Five members from Canada’s 2018 world junior team (Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote and Formenton) told to surrender to police, facing sexual assault charges

[AzHawk]

‘Hockey culture’ is a euphemism.

for what?

 

[Nut Upstrom]

False accusations are less than .5% of all sexual assualts.

This is the mental gymnastics you wanna play with me?

Coincidence? Disgusting projection is more like it. Please do not quote or respond to any more of my posts in this thread.

SMDH. If anyone wants to see the problems with hockey culture go to twitter X or facebook or Instagram and see all the disgusting comments posted. Shameful. Barely any empathy at all. Most are Canadians. I have all the screenshots if the mods will allow it. You want to know why this is still going on? LET ME SHOW YOU. Mods?

Most of us coming in here to defend this woman are the torches and pitchfork mob. But you, sir, are the flame thrower and battle axe.

I say this with all respect:
You are hanging on by a very thin thread...

 

[T REX]

Most of us coming in here to defend this woman are the torches and pitchfork mob. But you, sir, are the flame thrower and battle axe.

I say this with all respect:
You are hanging on by a very thin thread...



View attachment 814528

Hanging by a thin thread by WHOM?

I'm open and honest. Who has me by a thread?

I'm just asking if some of you are ready to see the underbelly of Canadian hockey fans. I always take screen shots to back up what I say...if the mods will allow it...I'd love to share some of comments social media. Document, document, document. Learned a long time ago. The internet is forever.

You wanna be THAT guy? Own it. Don't go trying to hide after calling EM a "sl*t" and post a TRAIN gif. If it was a one off or 2 off? We are talking HUNDREDS of misogynistic posts. Who is ready for the truth?

Then try to tell me hockey culture doesn't have a problem.

 

[Edgelord]

Hanging by a thin thread by WHOM?

I'm open and honest. Who has me by a thread?

I'm just asking if some of you are ready to see the underbelly of Canadian hockey fans. I always take screen shots to back up what I say...if the mods will allow it...I'd love to share some of comments social media. Document, document, document. Learned a long time ago. The internet is forever.

You wanna be THAT guy? Own it. Don't go trying to hide after calling EM a "sl*t" and post a TRAIN gif. If it was a one off or 2 off? We are talking HUNDREDS of misogynistic posts. Who is ready for the truth?

Then try to tell me hockey culture doesn't have a problem.

It's not like we don't know, lol
Sport culture, music culture, Hollywood culture is all the same.
You're attributing a dark aspect of power dynamics to just hockey when it's there in everything.
By power dynamics, I am talking about social power, groupies are not there for Post Malone's physique. Fame, money etc is a huge draw.

We know it (an extreme type of misogynism in those cultures) exists but are able to manage our outrage to things that directly affect our lives.
Not to be callous but I don't know a single person who even knows any of the people involved, so it really doesn't affect my life enough to warrant me to be constantly outraged.

 

[catnip]

People who were in the room and did nothing are people their teammate/friend felt comfortable casually inviting to a gang bang. This has, dare I say it, implications. If I'm the type of person who supposedly routinely records consent videos for my cosensual sexual encounters, I'm going to have a pretty damn carefully curated list of people I text about my exploits in group chat. The list of people I would invite to join in is even shorter. Loose lips sink ships etc.

The point being, the alleged ringleader didn't think these guys would have a problem with what was going on. Possibly because they've been involved before without issue (in consensual encounters). That at least one of them then felt uncomfortable enough to leave and basically admit (via his agent) that he felt iffy about the situation is, let's say, interesting.

Also, 6 seconds is not a proper consent video prepared in co-operation with all the parties involved. I'd like to see what happens before and after those seconds.

Also also, I don't understand people who conclude that this is a slam-dunk acquittal because "there's a video". Don't we think prosecution is aware of said video? Doesn't prosecution have a duty to consider whether a case is winnable? This is not your average he said, she said. This is five guys and a couple of recordings said, she said. And somehow the prosecution still likes their chances... Not saying anyone's going to be convicted of anything, just that it's incredibly silly to dismiss that option out of hand. We don't know anything the prosecution doesn't know.

 

[Harvey Birdman]

‘Hockey culture’ is a euphemism.

In topics like this. Best not to beat around the bush and use playful language. But instead be plain and clear. Speak plainly would be my recommendation.

 

[Melrose Munch]

I don't know why some people like you keep repeating this when its absolutely false if you care anything at all about facts and statistics.

Its factually true that NHL players get into very little trouble with the law compared to athletes from other sports especially like those from the NFL. Much of the issues with bad behavior from hockey players comes from the lower levels and this needs to be addressed, but this is the case for many sports where teens/young adults get into trouble for minor/major incidents.

So if you're going to criticise hockey and hockey culture at least come up with some facts rather than making a sweeping judgement of the entire sport and everyone involved for the actions of a relative few. If you're going to do that then do the same for the NBA, NFL, FIFA etc. who are all doing far worse and have far more problems than hockey does.

This is not just bad behaviour, it's criminal. But glad you recognized that the issue is minor hockey.

‘Hockey culture’ is a euphemism.

For what? When I talk about hockey culture, I'm talking about hockey players who engage in bad behaviour. What are you talking about? Say it.

Hanging by a thin thread by WHOM?

I'm open and honest. Who has me by a thread?

I'm just asking if some of you are ready to see the underbelly of Canadian hockey fans. I always take screen shots to back up what I say...if the mods will allow it...I'd love to share some of comments social media. Document, document, document. Learned a long time ago. The internet is forever.

You wanna be THAT guy? Own it. Don't go trying to hide after calling EM a "sl*t" and post a TRAIN gif. If it was a one off or 2 off? We are talking HUNDREDS of misogynistic posts. Who is ready for the truth?

Then try to tell me hockey culture doesn't have a problem.

He's backing you up, it's sarcasm lol. He supports your viewpoint. I know there are a lot of crazy people but @Nut Upstrom ain't one of them.

 

[T REX]

It's not like we don't know, lol
Sport culture, music culture, Hollywood culture is all the same.
You're attributing a dark aspect of power dynamics to just hockey when it's there in everything.
By power dynamics, I am talking about social power, groupies are not there for Post Malone's physique. Fame, money etc is a huge draw.

We know it (an extreme type of misogynism in those cultures) exists but are able to manage our outrage to things that directly affect our lives.
Not to be callous but I don't know a single person who even knows any of the people involved, so it really doesn't affect my life enough to warrant me to be constantly outraged.

Gonna disagree in principal...and there are a ton of posts backing up what I'm saying. Hockey is no better and just as disgusting as the NBA and NFL. But you can search this thread about how hockey is pure and so much better than other sports leagues.

Care to comment on the Junior Hockey Bible website?

The second you throw out "groupies" or "puck bunnies" you are attempting to absolve these piece of garbage. Can you be anymore transparent?

Again...MODS...will you allow me to share samples of what is by far the overwhelming majority of posts - victim blaming. If not? How about LINKS?

Proof is in the pudding.

 

[T REX]

This is not just bad behaviour, it's criminal. But glad you recognized that the issue is minor hockey.

For what? When I talk about hockey culture, I'm talking about hockey players who engage in bad behaviour. What are you talking about? Say it.


He's backing you up, it's sarcasm lol. He supports your viewpoint. I know there are a lot of crazy people but @Nut Upstrom ain't one of them.

If so...I apologize to @Nut Upstrom

Been attacked over and over on here and on social media.

I will show you the mirror

 

[TheSmokingMan]

False accusations are less than .5% of all sexual assualts.

Do you have a source for this number and how it was derived? I feel like without proper context, this is a statistic that could infer the wrong conclusions.

 

[12ozPapa]

It’s not just hockey culture, it’s men’s culture. Sooner people realize that, the better.

 

[Il Stugotz]

Hockey culture is better than non-hockey culture.

What about agriculture? I bet you didn’t think about that

 

[AnInjuredJasonZucker]

Why are so many people acting like babies over hockey culture being called out. The governing body in Canada literally has a fund for covering up abuses by their membership. A basic understanding of organizational behaviour makes it clear that this is a reinforced part of the culture.

There are positive aspects of the culture, but if you list those off and then add "And rape is tolerated" at the end, then yes, you need to tear the whole thing down and re-build it without whole rape-acceptance part.

It’s not just hockey culture, it’s men’s culture. Sooner people realize that, the better.

You're not wrong at all, but I think breaking it down provides a manageable goal which, if corrected, can influence the larger issue.

 

[T REX]

Do you have a source for this number and how it was derived? I feel like without proper context, this is a statistic that could infer the wrong conclusions.

She is a well respected sociologist. I posted the same earlier in this thread.

"How common are false allegations of rape or sexual assault?

One commonly cited figure holds that 5 percent of rape allegations are found to be false, but that figure paints a very incomplete picture, says Belknap. Typically, this figure comes from studies done on college students, an estimated 95 percent of whom do not report their assaults to police. Overall, an estimated 8 to 10 percent of women are thought to report their rapes to the police, which means that — at the very highest — we can infer that 90 percent of rapes go unreported, says Belknap. Obviously, only those rapes that are reported in the first place can be considered falsely reported, so that 5 percent figure only applies to 10 percent (at most) of rapes that occur. This puts the actual false allegation figure closer to 0.5 percent.

Of course, these figures are estimates, and Belknap doesn’t doubt they’re imperfect — we can’t count what isn’t being counted. But her research suggests that, if anything, we underestimate the number of rapes that go unreported."

After all the BS I have received on here...whether you agree or disagree...I do not GAF. Tired of the "neanderthal" attitudes and victim blaming.

If you wish to continue any discussion...please DM me. Thanks.

EDIT: Quick perusal...better we go our separate ways. Thanks but no thanks.

 

[TheSmokingMan]

She is a well respected sociologist. I posted the same earlier in this thread.

"How common are false allegations of rape or sexual assault?

One commonly cited figure holds that 5 percent of rape allegations are found to be false, but that figure paints a very incomplete picture, says Belknap. Typically, this figure comes from studies done on college students, an estimated 95 percent of whom do not report their assaults to police. Overall, an estimated 8 to 10 percent of women are thought to report their rapes to the police, which means that — at the very highest — we can infer that 90 percent of rapes go unreported, says Belknap. Obviously, only those rapes that are reported in the first place can be considered falsely reported, so that 5 percent figure only applies to 10 percent (at most) of rapes that occur. This puts the actual false allegation figure closer to 0.5 percent.

Of course, these figures are estimates, and Belknap doesn’t doubt they’re imperfect — we can’t count what isn’t being counted. But her research suggests that, if anything, we underestimate the number of rapes that go unreported."

After all the BS I have received on here...whether you agree or disagree...I do not GAF. Tired of the "neanderthal" attitudes and victim blaming.

If you wish to continue any discussion...please DM me. Thanks.

EDIT: Quick perusal...better we go our separate ways. Thanks but no thanks.

Thank you for the source. I can agree with the basic premise that sexual assault is under reported and I would agree that false accusations make up a minority of legal cases. So I agree in principle to what she is saying. What I don't agree with is the way she is using unreported accusations to minimize the actual number of false accusations. It's fuzzy math at best, and seems to be based on statistics from dated studies. It's a reminder that we have to validate statistics before trusting them at face value.

It sets a bad precedent to automatically disregard the possibility that the accuser may not be truthful, no matter if it's intentional or unintentional. Even though things look pretty bad based on the information we have so far, these guys still deserve their day in court and a chance to tell their side of the story. Holding this view is not the same as victim blaming.

What I really think makes this case interesting is the systemic forces that enabled it to happen. I hope we can see the full extent of the HC cover ups and how these players came to think this was all ok. It may be able to bring some meaningful change.

 

[PunchImlach is Alive]

Thank you for the source. I can agree with the basic premise that sexual assault is under reported and I would agree that false accusations make up a minority of legal cases. So I agree in principle to what she is saying. What I don't agree with is the way she is using unreported accusations to minimize the actual number of false accusations. It's fuzzy math at best, and seems to be based on statistics from dated studies. It's a reminder that we have to validate statistics before trusting them at face value.

It sets a bad precedent to automatically disregard the possibility that the accuser may not be truthful, no matter if it's intentional or unintentional. Even though things look pretty bad based on the information we have so far, these guys still deserve their day in court and a chance to tell their side of the story. Holding this view is not the same as victim blaming.

What I really think makes this case interesting is the systemic forces that enabled it to happen. I hope we can see the full extent of the HC cover ups and how these players came to think this was all ok. It may be able to bring some meaningful change.

I think it's pretty important to give context to what "false" actually means in those studies. What qualifies as "false" is typically not an allegation that even makes it to court. Depending on the reporting agency, they may have different qualifiers for that. It may be lack of evidence to prosecute, delayed reporting, victim doesn't want to cooperate, or the victim's stories don't match up. All of those could qualify as "false" depending on the agency. At best, parsing that out further would be an extremely low percentage. It doesn't make a ton of sense to go through all of this unless it's serious.

When it gets to court, it get murkier. It doesn't prove the victim was lying or that the allegation was false if the players are found innocent. It simply means there wasn't enough evidence to convict. It wouldn't be brought before a court if the prosecutor didn't feel there was enough evidence to do so. Given there was already a civil case settled, they would be inclined to find the allegations to be credible. Now it's a matter of figuring out if there's enough evidence to convict. Everyone deserves their day in court but, at this point, the court of public opinion has every right to be suspect of a defense that hangs on the players being too naive to know what consent is. It's not a matter of the allegations being truthful or not. Its credibility is what got us here in the first place.

 

[hfman]

innocent until proven guilty

 

[catnip]

Lots of innocent rapists walking among us.

 

[Chips]

What’s the point of acquittals, if the individual is going to be punished regardless?

Not going to prison is the point.


If you don’t want to be judged in the casual sense, don’t put yourself in a position or do something people would probably judge you for.


If we at least accept that there was a gang bang, whether or not it should have been obvious to the boys it was consensual, that and the context it happened in is sketchy as f*** lol.


Ultimately it’s pretty damn difficult to prove sexual assault especially with a great lawyer experienced in mind f***ing a jury, as a lot of it will come down to he said she said. I’m generally fine leaning towards giving the accusers the benefit of the doubt.

At the very least the first person she slept with I’d guess is at most risk. Unless there’s text messages where they all explicitly acknowledge they didn’t have consent, I could see some excited douches coming in and not even questioning if the first guy got consent to invite them in.

But even with the first guy it can come down to he said she said in these cases which sucks for victims as a poster pointed out the system is designed to accidentally let guilty go to spare innocents jail time.


If you’re a guy and you gang bang a stranger, and she’d been drinking on top of that, that’s sketchy as hell and you’re inviting a situation where even hypothetically if she sobers up mid way through and changes her mind, being surrounded by much larger guys between her and the door would be scary as f***. It’s just morally questionable and stupid regardless.


If they get judged they get judged.

 

[KingJoffrey]

There is countless of false rape accusations each year. Athletes are often victims of this behavior, because fame and money.

Studies say that 8-10% of rape accusations turn to be false. I don't have evidence that athletes have highter % of false accusations, but it is easy to assume this.

Evander Kane, Jake Virtanen, Matt Araiza and countless others are victims of trully heinous crimes.

 

[Edgelord]

Gonna disagree in principal...and there are a ton of posts backing up what I'm saying. Hockey is no better and just as disgusting as the NBA and NFL. But you can search this thread about how hockey is pure and so much better than other sports leagues.

Care to comment on the Junior Hockey Bible website?

The second you throw out "groupies" or "puck bunnies" you are attempting to absolve these piece of garbage. Can you be anymore transparent?

Again...MODS...will you allow me to share samples of what is by far the overwhelming majority of posts - victim blaming. If not? How about LINKS?

Proof is in the pudding.

Mentioning groupies, puck bunnies etc isn't victim-blaming IMO. I'm not saying she deserved any of what happened.
I'm pointing out that in my pragmatic mind, I see it as a much deeper issue than just hockey culture related.

 

[Lshap]

Gonna disagree in principal...and there are a ton of posts backing up what I'm saying. Hockey is no better and just as disgusting as the NBA and NFL. But you can search this thread about how hockey is pure and so much better than other sports leagues.

Care to comment on the Junior Hockey Bible website?

The second you throw out "groupies" or "puck bunnies" you are attempting to absolve these piece of garbage. Can you be anymore transparent?

Again...MODS...will you allow me to share samples of what is by far the overwhelming majority of posts - victim blaming. If not? How about LINKS?

Proof is in the pudding.

Can't speak for all mods, but I don't want to see those screenshots in this thread. I trust you that they're disgusting, but the last thing we need is to fly off-topic by dissecting the psychology behind shit-posting on the internet.

 

[Icelevel]

It’s not just hockey culture, it’s men’s culture. Sooner people realize that, the better.

And it might have some natural animal behaviour mixed in there too. Making things a little more complicated. If that would have any relevance. Which I’m not sure of.

 

[Lshap]

Mentioning groupies, puck bunnies etc isn't victim-blaming IMO. I'm not saying she deserved any of what happened.
I'm pointing out that in my pragmatic mind, I see it as a much deeper issue than just hockey culture related.

Agreed. I think someone nailed it a page or two ago - some people are simply disconnected from the feelings of others. It's not about hockey or money, it's our internal wiring. Everyone in our society is taught the same social rules, yet a small minority ignore them and follow their darker urges in certain circumstances.

 

[T REX]

Agreed. I think someone nailed it a page or two ago - some people are simply disconnected from the feelings of others. It's not about hockey or money, it's our internal wiring. Everyone in our society is taught the same social rules, yet a small minority ignore them and follow their darker urges in certain circumstances.

Mentioning groupies, puck bunnies etc isn't victim-blaming IMO. I'm not saying she deserved any of what happened.
I'm pointing out that in my pragmatic mind, I see it as a much deeper issue than just hockey culture related.

Will either of you PLEASE comment on the JUNIOR HOCKEY BIBLE WEBSITE? Could it be possible not only was this behavior tolerated but encouraged?