilty" meant that people must not forn on opinion on the matter until a court has made a decision, nor does any outcome of such a proceeding mean that people must shift their opinion in accordance with the outcome. Just look at OJ Simpson. He was found not guilty, yet most people still think he is, and so did a civil case.
Applying innocent until proven guilty to anything beyond a court case is akin to bringing up freedom of speech on any matter not involving the government, absurd from beginning to end. In fact, both are completely illogical.
I respectfully submit you have interpreted some posts poorly. Several people have outright said all it takes to consider someone guilty is being investigated and brought in for questioning. At best this is a dangerous attitude. Would you want such a person on a jury if you were on trial? And yes people can pass their judgements freely, and I am free to call them out. Also, you are not 100% free to pass judgement and talk about it publicly at some point it can become defamation. I know for a fact online forums have been sued for such a scenario.
It is also rather weird to go out of your way to defend people when you have little idea what happened, yet are very much fine with leveling the possiibility of false accusations against the victim. How is that not a double-standard? Somehow it is a okay to attach one crime (false accusations) against one person, yet absolutely nothing may be said against those who allegedly have committed another one? You are contradicting your own argument.
No I'm not, AT ALL. I was giving a counter point that not everyone charged is guilty. If you paid attention I said very clearly we should not come to any conclusion whatsoever until the legal process plays out. I am saying flat out, it is possible the accusations are true, or they are NOT TRUE. It is crystal clear you are not willing to accept the 2nd possibility. Speaking of contradictions, what you accused me of what you did yourself. I have little idea what happened, but you say:
This isn't exactly a case of no one knowing what happened either.
So which is it? You can't even get your own narrative straight.
And no, a court doesn't decide whether someone is innocent or not. That's a question of morality, not law. A court decides whether there is deemed to be enough evidence to find someone guilty of the crime he is charged with. A court can very much acquit a person who did indeed commit the crime because there just is not enough evidence to prove his guilt. It happens often enough. Just like people get sentenced even though they are not guilty. And yes, someone can distance himself from people even if a court did not find them guilty, because a person (or a sports-league for that matter) does not need to adhere to the same standards as a court of law.
A court 100% does decide, the legal judgement must be respected otherwise it becomes mob rule. A court may let a guilty person go free or imprison an innocent those are examples of miscarriage of justice and obviously we want to do everything possible to prevent that. The judgement in a court of law is THE final word on guilt or innocence. If we discount that we don't have a civilized society. It has to be respected, as soon as it isn't a given society is no longer safe. The legal system is highly adversarial for that very reason, the court strives to find the truth.

This isn't exactly a case of no one knowing what happened either. Everyone acknowledged what happened, they are just of different opinion what it meant. And that is something people can very much have an opinion about, including thinking the behaviour of the accused has been repugnant and worthy enough of losing their privilege to play in the NHL, regardless of whether a court finds that there is enough evidence to convict the accused.
Your prejudice is showing very clearly here.
 
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