Five members from Canada’s 2018 world junior team (Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote and Formenton) told to surrender to police, facing sexual assault charges

[Kane One]

I mean if we are considering this to be R*** then coming up for pizza and not doing anything else is absolutely heinous and no way that player deserves to be in the NHL.

What if that player thought it was consensual and simply didn’t want to participate?

 

[TheTotalPackage]

It’s a day wear bell brings mental health awareness across their platforms

Then shortly after they do their cutbacks and fire people

Yup. It's a huge farce.

 

[Seanaconda]

I mean if we are considering this to be R*** then coming up for pizza and not doing anything else is absolutely heinous and no way that player deserves to be in the NHL.

It may not have seemed like rape ?

I have never walked in on someone banging on mistake and lingered ,,

 

[BurnabyJoe7]

Enough evidence to lay charges does not mean enough evidence to convict.

I'm aware. The comment I responded to suggested the players charged continue playing hockey as if nothing has changed. The prosecutor feels they have enough evidence now to convict in court and these are no longer empty claims.

I'm not sure the comment you're replying to was trying to be mutually exclusive.

Obviously the primary concern is the victim who, assuming charges are accurate, went through a terribly traumatic experience that often has long term ramifications and can take a lot of work and processing to learn to live with/create a life around.

It doesn't minimize that significance to say that it's also quite heartbreaking for the people who have been cheering on these players and developed feelings of admiration for them.

Think of how you would feel if your favourite player (whether now or in the past) turned out to be guilty of an objectively horrendous act?

You wouldn't be the main victim as a heartbroken fan. But we can acknowledge that it would hurt, no?

I agree but the comment made no acknowledgement of the victim and so I was being facetious. That's like saying you feel bad for a school shooter's family without acknowledging any of the actual victims.

 

[Korpse]

I mean if we are considering this to be R*** then coming up for pizza and not doing anything else is absolutely heinous and no way that player deserves to be in the NHL.

Things aren’t always so black and white. You are operating on hindsight and a lot of assumptions.

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

I mean if we are considering this to be R*** then coming up for pizza and not doing anything else is absolutely heinous and no way that player deserves to be in the NHL.


So 3 players are getting away with it, or atleast the fact they could have stopped it but didn't or reported it but didn't. What does lack of evidence really mean in this situation like did 3 players not commit the act so that's why they got away with it? If I'm the NHL no way I think those 3 players deserve to be in my league.

It's not that they didn't commit an act, it just might not cross the threshold for criminality. Watching a gang rape and doing nothing may not be a criminal offence for example.

 

[canuckslover10]

Things aren’t always so black and white. You are operating on hindsight and a lot of assumptions.

Bruh idk I got a sister, I got nieces, I got a mother if any of these things happened to them and I heard some dude came up for pizza and left and did nothing he is just as guilty to me, maybe not within the eyes of the law but he could have easily reported it to coaches,police, heck even hotel staff anonymously but he didn't and that to me makes him just as guilty, and no way would I want him anywhere near the NHL assuming he's in the NHL.

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

I'm aware. The comment I responded to suggested the players charged continue playing hockey as if nothing has changed. The prosecutor feels they have enough evidence now to convict in court and isn't an empty claim.

I agree but the comment made no acknowledgement of the victim and so I was being facetious. That's like saying you feel bad for a school shooter's family without acknowledging any of the actual victims.

Maybe so but Crown prosecutors get it wrong. Some charges don't even make it through the preliminary hearing stage. It's too early to say. All we know is that the Crown feels they have a case.

 

[GeoRox89]

I mean, there are a couple possible reasons for the discrepancy between what the lawsuit said and what the crown is doing...

1) Potentially, eight players will be charged, but 3 of them might not have been from the WJC team. I believe from the 2022 documents we learned that all 8 players allegedly involved were CHL players but not all of them were necessarily WJC players -- and, since the other 3 aren't "big names," news just hasn't broken yet. The London police haven't released much.

2) More charges could be laid in the future; they're just going with the primarily culprits right now.

3) They don't have definitive evidence against additional players that they are confident they can prove were involved beyond reasonable doubt. Who knows what sort of evidence the police have (video showing players' faces? Testimony?). It's fully possible the lawsuit named 8 but the police could only definitively identity 5. The lawsuit might have also been somewhat mistaken. Who knows.

@canuckslover10 - to expand on point 3 using a case I’ll guess you’re familiar with based on the username:

Pickton is suspected of the murder of at least 49 women, was charged for 26 of them but charges were stayed for 20 of them due to the convictions for the 6 women whose murders were part of the charges at the trial.

 

[canuckslover10]

It's not that they didn't commit an act, it just might not cross the threshold for criminality. Watching a gang rape and doing nothing may not be a criminal offence for example.

Yes I get that but to me if this person is anywhere close to the NHL I'd want to know, I don't want to be wearing a jersey of a player who does this, the public deserves to know this players name as well and doesn't deserve to be hidden IMO.

maybe she was still able to give consent to those 3 players.

Bruh

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

Yes I get that but to me if this person is anywhere close to the NHL I'd want to know, I don't want to be wearing a jersey of a player who does this, the public deserves to know this players name as well and doesn't deserve to be hidden IMO.

If it gets to trial and these players are called upon to testify, then maybe that could shed some light.

The Canadian justice system is always more cautious when it comes to protecting those who are accused than the victims, at least that's my impression from what I've seen and read over the years.

 

[canuckslover10]

@canuckslover10 - to expand on point 3 using a case I’ll guess you’re familiar with based on the username:

Pickton is suspected of the murder of at least 49 women, was charged for 26 of them but charges were stayed for 20 of them due to the convictions for the 6 women whose murders were part of the charges at the trial.

I understand that maybe legally they can't charge them but IMO the public deserves to know their name. Especially if they are in pro hockey leagues where ppl are literally cheering for these players.

 

[jetssaying]

They'll be ok.

Yeah, I don't get why someone would post that. Who cares about the fans when it comes to something like this?

 

[Stealth1616]

Do we even know what the charges will be?

Bruh idk I got a sister, I got nieces, I got a mother if any of these things happened to them and I heard some dude came up for pizza and left and did nothing he is just as guilty to me, maybe not within the eyes of the law but he could have easily reported it to coaches,police, heck even hotel staff anonymously but he didn't and that to me makes him just as guilty, and no way would I want him anywhere near the NHL assuming he's in the NHL.

This is probably easy to say right now, but if you were 19, would you really “rat” on your friends that easily.

Most people think they have some kind of moral superiority on the internet but I am guessing most would act the same way

 

[AlphaLackey]

I mean if we are considering this to be R*** then coming up for pizza and not doing anything else is absolutely heinous and no way that player deserves to be in the NHL.


So 3 players are getting away with it, or atleast the fact they could have stopped it but didn't or reported it but didn't. What does lack of evidence really mean in this situation like did 3 players not commit the act so that's why they got away with it? If I'm the NHL no way I think those 3 players deserve to be in my league.

It is entirely possible that what happened in the first ten minutes was not sexual assault. It is entirely possible that what happened up until that video ended was fully consensual. It is absolutely possible that the alleged crimes happened after the video ended and after JD 6-8 were long gone.

Remember, using Blackstone's Ratio literally, a guilty conviction means that the convicted person is at least -1000 to actually be guilty. If that standard can't be met, the conviction can't be given. And rather than open the NHL up to all kinds of potential litigation issues and all manners of union battles (because as Duke Lacrosse vs OJ shows us, not all odds below -1000 are identical), they could rightly be understood to set the standards based on what happens in the legal system.

And with that in mind, "indefinite suspension while charges are pending, suspension until after any legal penalty is concerned, reinstatement handled on a case by case basis" is the most logical way the NHL could navigate it; it's allowed them to handle the two very different cases of Slava Voynov and Austin Watson in appropriate fashion in the past, so I (for now) have faith in it here.

 

[robertmac43]

Wow SN actually bringing this up on the Leafs broadcast.

 

[canuckslover10]

If it gets to trial and these players are called upon to testify, then maybe that could shed some light.

The Canadian justice system is always more cautious when it comes to protecting those who are accused than the victims, at least that's my impression from what I've seen and read over the years.

That is true, personally though I'd be furious if these other people are not named no matter how little their involvement was.

 

[Rob Brown]

Wow SN actually bringing this up on the Leafs broadcast.

Hard for us to ignore speculating here when they are straight up linking the investigation and the players taking a leave...

 

[AlphaLackey]

Yeah, I don't get why someone would post that. Who cares about the fans when it comes to something like this?

The fans, I'm not concerned about. If one of the convicted players was on my jersey, I'd dump it. If they were on my fantasy replay team, I'd petition the commish to let me cut them and they'd likely acquiesce. Easy enough to be a fan.

Innocent friends and teammates and relatives, I can find sympathy for. MacLeod's brother is absolutely getting raked over the coals. Batherson may well be innocent of the ugly rumors going his way. And yes, even if you're a friend or teammate of someone accused of such a thing, that f***s you up -- not just even if but especially if they're guilty.

 

[Korpse]

Bruh idk I got a sister, I got nieces, I got a mother if any of these things happened to them and I heard some dude came up for pizza and left and did nothing he is just as guilty to me, maybe not within the eyes of the law but he could have easily reported it to coaches,police, heck even hotel staff anonymously but he didn't and that to me makes him just as guilty, and no way would I want him anywhere near the NHL assuming he's in the NHL.

You are assuming they witnessed the incident in full and knew it was sexual assault as it happened. There isn’t a label on the wall saying this is sexual assault. A big problem lies within sex education and a lot of people have probably crossed a line into sexual assualt and don’t even know it. We also don’t know what was witnessed, all that is none is that at least one other player was present in the room at some point.

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

Hard for us to ignore speculating here when they are straight up linking the investigation and the players taking a leave...

They also have Rogers behind them. Maybe HF can afford lawyers too but if they can nip it in the bud, then that's the smart thing to do.

 

[Bone Density]

Seeing people worry about roster spots and cap space is troubling. My only thoughts today are with that young woman.

 

[Rob]

I thought speculation wasn't allowed.

 

[Leafs87]

HF has higher standards than SN. We can’t speculate here but they just did live on air

 

[AlphaLackey]

Bruh idk I got a sister, I got nieces, I got a mother if any of these things happened to them and I heard some dude came up for pizza and left and did nothing he is just as guilty to me, maybe not within the eyes of the law but he could have easily reported it to coaches,police, heck even hotel staff anonymously but he didn't and that to me makes him just as guilty, and no way would I want him anywhere near the NHL assuming he's in the NHL.

Do you have a brother, and/or do you have nephews? And if so, how would you react if an angry mod wanted their livelihoods destroyed because of guilt by association based on what their teammates did long after they left the room, for something that happened when they were a minor and something they didn't even take part of?