Five members from Canada’s 2018 world junior team (Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote and Formenton) told to surrender to police, facing sexual assault charges

[93LEAFS]

We're not talking about a traditional boss. How many times in your past did your "boss" facilitate trips with free drinks, hotel rooms, and golf tournaments as an 18 year old? And yes, some of these kids were minors. So is Team Canada not responsible for counseling under age kids not to drink at an event that they are providing an open bar? Or do they just get to say "hey I'm only their boss - up to them what they do"?

And while on the subject of facilitation. If Hockey Canada had a huge pool of money set aside to specifically settle sexual assault cases, a team of lawyers at hand for the same purpose, and had a clear history of other Juniors getting into sexual assault problems.... is it still cool for them to say, "hey I'm just your boss and you don't want me deep inside your business like that. You do you, brah!"

Come on man. If you are coaching and managing a bunch of juniors, responsibility comes with the package. If not then Team Canada should go away. Which for many, is a very appealing prospect right now.

None of the kids at this event were minors, and the only two who weren't of age to drink in Ontario were Robert Thomas and Formenton, but both were legally adults at the time. The entire team outside those 2 would be entering 3rd year University in Ontario, and the other 2 would be entering 2nd year.

I'd also add, look into how the USNTDP handled Reid Boucher. The guy had sex with his billet's 12 year old daughter, and all they did was move him to a different billet family. This would have been buried if the girl didn't later decide to press charges.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Is that what happened? Maybe I don’t know the whole story.

Did hockey Canada rent out a bar for 17 and 18 year olds and invite a bunch of young women over and provide everyone with free alcohol?

Because yes, in that case that would change things.

I’m being serious, now I don’t know if that’s what happened based on your response

I finished highschool overseas with a private school and a class of around 20 kids. We were chaperoned sometimes, and other times we weren’t.

We were brought up to not gang bang anyone together while we weren’t though.

But we did go out drinking a lot. Funny how that works

It was gala for gold medal teams, so men’s WJC, women’s team, and maybe U18’s I believe. It was an open bar I believe, definitely free wine bottles for each table.
HC had said no more open bars.

Likely drinking all day on golf course Prius’s well..

Not sure if the bar after the gala was rented out.

 

[T REX]

Within this case there is a discussion to be had about the repugnant hockey culture that Canada has bred in a lot of our youth.

A significant portion of the kids coming up now act like they are God’s gift to this earth more concerned about racking up their snap score than anything. Hell, it was well known that most of my hometowns WHL roster had another side piece in practically every city they play in. At least once a month someone’s girlfriend caught them on Tinder in the next town over. Most felt they were untouchable in school as well behaved like shit with minimal effort because they were for sure making the show.

Not one Canadian who has had an interaction with a Junior A player should be shocked.

Hard to believe that a sport that refers to female fans as puck-bunnies has a culture issue.

As a guy who grew up playing a lot of different sports, hockey included I can’t really think of one with a worse culture.

More reasons to nuke it.

The boys will be boys crowd is gonna be PO'd.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Absolutely. This defense of Flames management/pr is pretty funny. About the only funny thing in this sad mess.

If we'd been allowed to speculate here on HF there are a lot of people who would have "speculated" Dube's name. Before Calgary issued their mental health statement. It just wasn't that hard. And that's without an NHL team leadership's much better grip on inside chatter than your average HF'er.

Somebody with modestly firing brain cells in Calgary should have seen the potential connection and said "Hey guys, just to be safe, hold up on the mental health stuff. Just say personal reasons and leave it at that for now."

It's not really "defense" of flames management, I just don't think what they did was that big of a deal.

Dube asked for a leave due to mental health and they treated it as such. If it was 3 months before the news vs 3 days I don't see it being an issue at all.

 

[Zirakzigil]

We all knew most of the name before that march of shame was announced. IF we knew and most of the hockey world knew the names why didnt the flames. The only name I did not see coming as Foote. Carter Hart, the sens kid and Mcleod were the most mentioned names. WIth Dube being in the top ten of players names.

So no--I am not twisting shit. We were given a two weeks heads up and then players started taking a leave of absence. Dube was not the first player to take a leave of absence.

Dube requested a mental health leave and was seeking professional help for that, the Flames had to grant that leave and were transparent about it. Why Dube was asking for that leave is no ones business. The fact that 3 days later the police laid charges is not the Flames fault and nor did they lie about anything.

 

[Golden_Jet]

None of the kids at this event were minors, and the only two who weren't of age to drink in Ontario were Robert Thomas and Formenton, but both were legally adults at the time. The entire team outside those 2 would be entering 3rd year University in Ontario, and the other 2 would be entering 2nd year.

I'd also add, look into how the USNTDP handled Reid Boucher. The guy had sex with his billet's 12 year old daughter, and all they did was move him to a different billet family. This would have been buried if the girl didn't later decide to press charges.

Oh wow, wasn’t aware of the USNTDP case, obviously they tried to bury that one as well.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Events like this are always a good reminder of the gross individuals that still exist in this world.

 

[T REX]

Here's the thing. Hockey fans love to point out how worse other sports are but bring up their problems and they deflect. Do any of these sports have the management along with the corruption the way the NHL and hockey do? You know the answer to that. It's not just about the arrests.

Again, this is why is needs to be nuked. The highers up are enablers...they foster this environment. Hell, some exec was throwing jager bombs down her throat. Nuke it.

I'd say many D1 schools have been known to put their heads in the sand just as bad as Hockey Canada when it comes to their football programs. Just look at Penn St. or Baylor.

I'm not saying Hockey is better at handling these things.

That's just more whataboutism instead of dealing with your(not you per se) house. But what about Penn St or Baylor is NOT addressing the problem.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Within this case there is a discussion to be had about the repugnant hockey culture that Canada has bred in a lot of our youth.

A significant portion of the kids coming up now act like they are God’s gift to this earth more concerned about racking up their snap score than anything. Hell, it was well known that most of my hometowns WHL roster had another side piece in practically every city they play in. At least once a month someone’s girlfriend caught them on Tinder in the next town over. Most felt they were untouchable in school as well behaved like shit with minimal effort because they were for sure making the show.

Not one Canadian who has had an interaction with a Junior A player should be shocked.

Hard to believe that a sport that refers to female fans as puck-bunnies has a culture issue.

As a guy who grew up playing a lot of different sports, hockey included I can’t really think of one with a worse culture.

All good points.

The puck bunny culture is pretty gross too. Teach your daughters not to worship these ass holes.

 

[Strangle]

Are you aware that a 15 or 16 year old is not a legal adult, and whatever adults in his or her life during the years till they are 18 essentially serve as role models/parents?

When someone is from Bancroft and they are billeting in Brampton to play for the ice dogs, they still have communication with their parents

Do you think their parents just disappear or something? That their job is done? They’ve now abdicated parental responsibilities to the organization called hockey Canada?

That’s crazy

These kids aren’t overseas in China or North Korea.

 

[Number8]

Is that what happened? Maybe I don’t know the whole story.

Did hockey Canada rent out a bar for 17 and 18 year olds and invite a bunch of young women over and provide everyone with free alcohol?

Because yes, in that case that would change things.

I’m being serious, now I don’t know if that’s what happened based on your response

I finished highschool overseas with a private school and a class of around 20 kids. We were chaperoned sometimes, and other times we weren’t.

We were brought up to not gang bang anyone together while we weren’t though.

But we did go out drinking a lot. Funny how that works. The administration didn’t have to be our parents

Yes and no.

The golf tournament celebration (before the bar where they met the young lady) most certainly was reported as being an open bar. There are also widespread reports of a senior member from Nike Canada buying drinks for players at the bar later on AND buying and pouring jagermeister's down the throat of the young lady herself. No Nike Canada is not Hockey Canada, but let's not kid ourselves that this wasn't all a big old boys will be boys weekend.

I do agree that in most normal houses, the social norms would be to teach young boys not to be such assholes well before they turn 18 or 19. BUT, given the very clear history that Hockey Canada already had in terms of multiple sexual assault incidents -- including a filmed gang bang in 2003 -- the were negligent if they didn't put up some guardrails and develop a real program to teach these kids the pitfalls they could face with stupid decisions.

Instead Hockey Canada spent the time and resources that could have helped these kids avoid risk (even if they ignored the ethics of being a decent person) on slush funds of hush money specifically targeted to make sexual assault cases go away.

And ultimately in the end Hockey Canada did fail them. Guilty or not guilty, not one of these kids will ever see the NHL again. And even if some were 3/4 line tweeners, in the end it will cost them millions of dollars at minimum. Plus the ever awkward "hey didn't you play in NHL? What happened. Oh, yeah. Sorry, I forgot." conversations.

And yes, I laugh at that. As the father of a daughter, f*** these guys. Consent or not. Treat women with some respect. Just a little. A tiny tiny bit. Or, if you can't do that even, then at least a f*** lot more than the way they treated her.

 

[Frank Drebin]

When someone is from Bancroft and they are billeting in Brampton to play for the ice dogs, they still have communication with their parents

Do you think their parents just disappear or something?

They don't disappear. But their role is certainly reduced.

Carter Hart moved from Sherwood park, ab, to Everett, wa, before he turned 16 years old. That's a 13 hour drive. 1 hour phone calls per day don't replace living at home with your folks.

It's not really up for debate.

 

[Strangle]

Yes and no.

The golf tournament celebration (before the bar where they met the young lady) most certainly was reported as being an open bar. There are also widespread reports of a senior member from Nike Canada buying drinks for players at the bar later on AND buying and pouring jagermeister's down the throat of the young lady herself. No Nike Canada is not Hockey Canada, but let's not kid ourselves that this wasn't all a big old boys will be boys weekend.

I do agree that in most normal houses, the social norms would be to teach young boys not to be such assholes well before they turn 18 or 19. BUT, given the very clear history that Hockey Canada already had in terms of multiple sexual assault incidents -- including a filmed gang bang in 2003 -- the were negligent if they didn't put up some guardrails and develop a real program to teach these kids the pitfalls they could face with stupid decisions.

Instead Hockey Canada spent the time and resources that could have helped these kids avoid risk (even if they ignored the ethics of being a decent person) on slush funds of hush money specifically targeted to make sexual assault cases go away.

And ultimately in the end Hockey Canada did fail them. Guilty or not guilty, not one of these kids will ever see the NHL again. And even if some were 3/4 line tweeners, in the end it will cost them millions of dollars at minimum. Plus the ever awkward "hey didn't you play in NHL? What happened. Oh, yeah. Sorry, I forgot." conversations.

And yes, I laugh at that. As the father of a daughter, f*** these guys. Consent or not. Treat women with some respect. Just a little. A tiny tiny bit. Or, if you can't do that even, then at least a f*** lot more than the way they treated her.

I have 3 young daughters and no sons. I also feel very strongly about this

 

[waitin425]

There are some toxic traits that permeate through minor hockey in Canada. As I am sure there are in other sports. 9/10 from my experience coaching in minor hockey and just general observations, the parents are often the root cause of these problems.

Hockey Canada most definitely has a role to play, but more importantly, the parents have a role to play in not raising little assholes who think they are going to the show and their shit doesn't stink.

The entitlement heaped upon some (not all) kids at the higher levels especially, is but one of the contributing factors to what many observe as a toxic hockey culture in Canada.

 

[Yukon Joe]

I do think being able to strike jurors is a better system than the one that has been discussed earlier in this thread that now unless a potential juror volunteers that they don’t think they can be impartial they’ll be selected

So not sure whether a system with preemptory challenges is better or not.

Speaking as someone who has actually selected a jury before, the problem with pre-emptory challenges is you're not allowed to ask jurors a whole bunch of questions, so you're stuck making decisions on very superficial factors about how they look - are they young/old, man/woman, and yes skin colour.

 

[Strangle]

They don't disappear. But their role is certainly reduced.

Carter Hart moved from Sherwood park, ab, to Everett, wa, before he turned 16 years old. That's a 13 hour drive. 1 hour phone calls per day don't replace living at home with your folks.

It's not really up for debate.

Well yes, it kind of is.

Because if the expectation is that a bit of a train ride home is too far for a 15yo kid then you’re saying the issue is billeting itself.

But the facts are that parenting happens by the parents. Not by billet families, and not by a faceless organization.

Now don’t get me wrong, hockey Canada has a lot of blame in this. It’s just not in their inability to raise these kids, because that isn’t their responsibility and it isn’t the billets responsibility

You shouldn’t be 15 and not be able to be trusted to go out without your parents, those kids maybe shouldn’t be eligible in the first place.

But talent > everything else when it comes to sports. Kobe Bryant, murderers in the NFL, and who knows what goes on in the NCAA

 

[Frank Drebin]

Well yes, it kind of is.

Because if the expectation is that a bit of a train ride home is too far for a 15yo kid then you’re saying the issue is billeting itself.

But the facts are that parenting happens by the parents. Not by billet families, and not by a faceless organization.

Now don’t get me wrong, hockey Canada has a lot of blame in this. It’s just not in their inability to raise these kids, because that isn’t their responsibility and it isn’t the billets responsibility

You shouldn’t be 15 and not be able to be trusted to go out without your parents, those kids maybe shouldn’t be eligible in the first place.

But talent > everything else when it comes to sports. Kobe Bryant, murderers in the NFL, and who knows what goes on in the NCAA

agree to disagree. Moving on.

 

[Chainshot]

Why would hockey Canada or coaches need more responsibility? If these kids were out in the working world, their supervisor wouldn’t be responsible for them going out and gang raping someone while they’re out on the road, would they?

I could see if they worked for google and it was covered up, but how much responsibility does Google have for what its employees may or may not do outside of work?

Would yo I want your boss deep inside your business like that?

Are employees doing criminal things while at employer events? Is there evidence that other employees are also doing criminal things or have done so, leading to a culture of accepted behavior within the organization? When the organization/employer is actively attempting to cover things up, that indicates an issue to address with that entity - there is a problem with standards and practices if they're covering up for their employees misdeeds.

 

[GeoRox89]

So not sure whether a system with preemptory challenges is better or not.

Speaking as someone who has actually selected a jury before, the problem with pre-emptory challenges is you're not allowed to ask jurors a whole bunch of questions, so you're stuck making decisions on very superficial factors about how they look - are they young/old, man/woman, and yes skin colour.

That definitely doesn’t sound great. No idea if it’s everywhere in the US but not really being able to ask questions seems like a stark contrast to things like the massive questionnaire the prospective jurors had to answer in the OJ case.

In a case like the one this thread is about, I think it’s rather unfair to have to rely on the prospective jurors to willingly admit either they or someone close to them was a victim of SA or falsely accused and have a higher probability than normal of struggling to be impartial rather than being able to ask and assess their honesty

 

[Taluss]

You guys blaming the parents are ridiculous. You have no idea how these 5 were raised.

At 16 you know right from wrong. They decided to f*** up and do a something stupid. That's not on the parents. That's on the 5 players

 

[Number8]

None of the kids at this event were minors, and the only two who weren't of age to drink in Ontario were Robert Thomas and Formenton, but both were legally adults at the time. The entire team outside those 2 would be entering 3rd year University in Ontario, and the other 2 would be entering 2nd year.

I'd also add, look into how the USNTDP handled Reid Boucher. The guy had sex with his billet's 12 year old daughter, and all they did was move him to a different billet family. This would have been buried if the girl didn't later decide to press charges.

I'm almost certain that at least one of the players was turned away at the bar door for being a minor (maybe we're getting caught up in semantics - I mean not legal age to drink).

And the gold tournament reception hosted by Hockey Canada was widely reported as open bar.

Now Hockey Canada may have had someone at that bar carding the players, but I won't waste time stating my views on the likelihood of that.

As far as USNTDP goes???? Another disgusting group that puts the talent of players ahead of common decency. f*** them too.

Hockey Canada is by no means alone in the moral shortcomings department. That said, if you can find me a dumber group than Scott Smith and Hockey Canada I'd be interested.

Hockey Canada paid out just shy of 9M Canadian to settle TWENTY ONE cases of sexual assaults since 1989????

If in 2022 when called to testify in front of Canadian lawmakers you don't have a concrete program already in place to address an obvious problem, so you just stonewall? Scott Smith and Hockey Canada were not only arrogant but truly as thick as pig shit.

 

[Melrose Munch]

So you're saying when a player takes a leave for personal/mental issues it is up to the team to determine whether the source of that mental stress is worthy in the public eye?

Direct your ire at Dube, not the flames

Again people are mad at the flames, and maybe rightfully so since they release a prior statement, but Dube lied. That's the problem here. We have a pattern of it now, so what else is he lying about?

 

[Yukon Joe]

There are some toxic traits that permeate through minor hockey in Canada. As I am sure there are in other sports. 9/10 from my experience coaching in minor hockey and just general observations, the parents are often the root cause of these problems.

Hockey Canada most definitely has a role to play, but more importantly, the parents have a role to play in not raising little assholes who think they are going to the show and their shit doesn't stink.

The entitlement heaped upon some (not all) kids at the higher levels especially, is but one of the contributing factors to what many observe as a toxic hockey culture in Canada.

It is a bit of a struggle to try and raise a kid who plays hockey, yet who is not a "hockey kid". There definitely is a type.

 

[waitin425]

You guys blaming the parents are ridiculous. You have no idea how these 5 were raised.

At 16 you know right from wrong. They decided to f*** up and do a something stupid. That's not on the parents. That's on the 5 players

No one knows what role these parents had in how their kids grew up. Blaming them particularly is a bad look for sure, agreed.

But, a weekend spent at an Ontario AA or AAA hockey tournament is an eye opening experience. No shortage of nut job parents roaming the rink.

Not all of them, obviously, but the ones who are, are very easy to pick out.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I'd say many D1 schools have been known to put their heads in the sand just as bad as Hockey Canada when it comes to their football programs. Just look at Penn St. or Baylor.

Penn State - that was an arguably "head in the sand" moment, though it also clearly impacted only one sport (football) and the number of people involved was still fairly limited (even if it went all the way to the top).

Baylor? That wasn't "head in the sand." That was "we know this is going on, but winning is more important; do whatever it takes to keep these guys playing so we can keep winning and have a better shot at championships" and it went all the way up to the top and across multiple branches. It's much more analogous to what happened with Hockey Canada.

Also worth noting: after the NCAA decided to figuratively crucify Penn State football for what it did (one individual, one sport, arguably had zero impact toward on-the-field performance), it undertook incredibly mental gymnastics to decide it "could not conclude that Baylor violated NCAA rules when it failed to report allegations of and address sexual and interpersonal violence committed on its campus" even though those actions involved football (and eventually spanned multiple sports), included multiple individuals (including the head coach and senior administrative individuals) and very intentionally impacted on-the-field performance.