Five members from Canada’s 2018 world junior team (Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote and Formenton) told to surrender to police, facing sexual assault charges

[Nut Upstrom]

If so...I apologize to @Nut Upstrom

Been attacked over and over on here and on social media.

I will show you the mirror

No apology needed man. Your initial response was perfect. My point was that most of us are content to back EM and see those involved punished. You are going well beyond that in an almost Don Quixote like quest to burn down anyone or anything whose fingerprint may be on anything associated with this. I think it is a very unrealistic hope that hardly seems worth mentioning to most, but you have doubled down, triple downed and never backed down on it like a mad dog with a bone. And I truly do dig that about you even as I shake my head and tell myself, 'too bad that will never happen.'

As to the 'very thin thread' line, I was just using the entire quote from the movie (Jerry Maguire). I could explain it to you but naw, you can find the clip if you're so inclined. The I dig that about you felt a little naked without the rest of the quote.

Anyways, keep doing what you're doing.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Curious how many people debating this topic are women. Would be interested in their opinion over all the mansplaining of "he said/ she said" going on in here.

 

[TopC0rner]

Not going to prison is the point.


If you don’t want to be judged in the casual sense, don’t put yourself in a position or do something people would probably judge you for.


If we at least accept that there was a gang bang, whether or not it should have been obvious to the boys it was consensual, that and the context it happened in is sketchy as f*** lol.

In various trainings about what do to in situations (like ethics training), they teach that the question you should ask yourself before doing something isn't "is this criminal, can I go to jail?", but rather "would I be ashamed if this made the front news?".

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

All I know if that if I stopped and took a screenshot for every post online that I vehemently oppose, I wouldn’t have time to take a poop.

 

[Edgelord]

well yes, they do. but my comment was directed at the statement that rape culutre is mens culture. the overwhelming majority of men don't support, encourage or commit rape.

I think it depends how we look at it. If we look at in in the context of the Western World in the last 100-150 yrs than I agree.
However if you look at other cultures, they use rape as a weapon, the Moorish invasion of Europe, Hamas, ISIS, European nobles (prima nocta) etc.
Then if we look at human history on the macro scale its even more prevalent. So it seems to me to be a dark part of humans mixed with power dynamics.

 

[57special]

Just reading some articles and noticed the below quote. Link to article included. I haven't seen it before, and never heard anyone on the boards mention it.

So my question is, what if she did do this, while intoxicated ? It gets tougher to prosecute ?

Agent says former World Junior player unsure of what he witnessed in London hotel room - TSN.ca

A player on Canada’s 2018 World Juniors hockey team who was present in a London, Ont., hotel room at the time of an alleged sexual assault told police during their initial investigation he was not a participant in what transpired and left the room unsure of what he had witnessed, the player’s...

www.tsn.ca

"The players say that the woman in this case was encouraging other players to participate,” the lawyer said.

Just goes to show that we don't know exactly what happened in the room. It could be that the woman was fine with what was going on at first, then changed her mind at some point, or changed her mind after the incident. We also don't know how intoxicated she was. To me, I am still shaking my head at any of the gang bangers even if it was completely consensual, and it sounds like the one person who left was of the same mind.

Decades ago in my hometown, there was a "rape" case. All of the participants were under 16, some under 14. I believe the girl was 15. It was consensual on her part- they all knew one another, and hung out. It was only after she told her sister a couple of days later, who then told her parents, that she claimed it was non consensual. Because of the ages of everyone involved, there was no jail, but the ones over 14 went to "Juvy" as they used to call it. I've forgotten how long, might've been at least a year, maybe more.

Just saying that things might not be as clear cut as we'd like to think. That's what the trial is about... to figure out, as much as possible, what did happen... not what either side says happened, but what DID happen.

 

[Musampa]

If the information about their texting the next day is true then I bet that everything was consensual. Looks like it was her parents who started the whole story. And what at first was a standard case for young people (yes, young people love a variety of entertainment that older people consider terrible) turned into a real nightmare, ruining the lives of both the players and the girl herself.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

It’s not just hockey culture, it’s men’s culture. Sooner people realize that, the better.

Idk. Most men will never be accused of rape just like most women won’t falsely accuse a guy of rape. It’s a a smaller number dirtying the bath water for all involved

 

[ThaDevilGirl]

Curious how many people debating this topic are women. Would be interested in their opinion over all the mansplaining of "he said/ she said" going on in here.

Every time I find myself reading this thread, or the other threads that have surged back when this story was brought to light, I get angry. Most posters are fine but there's always a bunch of posters that cannot resist being contrarians and it affects me. Meanwhile, if some people rather wait and see how the proceedings go before judging, that's fine and it should be the way to go in a legal case.

I'm canadian but I read american outlets and for the past 1-2 years reading the news from our neighbours have been difficult. So reading about this sexual assault and people casting doubts on the victim considering what we know so far, it just adds up to the anger.

 

[Crosby2010]

It is an old school way of thinking for whatever reason nowadays, but I will wait until things are tested in court and everyone has their say. The truth comes out one way or another.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

There is countless of false rape accusations each year. Athletes are often victims of this behavior, because fame and money.

Studies say that 8-10% of rape accusations turn to be false. I don't have evidence that athletes have highter % of false accusations, but it is easy to assume this.

Evander Kane, Jake Virtanen, Matt Araiza and countless others are victims of trully heinous crimes.

And how many of those result in actual charges and those cases going to trial? Of the ones you listed, only Virtanen's went to trial.

The point being, saying the bolded assumes that ALL these accusations fall into one category ignoring the fact that some of them have more evidence that a rape occurred than others do, hence why some cases the prosecution believes it can get a conviction while the others seem more dubious.

So this need to whitewash ALL allegations as part of this "false allegations happen all the time" suggests that all these allegations had the exact same amount of evidence (or lack of evidence) that a crime was committed.

 

[TopC0rner]

And how many of those result in actual charges and those cases going to trial? Of the ones you listed, only Virtanen's went to trial.

The point being, saying the bolded assumes that ALL these accusations fall into one category ignoring the fact that some of them have more evidence that a rape occurred than others do, hence why some cases the prosecution believes it can get a conviction while the others seem more dubious.

So this need to whitewash ALL allegations as part of this "false allegations happen all the time" suggests that all these allegations had the exact same amount of evidence (or lack of evidence) that a crime was committed.

Even then, one's acquittal doesn't mean that the allegations are false. It means the allegations aren't strong enough to make a case beyond reasonable doubt.

Accusing someone falsely or making a false court statement both fall under the criminal code. If the same people held the same standards (beyond reasonable doubt), the only false allegations they would retain are those of people found guilty of doing that.

In Virtanen's case, the allegations could be true and he could be not guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt". Both can be true and those who automatically label all non guilty cases as the allegations being untrue are apologists to the rape culture.

 

[PunchImlach is Alive]

It is an old school way of thinking for whatever reason nowadays, but I will wait until things are tested in court and everyone has their say. The truth comes out one way or another.

People worshipping fire used to be an old school way of thinking too

 

[T REX]

All I know if that if I stopped and took a screenshot for every post online that I vehemently oppose, I wouldn’t have time to take a poop.

Let me tell you a quick story...about a guy named "Jeff" in Alberta. He made some remarks about how the alleged victim sounded like just his type of girl...a party girl. When a female commented that was uncalled for he then proceeded to call her too ugly to be a puck bunny and the female was jealous. Then posted a pic of a train. Screenshot. The screenshot was sent to "Jeff's" mother and fiance. That post was removed within the hour.

Having dated a rape victim, this hits way too close to home.

Like devil girl said above...wanting to wait and see is perfectly fine. But all out victim blaming or shaming should not be tolerated. We have freedom of speech but not freedom of consequence for said speech. You have every right to post nasty remarks. But don't be surprised when someone takes a screenshot then puts them on your birthday post for all your friends and family to see what a disgusting POS you are...and I have no problem someone doing the same to me.

But I doubt any of my family or better half(she was an on campus certified sexual assault advocate at both colleges she attended for undergrad and grad school - anecdotal but many many rapes go unreported for a variety of reasons)...I doubt any of my family will be upset about my posts wanting to root out rape culture.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Every time I find myself reading this thread, or the other threads that have surged back when this story was brought to light, I get angry. Most posters are fine but there's always a bunch of posters that cannot resist being contrarians and it affects me. Meanwhile, if some people rather wait and see how the proceedings go before judging, that's fine and it should be the way to go in a legal case.

I'm canadian but I read american outlets and for the past 1-2 years reading the news from our neighbours have been difficult. So reading about this sexual assault and people casting doubts on the victim considering what we know so far, it just adds up to the anger.

The culture of marginalizing and shaming the victim is why victims are reluctant to speak out. Its a vicious cycle that needs to be broken. Its disheartening reading the takes in this thread. And that's all i am going to say on the matter.

 

[Edgelord]

Every time I find myself reading this thread, or the other threads that have surged back when this story was brought to light, I get angry. Most posters are fine but there's always a bunch of posters that cannot resist being contrarians and it affects me. Meanwhile, if some people rather wait and see how the proceedings go before judging, that's fine and it should be the way to go in a legal case.

I'm canadian but I read american outlets and for the past 1-2 years reading the news from our neighbours have been difficult. So reading about this sexual assault and people casting doubts on the victim considering what we know so far, it just adds up to the anger.

I get the sense this case is a whole lotta grey rather than black and white.
If looked at in a purely black-and-white viewpoint, many posts will fall on the negative side when in reality they fall in that grey area.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

Let me tell you a quick story...about a guy named "Jeff" in Alberta. He made some remarks about how the alleged victim sounded like just his type of girl...a party girl. When a female commented that was uncalled for he then proceeded to call her too ugly to be a puck bunny and the female was jealous. Then posted a pic of a train. Screenshot. The screenshot was sent to "Jeff's" mother and fiance. That post was removed within the hour.

Having dated a rape victim, this hits way too close to home.

Like devil girl said above...wanting to wait and see is perfectly fine. But all out victim blaming or shaming should not be tolerated. We have freedom of speech but not freedom of consequence for said speech. You have every right to post nasty remarks. But don't be surprised when someone takes a screenshot then puts them on your birthday post for all your friends and family to see what a disgusting POS you are...and I have no problem someone doing the same to me.

But I doubt any of my family or better half(she was an on campus certified sexual assault advocate at both colleges she attended for undergrad and grad school - anecdotal but many many rapes go unreported for a variety of reasons)...I doubt any of my family will be upset about my posts wanting to root out rape culture.

Good luck with your mission. I learned long ago that this rock we share with, what is it now, 7 billion people is full of idiots and you can’t let every single one of them bother you every single time with their nonsense.

 

[theVladiator]

Just goes to show that we don't know exactly what happened in the room. It could be that the woman was fine with what was going on at first, then changed her mind at some point, or changed her mind after the incident. We also don't know how intoxicated she was. To me, I am still shaking my head at any of the gang bangers even if it was completely consensual, and it sounds like the one person who left was of the same mind.

Decades ago in my hometown, there was a "rape" case. All of the participants were under 16, some under 14. I believe the girl was 15. It was consensual on her part- they all knew one another, and hung out. It was only after she told her sister a couple of days later, who then told her parents, that she claimed it was non consensual. Because of the ages of everyone involved, there was no jail, but the ones over 14 went to "Juvy" as they used to call it. I've forgotten how long, might've been at least a year, maybe more.

Just saying that things might not be as clear cut as we'd like to think. That's what the trial is about... to figure out, as much as possible, what did happen... not what either side says happened, but what DID happen.

Confusing post.

Part 1: "Hey, I have a story to tell where a girl changes her mind, and the judicial process gets it wrong"

Part 2: "Hey, lets wait for the judicial process to play out and to tell us what REALLY happened here"

 

[T REX]

In that instance, his comments were not cool.
But my point is the lens through which we see the world is very different and there is a chance one of what may be seen as bad by some is just an off-colored joke to others.

I worked for years with helping kids/young men that were child soldiers out of Sudan and Somalia, More or less in a big brother type roll, but with more psychology involved.
Also with kids that were saved from actual cults.
The main thing they all share at 1st is this inability to absorb information that goes against their programming.
I still talk to the Dr's that work there and in the last few years they are seeing more and more SJW (not exactly SJW, but adjacent) types that have also been essentially programmed at college or university.
For context, I am into RC cars and thats what I used in a 1 on 1 environment to get the kid in the moment. With the type of deprogramming they are seeing now, I would offer 0 help since I don't fit the demo needed. Its mainly detransisioners now and a big brother type thing would just be patronizing to a 33yr old.
Anyhow, that was just to reinforce the point that people through no fault of their own may not see things the same way.

I don't disagree with anything you said. Let's just say I am very picky should I choose to get that involved. Normally, I just block the poster. But if someone goes above and beyond through MY LENS and it seems that normal discourse is useless...social pressure from within their own social circle seems to be good way to get them to reconsider vile behavior. If you're man enough to post it, be man enough to accept the consequences. If change happens one person at a time...so be it. At least, I'll have a good conscience through MY OWN LENS.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

There is countless of false rape accusations each year. Athletes are often victims of this behavior, because fame and money.

Studies say that 8-10% of rape accusations turn to be false. I don't have evidence that athletes have highter % of false accusations, but it is easy to assume this.

Evander Kane, Jake Virtanen, Matt Araiza and countless others are victims of trully heinous crimes.

Patrick Kane is the big one.

Everyone was positive he was going down , and then it turned out to be a hoax.

Only a couple of years ago you can probably find the threads.

 

[Novak Djokovic]

Heinous actions aside (with lack of consent and some of the "acts" involved), it's really weird to me to be inviting multiple friends to join your one night stand. Is this a sports culture, or frat boy thing?

Just so bizzarre having 6-7 of your friends naked in a room participating in sexual acts. Wild concept to me.

 

[Edgelord]

Heinous actions aside (with lack of consent and some of the "acts" involved), it's really weird to me to be inviting multiple friends to join your one night stand. Is this a sports culture, or frat boy thing?

Just so bizzarre having 6-7 of your friends naked in a room participating in sexual acts. Wild concept to me.

its in the military as well, Visiting buddies on base, I have seen things...........

Can a MOD PM please? Noticing posts removed and was hoping for clarification as to why,
Not political, offensive and was relative to thread.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Heinous actions aside (with lack of consent and some of the "acts" involved), it's really weird to me to be inviting multiple friends to join your one night stand. Is this a sports culture, or frat boy thing?

Just so bizzarre having 6-7 of your friends naked in a room participating in sexual acts. Wild concept to me.

Yeah very strange

There is seeing your buddy nude in the shower and then there is seeing your buddy nude ready to, you know. It has to be a learned thing because it's certainly not a natural impulse/desire

 

[Frank Drebin]

Curious how many people debating this topic are women. Would be interested in their opinion over all the mansplaining of "he said/ she said" going on in here.

What?

 

[Edgelord]

What?

the term mansplaining implies that woman-splaining must also exist, so I am more curious to hear a woman-splaining example of he said/she said.