Five members from Canada’s 2018 world junior team (Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote and Formenton) told to surrender to police, facing sexual assault charges

[Number8]

It's not really "defense" of flames management, I just don't think what they did was that big of a deal.

Dube asked for a leave due to mental health and they treated it as such. If it was 3 months before the news vs 3 days I don't see it being an issue at all.

I don't really care as far as the Flames go. In all of this, it's the least egregious thing out there. That honor rests with the players, Hockey Canada, London Police, etc.

I'm just amazed at the ham handed approach Calgary took. It's gonna cost them, I believe. Just so amateurish.

If you go back and look at all the comments (HF, Twitter, etc, etc) supporting Dubes -- 'good for him', 'so brave to address mental health, way to go', etc, etc

Now I'd imagine all those people feel stupid courtesy of Calgary. i.e. "I can't believe I felt sympathy and empathy for a guy who likes to train drunk girls". Not good. Not good at all.

 

[VivaLasVegas]

Hockey Canada most definitely has a role to play, but more importantly, the parents have a role to play in not raising little assholes who think they are going to the show and their shit doesn't stink.

Agree. If HC or any youth organization is really being expected to include in their curricula "Lesson Module 438: Don't Gangbang The Drunk Chick" then we have to wonder what sort of values that parents are instilling at home.

 

[Number8]

Dube requested a mental health leave and was seeking professional help for that, the Flames had to grant that leave and were transparent about it. Why Dube was asking for that leave is no ones business. The fact that 3 days later the police laid charges is not the Flames fault and nor did they lie about anything.

Didn't lie, no way.

I just think they were extraordinarily naïve and, apparently, extraordinarily not tuned in to what was going on. Neither is good.

 

[iCanada]

Absolutely. This defense of Flames management/pr is pretty funny. About the only funny thing in this sad mess.

If we'd been allowed to speculate here on HF there are a lot of people who would have "speculated" Dube's name. Before Calgary issued their mental health statement. It just wasn't that hard. And that's without an NHL team leadership's much better grip on inside chatter than your average HF'er.

Somebody with modestly firing brain cells in Calgary should have seen the potential connection and said "Hey guys, just to be safe, hold up on the mental health stuff. Just say personal reasons and leave it at that for now."

Yeah idk. You can't tell me the flames didn't know Dube was involved when Twitter and Reddit knew he was involved in 2022. Sure as shit Ottawa and the rest of the league knew that the hard noser 20 goal scorer that played defense first minutes was involved... Sure as shit Philadelphia knew Hart was involved and that's why they tried to trade him, but no one took him because they all knew he was involved. Yet somehow the flames didn't know? When the CEO of the flames son was on that 2018 WJC team and at said Gala?

You also can't tell me they didn't know he was likely going to get charged at some point - literally the London police said they were likely to file charges on those responsible which lead to the whole fiasco with Hockey Canada in 2022.


You'll also note that the flames didn't deny either of the above - they only categorically denied that they knew Dube had current pending charges.

 

[Yukon Joe]

It's definitely a pretty minor sin compared to this whole story, but I'm surprised to see people defending the Flames PR. It seemed so obvious at the time this was likely connected to the London sexual assault innocent. It would have been so easy for the Flames to say "Dube is on leave from the team - we will offer no further comment".

 

[Frank Drebin]

Agree. If HC or any youth organization is really being expected to include in their curricula "Lesson Module 438: Don't Gangbang The Drunk Chick" then we have to wonder what sort of values that parents are instilling at home.

Its not about giving lessons on not gang banging the drunk chick.

Its about not gang banging the drunk chick in front of an impressionable 16 year old. It sounds truly bizarre, but these kids learned this stuff from somewhere. And they learned that it was ok to do in the process.

 

[Da McBomb]

There was lots of talk that the whole investigation was coming to an end soon. The whole hockey world knew that Dube was a one of the 8 players who gave very vague statements in the beginning.. so the Flames should have known better than to release their statement and linking Dube's absence to mental illness. Those of you defendng the Flames in this case should understand why so many people are angry with the Flames as well as Dube. Mental illness awareness has actually come a long way in the last few years and by linking this whole case with mental illness.. it just gives it a really bad name and may even set back the progress that has been made the last several years.

Even if Dube mentioned to the Flames that he was suffering from mental illness or lying about it, there is no real reason for the Flames to include this in their statement knowing VERY WELL that Dube was linked to this whole scandal. The Flames should have just kept it very simple like the other teams and not even mention 'mental illness' in their statement. (And if the Flames were to use 'mental illness' as a reason for Dube's leave, then they should have done their due dilligence to make sure it was due to other reasons not related to this rape case). I mean.. some people were feeling bad for Dube and giving him sympathy and well wishes when the Flames first released that statement... like how twisted is that??

 

[iCanada]

It's definitely a pretty minor sin compared to this whole story, but I'm surprised to see people defending the Flames PR. It seemed so obvious at the time this was likely connected to the London sexual assault innocent. It would have been so easy for the Flames to say "Dube is on leave from the team - we will offer no further comment".

It was certainly obvious enough that a bunch of random people here on HF put it together, and mods here had to delete basically the entire thread due to speculation...

But yeah, the Flames apparently didn't know.

 

[Canovin]

Dube might be the guy who said he stumbled into the scene and stayed there for 10mins

 

[HolyGhost]

For those saying the Flames knew nothing? For nearly 2 years we have in different ways or form talking about what was going on. It was in the news prior to Dube that something was going on. It is not like this came out of the blue. What is going on is something for over a year knew was coming. Yet when one of the players steps away? The media was reporting something was going on. They did not say arrests were about happen but developments had happened. Clearly the players all knew. We know every team knew the name of at least one player and this site guessed two names about a year ago--the big one being Carter Hart and McLeod was suggested by a quite a few.

NHL teams clearly knew there was something brewing with what this JR team may have gotten up to and knew something was coming down. Every team that had/has one of the players in the organization, knew that a "conversation" going to be had at some point in time. It was not like this story just snuck up on us on the 24th when this thread was created, There has been a lot of talk about players on that team and when one announces he is taking a leave, while in the news cycle there has been development in the investigation?

My question is how did no many people on this site had his name a year ago and the flames knew nothing

 

[TooManyHumans]

What options were open to teams prior to these guys being charged with anything? I can't imagine teams can just cut guys because of allegations without charges.

 

[Number8]

Yeah idk. You can't tell me the flames didn't know Dube was involved when Twitter and Reddit knew he was involved in 2022. Sure as shit Ottawa and the rest of the league knew that the hard noser 20 goal scorer that played defense first minutes was involved... Sure as shit Philadelphia knew Hart was involved and that's why they tried to trade him, but no one took him because they all knew he was involved. Yet somehow the flames didn't know? When the CEO of the flames son was on that 2018 WJC team and at said Gala?

You also can't tell me they didn't know he was likely going to get charged at some point - literally the London police said they were likely to file charges on those responsible which lead to the whole fiasco with Hockey Canada in 2022.


You'll also note that the flames didn't deny either of the above - they only categorically denied that they knew Dube had current pending charges.

Even more reason for the Flames lawyers and pr people to have thought this through more that it appears they did.

Gary Bettman should be talking to said CEO and asking him what he knew and when.

I say that because the League is an amalgamation of all parts - all teams. So far the NHL has stayed fairly well out of this but in my mind there are a few things that Bettman should be sweating:

1) What does the NHL's investigation into this sordid situation look like? Is it comprehensive and has the NHL acted honorably (and certainly legally) given the inside information they know?

2) Have their teams acted honorably. I.e. Was Philadelphia transparent when trying to trade Carter Hart or where they trying to pull a fast one on their NHL brethren? Did Calgary make it look like the Flames (and by extension the League) were covering or acting as apologists for Dube?

3) If the League effectively blackballed Formenton (and it appears the teams unofficially did) what did they know when, and why not do the same with others?

4) What ex NHL names, if any, will come out of that disgusting 2003 gang sex situation involving another WJ team -- many of whom went on to have long and high profile careers in the NHL?

I have no idea the answers to these questions and it may be nothing for NHL to worry about. However, I'd be thinking about it. And unlike Scott Smith, Gary Bettman is not dumb.

 

[SFKingshomer]

We live in a society full of porn addicted people and it's all by design. Those in charge love this sort of thing. The world is a stage...

 

[Frank Drebin]

For those saying the Flames knew nothing? For nearly 2 years we have in different ways or form talking about what was going on. It was in the news prior to Dube that something was going on. It is not like this came out of the blue. What is going on is something for over a year knew was coming. Yet when one of the players steps away? The media was reporting something was going on. They did not say arrests were about happen but developments had happened. Clearly the players all knew. We know every team knew the name of at least one player and this site guessed two names about a year ago--the big one being Carter Hart and McLeod was suggested by a quite a few.

NHL teams clearly knew there was something brewing with what this JR team may have gotten up to and knew something was coming down. Every team that had/has one of the players in the organization, knew that a "conversation" going to be had at some point in time. It was not like this story just snuck up on us on the 24th when this thread was created, There has been a lot of talk about players on that team and when one announces he is taking a leave, while in the news cycle there has been development in the investigation?

My question is how did no many people on this site had his name a year ago and the flames knew nothing

Of course the Flames knew. They just decided to treat this absence due to mental health the same way as any other mental health absence. They weren't aware of the exact date of the impending police summons and decided not to read between the lines and show the player respect. Looks bad in hindsight but really not that egregious.

 

[KeyserSoze81]

What options were open to teams prior to these guys being charged with anything? I can't imagine teams can just cut guys because of allegations without charges.

On leave with pay until charges are pressed.

Per ESPN via MSN:

"However, league sources said the players' statuses with their respective teams will likely change if charges are pressed -- they could face suspension, by their teams or by the NHL, see their contracts terminated, or end up on a commissioner's exempt list."

 

[metalan2]

Let me ask you this question or consider this. Would the NHLPA be willing to put their names to such a defense, I would imagine any termination of contracts from the teams, without a guilty result. Would incurr some legal action to get paid. Would the NHLPA, with a straight face, try to protect these players.

I honestly don't know the answer. As they say innocent until proven guilty. I'm not saying I think they are innocent by the way. But it could be a powder Keg both the NHL and NHLPA want to avoid. Contracts terminated with full pay? maybe,

What is funny is, none of these players have contracts behind this year besides Dube. I actually think teams were prepared for this. They'll get paid this year, but that's it for them more than likely, even if it's a favorable outcome.

 

[Frank Drebin]

I just think its hilarious that everyone is upset because of their misdirected thoughts and prayers.

 

[Cap'n Flavour]

The Flames' response is absolutely embarrassing and pathetic. The idea that they had no idea any of this was coming is laughable. The very least the Flames could have done is not bring up mental health and just say Dube was granted leave. Some of the comments by players including Rasmus Andersson are an utter disgrace:

“It sucks to see first Oliver and now Dillon. You’ve got to try and support them any way you can,” Andersson said during a scrum this morning. “I think if you’re struggling on the ice or off the ice, I think it’s a good wakeup call for a lot of Twitter monsters out there too, that we’re humans too. Maybe think before you write. That comes with being a professional athlete, but it’s never easy seeing someone struggle and then reading about it too. It sucks.”

I mean really, trying to conflate Dube and Kyington's situations and criticisms thereof? Don't tell me actual NHL players were completely surprised by this, and if they somehow managed to live under a rock and see and hear no evil they should have thought before they spoke up.

 

[iCanada]

What options were open to teams prior to these guys being charged with anything? I can't imagine teams can just cut guys because of allegations without charges.

Actually all of these guys are basically just cut from cap.

Per cap friendly;

All 4 players were granted immediate Non-Roster status.The rules for a non-roster player are in part:

16.12 Non-Roster Player.

(a) Upon approval of the Commissioner, a Player who is unavailable to play due to reasons other than injury, illness or disability (e.g., birth of a child, attending a funeral) will be designated a Non-Roster Player ...

This is also why it's damning that Dube was removed from the flames roster and stats page immediately - it means it's likely the commissioner had already granted the flames the ability to remove him from their roster with no cap implications.

If the flames didn't know - why would they seek him to be granted non-roster status instead of IR or LTIR like they did with Kylington?

 

[GeeoffBrown]

I'm really disappointed in Dillon if he was involved in this and I hope that if this is the case, he never plays another game for the Flames.

I do think with the criticism the NHL took over the way they handled the Blackhawks situation, it is possible that the NHL will use this opportunity to severely punish the Flames.

 

[Strangle]

Are employees doing criminal things while at employer events? Is there evidence that other employees are also doing criminal things or have done so, leading to a culture of accepted behavior within the organization? When the organization/employer is actively attempting to cover things up, that indicates an issue to address with that entity - there is a problem with standards and practices if they're covering up for their employees misdeeds.

I mean, yes they are. All around in every industry.

 

[Bumblebee Man]

The police didn't call the Flames to ask permission to charge him. A memo wasn't sent to them

Funny to see some people so disgusted with the Flames org when infact the truly disgusting behaviour is the people who are making a big deal of this and inserting themselves into like it was a direct slight on them and they are owed something

 

[93LEAFS]

What options were open to teams prior to these guys being charged with anything? I can't imagine teams can just cut guys because of allegations without charges.

The only responsibility they had was to pay them. They could have waived them if they wanted, they'd just owe them there NHL salaries if they went unclaimed and were in the AHL.

 

[Mr Zappalanche]

It is absolutely hilarious that some people here are trying to blame the whole goddamn sport of hockey for this incident.

 

[Yukon Joe]

What options were open to teams prior to these guys being charged with anything? I can't imagine teams can just cut guys because of allegations without charges.

Probably nothing. The only thing the Flames are being criticized for was the wording of their press release.