Five members from Canada’s 2018 world junior team (Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote and Formenton) told to surrender to police, facing sexual assault charges

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Rich Nixon

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I don't think Bettman addressed it, but what about the possibility that one or more players are found not guilty at their trial and that result contradicts the internal NHL investigation's findings? Remember, if these are jury trials anything can happen.

There's other possible scenarios along the same lines of course, but if the NHL intends to release their report after the trial(s) are over and that may involve (further) discipline, this could be problematic. Can/will the NHL suspend a player even if he's found not guilty? The opposite?

My guess is this.

These players will likely be unable to leave Canada. Meaning they won't be playing in any sort of European leagues in the meantime.

By the time this has been resolved in court, we're likely well-past the 25-26 season and maybe even the 26-27 season.

So you're looking at 29-30 year old men, all but 1 of whom were fringe players, who will not have played professional hockey of any type in nearly 4 years' time.

Even without the stink of having been charged and tried for a serious crime, there's very little reason to believe anyone's fitness and hockey abilities will survive that much time away from high-level competition. So no one will want them. That's the calculus. They'll be able to release their report, it'll say whatever it says, and in the extremely tiny chance a team wants to sign one of the players, they'll just make up some punishment that satisfies no one. As they do.

But no one will want them from a hockey perspective, and it won't matter.
 

Frank Drebin

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If a woman goes 'Who's this?' without directly asking you to leave, are you saying that this is consent to be there?

There's a million ways in which a woman (while being assaulted) wouldn't have the ability/opportunity (let alone the fear) of saying 'leave' that would not remotely amount to consent.
I'm really not in the mood to go over all of these hypotheticals of me gaining legal consent to be in the room when walking into a gangbang.

Bottom line here is player 6 (pizza guy) didn't violate the victim, based on the knowledge that we have right now.
 

Oak

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At the end of the day, it's privilege. Jocks, rich kids, kids with connections...anyone that has any kind of golden ticket gets to play by a different set of rules in the amateur sporting and academic world. And it needs to change.

In my opinion, hockey is hit with a double whammy simply because it has become a sport for the upper economic classes over the last two decades, and how iconic the game is regarded in Canada (especially in smaller junior hockey towns across the country).
I understand your privilege theory but when you realize a good percentage of D1 college football teams are minorities on full rides this kind of puts cracks in that theory. "Gang bangs" are just as prevalent in ghetto rap culture where a lot of these kids come from as they are in all white fratboy circles who come from big money families. Unless you are referring to kids like this as privileged bc they have full rides due to superior athletic abilities.

Yes there are a LOT of rich and privileged white kids on junior teams and in hockey in general, but there are still the poor "farm boys" who are good at the game, not as much there once were but they're still there. Once you enter the circle its either join the culture to fit in or get excluded. Also a lot more hazing and bullying of the young guys than in d1 so it becomes even harder not to follow the pack. If I remember correctly McLeod comes from a dirt poor upbringing with his mother having to work multiple jobs just to get him through youth.

It's not exclusive to privilege. It's really just alpha male do whatever you want culture. A lot of these towns where junior hockey teams play there is literally nothing to do but go to the bar for fun. The juniors players are movie stars even more so than d1 circles in America where there is a lot more to do on a college campus than just go get wasted at a party and try to hook up with a football star.

None of what I said are excuses for the action, but it really is a much bigger problem that can't be easily fixed until it comes from the top. I mean midget players in the USA are still being scolded and taught to not use racist or homophopic slurs but a lot of the coaches/refs dont really care because they are bigots in one form or another themselves so it continues. A recent top US team had to be reported by their coach for using the N word against a team mate but it went no farther than that.

Literally examples have to be made every year all over the hockey world in multiple forms for things to really start to stick. Human nature causes people to forget easily and always think it wont happen to me.
 

Spawn

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My guess is this.

These players will likely be unable to leave Canada. Meaning they won't be playing in any sort of European leagues in the meantime.

By the time this has been resolved in court, we're likely well-past the 25-26 season and maybe even the 26-27 season.

So you're looking at 29-30 year old men, all but 1 of whom were fringe players, who will not have played professional hockey of any type in nearly 4 years' time.

Even without the stink of having been charged and tried for a serious crime, there's very little reason to believe anyone's fitness and hockey abilities will survive that much time away from high-level competition. So no one will want them. That's the calculus. They'll be able to release their report, it'll say whatever it says, and in the extremely tiny chance a team wants to sign one of the players, they'll just make up some punishment that satisfies no one. As they do.

But no one will want them from a hockey perspective, and it won't.

Just for the sake of comparison, Jake Virtanen was charged with sexual assault in January 2022 and the trial and verdict was over by the end of July of the same year.

Obviously every case is going to be different and we’re looking at BC vs Ontario but your timeline seems off.
 

Ezekial

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I feel you owe me an explanation of the bold.
I think its unfair because I really try to judge people based on the content of their character and nothing else.
First, please know I owe you nothing.
I'm not really going to get into it but people who say things like "people are people" and "I don't see color" are usually the biggest hypocrites about it. Also I know you treat people differently because you're human and to act like you don't is just ridiculous.

I treat my 6 year old niece differently than I treat my brother. I treat my coworkers differently than I treat my friends - hell I treat my coworkers differently based on my expiriences with each of them. I treat people I like and agree with differently than I don't like and disagree with. I treat a woman I am attracted to and want to pursue differently than I treat my sister in law. I empathize with a homeless person with mental illness differently than I empathize with a rich person having a bad day.
 

Edgelord

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First, please know I owe you nothing.
I'm not really going to get into it but people who say things like "people are people" and "I don't see color" are usually the biggest hypocrites about it. Also I know you treat people differently because you're human and to act like you don't is just ridiculous.

I treat my 6 year old niece differently than I treat my brother. I treat my coworkers differently than I treat my friends - hell I treat my coworkers differently based on my expiriences with each of them. I treat people I like and agree with differently than I don't like and disagree with. I treat a woman I am attracted to and want to pursue differently than I treat my sister in law. I empathize with a homeless person with mental illness differently than I empathize with a rich person having a bad day.
ahh KK fair enough. We were looking at it differently.
Yes in that sense we all treat people differently, if its just us with proper ladies or children vs us with a few of our closest friends we are going to act differently.
But in those circles, race, sexuality etc means nothing to me.
 

OG Eberle

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When evaluating whether or not you want to have a relationship with a person, you should not be using the criminal standard.

Unfortunately, if "common sense" and "care for another human at an ethical level" are not part of your genetics, it seems a few in here might actually be better off resorting to the "criminal standard" to help measure their actions within their relationships
 

Edgelord

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lol hockey culture is vile
you don't find it a little self-flagellating to say that while being on a hockey forum that in itself is a part of hockey culture?
Not that I think hockey culture is perfect, but to demonize all of it while we are all a part of it seems off to me.
 
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Theodore450

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you don't find it a little self-flagellating to say that while being on a hockey forum that in itself is a part of hockey culture?
Not that I think hockey culture is perfect, but to demonize all of it while we are all a part of it seems off to me.
I understand your point. But the core hockey culture that a lot of today’s players fall into is vile.

I’ve played hockey for years, seen people I know go through it, heard the stories and seen first hand the culture.
Hockey culture has been morphed and is falling suit into a dickhead mentality that is similar to frats. It’s become cultish and the only thing most players can do is follow suit and not complain.
When i say hockey culture is vile.
I’m talking about the actual hockey culture of boys playing hockey with the goal of making that their career. Hockey culture is their personal workplace culture.

For example Lawyer culture wouldn’t fall on the suspects or defendants.

Hockey culture is the hockey players.
And it’s become a nelk like douch sport with privileged boys at the top maintaining the status quo.
 

Rich Nixon

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Just for the sake of comparison, Jake Virtanen was charged with sexual assault in January 2022 and the trial and verdict was over by the end of July of the same year.

Obviously every case is going to be different and we’re looking at BC vs Ontario but your timeline seems off.

It has already been reported that a trial is unlikely to begin before 2026.
 

Edgelord

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I understand your point. But the core hockey culture that a lot of today’s players fall into is vile.

I’ve played hockey for years, seen people I know go through it, heard the stories and seen first hand the culture.
Hockey culture has been morphed and is falling suit into a dickhead mentality that is similar to frats. It’s become cultish and the only thing most players can do is follow suit and not complain.
When i say hockey culture is vile.
I’m talking about the actual hockey culture of boys playing hockey with the goal of making that their career. Hockey culture is their personal workplace culture.

For example Lawyer culture wouldn’t fall on the suspects or defendants.

Hockey culture is the hockey players.
And it’s become a nelk like douch sport with privileged boys at the top maintaining the status quo.
ok, in that aspect, I agree 100%. The frat boy mentality is a negative.
How do we fix it?
The stone cold reality is these kids are idolized at a young age. That presents a form of social power and power always corrupts.
 
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BonHoonLayneCornell

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The impression I get is that a lot of hockey players get with girls they consider gross but do not see the irony
I don't think they even see a human being. It's sociopathic behavior where there's a detachment from empathy. It is an object to them to be conquered and then ridiculed. We've all seen this line of thinking first hand from many men, surely, I know I have, and their opinion of the women they view as "sluts" or whatever else is so incredibly low it's downright disturbing.
 

T REX

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I understand that position, yes. It's one I would deeply disagree with. I do not want to live in a society of vigilante justice.
So, I have to think OJ isn't a murderer? Sorry, but you have no right to tell me how to think. None. Zero. Nada. Just like I think Pizza boy may not have committed a crime but morally he is a POS. See how easy that is?
 

OG Eberle

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Hockey culture is better than non-hockey culture.

It's not really hard to quantify. Professional hockey players face criminal charges at a lower rate than the general population. I haven't seen the numbers but I guarantee it's true. Unfortunately there is an element of society that is hell bent on destroying anything and anyone that they see as as better than themselves.

Completely untrue....this only supports my point.

Not sure if you are joking or not. I've been in "hockey culture" my whole life and as abhorrent as this situation is, it is NOT a representative of hockey culture. Quite the opposite.

Hot take: you might be part of the problem
 

Theodore450

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ok, in that aspect, I agree 100%. The frat boy mentality is a negative.
How do we fix it?
The stone cold reality is these kids are idolized at a young age. That presents a form of social power and power always corrupts.
It’s a tough fix. But events like this should force some change. The only way true change happens is if a return to empathy and respect becomes valued.

The target would need to be at adolescence

Not sure if you are joking or not. I've been in "hockey culture" my whole life and as abhorrent as this situation is, it is NOT a representative of hockey culture. Quite the opposite.
This is not universal. A person like bedard is proof of that. I’m just observing what I’ve seen a majority to be like.
 

Gregor Samsa

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I don't think they even see a human being. It's sociopathic behavior where there's a detachment from empathy. It is an object to them to be conquered and then ridiculed. We've all seen this line of thinking first hand from many men, surely, I know I have, and their opinion of the women they view as "sluts" or whatever else is so incredibly low it's downright disturbing.
Yeah. It is either a sex addiction type of thing (ie. getting validation through others wanting you), or a cultural type of thing. I’d bet the latter in this case. Most men I know, myself included, won’t get with someone they consider gross just to get with them. There is definitely a dehumanizing aspect and I think it’s unfair to paint all men as people who would act like that. I also wouldn’t be surprised if peer pressure plays a role in this type of “team building activity” and culture. It will never be said but I wonder if any of the four invited players felt that they had to take part, not that that absolves them. That whole hockey Bible has a very rapey feel
 

BonHoonLayneCornell

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Yeah. It is either a sex addiction type of thing (ie. getting validation through others wanting you), or a cultural type of thing. I’d bet the latter in this case. Most men I know, myself included, won’t get with someone they consider gross just to get with them. There is definitely a dehumanizing aspect and I think it’s unfair to paint all men as people who would act like that. I also wouldn’t be surprised if peer pressure plays a role in this type of “team building activity” and culture. It will never be said but I wonder if any of the four invited players felt that they had to take part, not that that absolves them. That whole hockey Bible has a very rapey feel
Yes, I agree with a lot of this. Definitely a culture thing in this case imo. Peer pressure is a very real thing, especially for under developed minds in hot social environments.

I agree. That bible is sick. Disgusting. Very rapey in general.
 

PaulD

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Yes, I agree with a lot of this. Definitely a culture thing in this case imo. Peer pressure is a very real thing, especially for under developed minds in hot social environments.

I agree. That bible is sick. Disgusting. Very rapey in general.
somebody cap this thread out at 200 would ya.
 

Jussi

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you don't find it a little self-flagellating to say that while being on a hockey forum that in itself is a part of hockey culture?
Not that I think hockey culture is perfect, but to demonize all of it while we are all a part of it seems off to me.
There's no sugarcoating in admitting that it has become vile. Not just in Canada. Here in Finland we've had a lot of bad press within the last year or so with one player convicted of rape (Severi Lahtinen), one accused of rape (Topi Rönni) plus the hockey federations blase attitude towards racism in juniors.
 
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