Five members from Canada’s 2018 world junior team (Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote and Formenton) told to surrender to police, facing sexual assault charges

[Number8]

OK, I want to be careful about the "well why would someone do this" kind of reasoning.

Because it can work both ways - "why would someone make up a false allegation - she must be telling the truth!". Because there's also "these are successful and famous hockey players who have women draped all over them. They don't need to rape anyone - they must be innocent!".

The truth is people do all kinds of strange things for very strange reasons.

The only thing we can do is follow the evidence, wherever it might lead.

They do, but in 2018 none of these guys were famous hockey players.

Regardless, 5+ years later she is signing up for additional months and months of scrutiny and heartache. For what? Justice, it seems.

I do understand that we can’t just blindly accept that someone is being truthful simply because they are cooperating in this way and that that cooperation comes at a cost. I admit that is in essence that is what I am doing here, but ONLY in order to counter the knee jerk “false claims” trope.

Again, I’m not saying she’s right and that they are guilty. Only that common sense dictates that she believes she has been wronged and wants justice. We’ll see what happens when the facts are fully heard.

Meanwhile? Can people here spare me the “false claim” arguments. Unless they have some concrete reasoning why that might be the case. If so I’m all ears and will eagerly await such.

Insurance fraud is common — I’m sure much more than false sexual assault claims. Should insurance companies be able to say “we’re not paying the claim because, you know, people do insurance fraud all the time”? That’s essentially what some here are arguing.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

For the idiots who keep repeating this claim as though its disposative, the number of accusations proven false is between 2 and 10 percent. That figure only includes claims that were clearly proven to be false and not claims which could not be adjudicated either way. Conversely, only between 5 and 10% of accusations result in convictions (I.e., proven to be clearly true). The great majority are indetermined. That's just the reality because these things tend to happen in private.

The pendulum was so far in one direction it was basically stuck.

False accusations suck massively, and of course, any wrongful convictions would even more, but we have barely scratched the surface of ever leveling the playing field. Like, it's still 1,000,000 to 1 basically. Humans have a long history of using power to gorge themselves on society that continues in our society now, and it requires a very long game of course correction and education. It amazes me there's already so much push back amongst society because of outlier minority situations like false SA claims. Some talk about it like its an epidemic. You know what the real epidemic is? Sexual Assault!

I can still picture myself at parties as a teenager, "C'mon bro, we'll get er drunk and do all the work for you", "you just come make sure you're ready bro!" as I uncomfortably refuse and disappear unannounced out a back door. Or getting a bare asshole on my face in the middle of the dressing room as I'm held down in front of coaches. Makes me sick to think this was getting off light.

 

[I am toxic]

Looking through these lawyer written statements, I think it’s pretty easy to tell who may be a witness, if the statements are to be believed word for word

ETA: the one pizza guy rumors makes some sense if you take these at 100% face value. The Fabbro statement makes me chuckle for some reason

The thing to remember is the agents may lie - like Foote's did, whether knowingly or unwittingly- but the lawyer statements are carefully crafted to convey a falsehood while not being an outright lie. But once that is known, then their statements become less murky.


Eta: it's interesting that four of the six players associated with Fenton went on to make additional statements of their own clarifying that they were not involved.

Carter Hart of course remained silent.

 

[AnInjuredJasonZucker]

Oh no you have been added

It's basically like being removed from a telemarketer's call list.

 

[Scintillating10]

Why wasn't they allowed to play until found guilty? Take years to go through courts.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

The thing to remember is the agents may lie - like Foote's did, whether knowingly or unwittingly- but the lawyer statements are carefully crafted to convey a falsehood while not being an outright lie. But once that is known, then their statements become less murky.

Yeah, I think it’s clear who 2 of the witnesses are, and maybe gives some credence to the rumor that one of the 5 players was “told on”. One of the players who’s name was brought up often and whose career played out a little strangely should be pissed if he isn’t involved in any way, which I believe his statement indicates

 

[Pablo El Perro]

Why wasn't they allowed to play until found guilty? Take years to go through courts.

Teams probably didn't want to deal with it.

 

[Uncle Rotter]

Just some clarification on the timeline. I believe this does not affect the main point you are making.

1). In 2018, the victim immediately went to the police and reported what happened. However, the police investigation was soon abandoned without any charges.

Didn't her father contact Hockey Canada before the police were involved?

 

[Strangle]

Is 34 years old "old"?

Eff me.

When you go to the barber and don’t ask for “wings and curtains”, you’re old on the internet

 

[333359]

Why wasn't they allowed to play until found guilty? Take years to go through courts.

Would look really shitty to have a rapist on your team.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

In my mind if someone is nasty and cruel enough to report false rape to authorities I believe that he/she should receive same punishment that rapist would get. It is real crime and this behavior worsen the reputations of actual victims. It's sickening that nowadays normal people must always at least assume that there is a chance that case is hoax.

Sure nowadays a lot of people are in #believeallwomen crowd who are willing to always believe that accused are guilty. But there are sick people out there who are willing to ruin someones live with lies.

There is enough hoaxes for past few years to prove my point.

Then there's the fact that the ones you think are hoaxes are piss poor jobs done by the police departments protecting the rapist or attempting to trick the victims into retracting by making them think it was consentual. There's a lot you think you know and then when you think you've got it figured out you find out more facts and realize you were wrong.

There's a lot of documentaries out there about a lot of these cases that go the way I just described and you'd be shocked at how many of the so called "false allegations" are just insane police misconduct and almost none of them have to take any heat for it and end up continuing their careers without issue.

 

[jcs0218]

I am obviously not informed of all the available evidence that police have. Nobody is unless you are the police, the crown attorney's office, and soon the defense lawyers.

But based on what I do know, it is going to be hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that these players are guilty.

Especially the video they filmed of her saying it was all consensual after the supposed sexual assault occurred.

How will they prove that this video was a result of coercion?

Because that is what they would need to do.

 

[SmytheKing]

Are you informed?

Do you have inside information that the rest of us don't?

Or are you just jumping to conclusions?

It's not really "inside information". It's just that people think "reasonable doubt" means any doubt. That's not what it means. It means, is the doubt presented "reasonable". That said, if the doubt presented is a video after the fact where the alleged victim appears to be wiping away tears, is it REASONABLE to think that's consent without coercion? After hearing testimony that she tried leaving several times, the players have stated (from what I recall hearing but I could be wrong here) that they thought they heard her crying in the bathroom, and that they kept preventing her from leaving and coercing her to stay?

I think most people would be able to come to the conclusion that she didn't want to be there and acquiesced under pressure to not only record the video but to do these acts with the players. There are also people who won't come to that conclusion.

 

[jcs0218]

It's not really "inside information". It's just that people think "reasonable doubt" means any doubt. That's not what it means. It means, is the doubt presented "reasonable". That said, if the doubt presented is a video after the fact where the alleged victim appears to be wiping away tears, is it REASONABLE to think that's consent without coercion? After hearing testimony that she tried leaving several times, the players have stated (from what I recall hearing but I could be wrong here) that they thought they heard her crying in the bathroom, and that they kept preventing her from leaving and coercing her to stay?

I think most people would be able to come to the conclusion that she didn't want to be there and acquiesced under pressure to not only record the video but to do these acts with the players. There are also people who won't come to that conclusion.

The players don't have to reasonably prove that the consent was without coercion.

The burden of proof is on the prosecutors to prove that it was coerced, or prove that she wanted to leave and wasn't allowed.

This is going to be difficult to prove. That was all I was saying.

If I was a betting man, I would bet that this case results in a "not guilty" verdict. And yes, I know that is different than "they are innocent".

We will see.

 

[Deadly Dogma]

Would look really shitty to have a rapist on your team.

From what I read of the Bay street bullies, if this was the 70's all 4 would be playing for Philly, they embraced the bad guy role 1 million %

 

[SmytheKing]

The players don't have to reasonably prove that the consent was without coercion.

The burden of proof is on the prosecutors to prove that it was coerced, or prove that she wanted to leave and wasn't allowed.

This is going to be difficult to prove. That was all I was saying.

If I was a betting man, I would bet that this case results in a "not guilty" verdict. And yes, I know that is different than "they are innocent".

We will see.

I didn't say they had to prove it. I said "reasonable doubt" has to be "reasonable". The defense will use that video as their "proof" it was consensual. It's up to a jury to think, after hearing and seeing everything else, if it is reasonable to conclude that.

Just having that video isn't some magic bullet as you're seeming to suggest. I don't think it will weigh as heavy as you believe it will with all the other statements and timelines that we know about at this time.

 

[333359]

Well neither would have these guys if the incident didn’t leak to the public.

I mean that's true for any crime. If you can cover it up from the public then it's called getting away with it.

 

[Tofveve]

What? The woman is suffering from the effects, regardless of what a court finds. You think if the the players are found not guilty, the woman will all of a sudden be ok? And say: oh, I guess I wasn't assaulted.

This thread is so weird.

Do you think the effects would be worse if she was assaulted or just lying about them?

The best scenario for all involved is that she lied. Unless you'd rather that she was telling the truth and assaulted. Think about it.

 

[wraithsonwings]

That’s certainly a potential factor but self-blame by victims of any kind of abuse or assault is a really common experience and complicated reaction. Rape in particular is an incredibly traumatic disempowering experience where someone takes your control away. Even though rape is never the victim’s fault and even victim’s usually understand that in a theoretical sense, feeling like all your power has been taken away can cause you to try to regain a sense of control by blaming yourself for certain behaviours that you think contributed. To a traumatized person’s brain, avoiding those things and being at fault means I can keep myself safe from this happening again as long as I do x/y/z (even if/when that happens to be completely untrue)

It’s really common in DV and child abuse situations too. Very few people blame a child for their abuse (and only some really messed up people would) but that doesn’t stop abused kids from coming up with all sorts of things they should be have done or how to not upset their abuser or how to achieve some impossible standard that doesn’t exist to stop the abuse from continuing

Victim blaming is wrong but even if we completely eliminated it from society, many abuse/assault victims are still likely to blame themselves especially in the immediate aftermath while they try to regain their sense of safety and control

I totally agree with everything you've said here. People do blame themselves for lots of bad things that happen that aren't their fault.

It's just that sexual assault has some of the most egregious victim blaming. It's exhausting.

 

[Oscar The Grouch]

Do you think the effects would be worse if she was assaulted or just lying about them?

The best scenario for all involved is that she lied. Unless you'd rather that she was telling the truth and assaulted. Think about it.

Your weirdo hypothetical thought-exercise is completely f***ed, but I'm gonna participate. That fact does not validate it or you.

If she was lying, then she wouldn't be affected. Are you suggesting the best outcome is that she was never affected, and lied the whole time? Do you really think, after reviewing all the information to date, that's something that might have happened? That, the next morning, she sneakily slipped into the shower so her parents would find her catatonic? And, despite one failed investigation, she's pushed her story forward for years?

VS.

A bunch of drunk male teens, among the best drunk teen athletes in the world, in a small city, decided they might be able to get away with a hardcore porn fantasy on some nobody girl?

Ok.

 

[oilexport]

I just wanna say that I know some male jerks that need to change their attitude.

I also wanna say that I know women who are malicious and need to change their attitude.

So the ugly part of life is there for all kinds of bad people.

Hope justice is served - But I'll wait for all that confidential info the cops and players can't talk about now.

 

[Pablo El Perro]

Your weirdo hypothetical thought-exercise is completely f***ed, but I'm gonna participate. That fact does not validate it or you.

If she was lying, then she wouldn't be effected. Are you suggesting the best outcome is that she was never affected, and lied the whole time? Do you really think, after reviewing all the information to date, that's something that might have happened? That, the next morning, she sneakily slipped into the shower so her parents would find her catatonic? And, despite one failed investigation, she's pushed her story forward for years?

VS.

A bunch of drunk male teens, among the best drunk teen athletes in the world, in a small city, decided they might be able to get away with a hardcore porn fantasy on some nobody girl?

Ok.

Utilitarians are an odd lot.

 

[Oscar The Grouch]

Do you think the effects would be worse if she was assaulted or just lying about them?

The best scenario for all involved is that she lied. Unless you'd rather that she was telling the truth and assaulted. Think about it.

Yes. The best case scenario is that she was telling the truth and was assaulted.

It would empower assault victims everywhere and validate the justice system in the face of high-priced defense lawyers.

 

[Kane One]

I'm at work and don't have time to google it. Just link me to the court records please. I'll read it later. Thank you.

Trevor Bauer reveals texts, bed video as he and accuser settle lawsuits

Former MLB pitcher Trevor Bauer and Lindsey Hill settled their lawsuits Monday without any money getting exchanged between the two sides.

nypost.com

 

[Sugi21]

Why wasn't they allowed to play until found guilty? Take years to go through courts.

You think that any player could play 100% while going through something like this? Also it would look bad on the teams if said players are found guilty and were let to play during the whole process