Five members from Canada’s 2018 world junior team (Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote and Formenton) told to surrender to police, facing sexual assault charges

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Golden_Jet

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Personally, I think the American jury selection system is better. I do see how it’s open to manipulation by both sides and who knows how often it’s actually a fair impartial jury and how often it’s just one side getting a favourable jury
What’s the difference in jury selection, ?

Canada has prosecutors and defence lawyers choosing the jurors together, they both have to agree, or they move on to the next person.

But this thread is about hockey. Posters had better wake up. And hockey fans had better stop pretending hockey is clean.
No one is arguing that it’s not clean lol, they’re just pointing out the others are worse.
 

Frank Drebin

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If the Flames had no idea WHILE EVERY other person in hockey knew Dube was involved? you gotta question how in touch they are with the hockey. Dube was one of the players that was highly speculated when the news broke--the only name I did not see was Foote-when his name was suggested--posters suggested his father would lay a bunch of woop ass on him
I'm confident Dube asked the flames for a leave of absence citing mental health issues. While they were probably very aware of the source of his mental anguish I think they treated it exactly how they would have if they were not aware.

The optics in hindsight look poor but I really don't fault the flames too much here.
 
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GeoRox89

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The 12 jurors are agreed to on both sides, not just one side.
Usually there are not unlimited peremptory challenges though which means one side has to strike for cause. Thats not necessarily both sides agreeing and can at times mean one side deciding not to strike an unfavourable juror because there are others that can be a bigger problem

(Apparently I have always heard that word differently than it’s spelled)
 
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Frank Drebin

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That’s a parents responsibility.

I don’t parent kids at work, hockey Canada isn’t these kids parents either
You are aware many of these kids leave home at 15 years old to live with billet families? The coaches and teammates become their parent figures.
 
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GeoRox89

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What’s the difference in jury selection, ?

Canada has prosecutors and defence lawyers choosing the jurors together, they both have to agree, or they move on to the next person.


No one is arguing that it’s not clean lol, they’re just pointing out the others are worse.
Pretty sure it was brought up earlier in this thread that the Canadian system changed because of outrage that the Colton Boushie case and now they don’t get peremptory challenges in Canada
 
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Melrose Munch

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Why would hockey Canada or coaches need more responsibility? If these kids were out in the working world, their supervisor wouldn’t be responsible for them going out and gang raping someone while they’re out on the road, would they?

I could see if they worked for google and it was covered up, but how much responsibility does Google have for what its employees may or may not do outside of work?

Would yo I want your boss deep inside your business like that?
I don't disagree with your point re: parents, but if a child is under your ward to learn hockey, then hockey coaches need to set the example of being good men. It's not just about protecting kids from abusers, it's teaching kids (especially boys) not to be abusers as well.
 
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Number8

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Why would hockey Canada or coaches need more responsibility? If these kids were out in the working world, their supervisor wouldn’t be responsible for them going out and gang raping someone while they’re out on the road, would they?

I could see if they worked for google and it was covered up, but how much responsibility does Google have for what its employees may or may not do outside of work?

Would yo I want your boss deep inside your business like that?
We're not talking about a traditional boss. How many times in your past did your "boss" facilitate trips with free drinks, hotel rooms, and golf tournaments as an 18 year old? And yes, some of these kids were minors. So is Team Canada not responsible for counseling under age kids not to drink at an event that they are providing an open bar? Or do they just get to say "hey I'm only their boss - up to them what they do"?

And while on the subject of facilitation. If Hockey Canada had a huge pool of money set aside to specifically settle sexual assault cases, a team of lawyers at hand for the same purpose, and had a clear history of other Juniors getting into sexual assault problems.... is it still cool for them to say, "hey I'm just your boss and you don't want me deep inside your business like that. You do you, brah!"

Come on man. If you are coaching and managing a bunch of juniors, responsibility comes with the package. If not then Team Canada should go away. Which for many, is a very appealing prospect right now.
 

Melrose Munch

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What’s the difference in jury selection, ?

Canada has prosecutors and defence lawyers choosing the jurors together, they both have to agree, or they move on to the next person.


No one is arguing that it’s not clean lol, they’re just pointing out the others are worse.
But what do others have to do with this? Why does some non-related incident in the NBA/NFL have to do with this case at this time? This is making a distraction.
 

archangel2

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Way to twist everything. Flames were told originally he needed leave for mental health reasons. 3 days later news broke that London police were charging him. You cant fault the Flames for not knowing he was going to be charged in the future. For all we know Dube actually has a mental health issue that he needs help with.

We all knew most of the name before that march of shame was announced. IF we knew and most of the hockey world knew the names why didnt the flames. The only name I did not see coming as Foote. Carter Hart, the sens kid and Mcleod were the most mentioned names. WIth Dube being in the top ten of players names.

So no--I am not twisting shit. We were given a two weeks heads up and then players started taking a leave of absence. Dube was not the first player to take a leave of absence.
 
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Melrose Munch

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The Flames should be bagged on but the fact is Dube is a liar. That's not on the Flames since they were lied to (just like we were), but people need to learn to ask questions and break the lack of transparency in hockey.
 

Golden_Jet

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Pretty sure it was brought up earlier in this thread that the Canadian system changed because of outrage that the Colton Boushie case and now they don’t get peremptory challenges in Canada
You didn’t answer the question again, why is the US jury selection better.
 

Frank Drebin

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We all knew most of the name before that march of shame was announced. IF we knew and most of the hockey world knew the names why didnt the flames. The only name I did not see coming as Foote. Carter Hart, the sens kid and Mcleod were the most mentioned names. WIth Dube being in the top ten of players names.

So no--I am not twisting shit. We were given a two weeks heads up and then players started taking a leave of absence. Dube was not the first player to take a leave of absence.
So you're saying when a player takes a leave for personal/mental issues it is up to the team to determine whether the source of that mental stress is worthy in the public eye?

Direct your ire at Dube, not the flames
 
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GeoRox89

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You didn’t answer the question again, why is the US jury selection better.
I do think being able to strike jurors is a better system than the one that has been discussed earlier in this thread that now unless a potential juror volunteers that they don’t think they can be impartial they’ll be selected
 

Strangle

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We're not talking about a traditional boss. How many times in your past did your "boss" facilitate trips with free drinks, hotel rooms, and golf tournaments as an 18 year old? And yes, some of these kids were minors. So is Team Canada not responsible for counseling under age kids not to drink at an event that they are providing an open bar? Or do they just get to say "hey I'm only their boss - up to them what they do"?

And while on the subject of facilitation. If Hockey Canada had a huge pool of money set aside to specifically settle sexual assault cases, a team of lawyers at hand for the same purpose, and had a clear history of other Juniors getting into sexual assault problems.... is it still cool for them to say, "hey I'm just your boss and you don't want me deep inside your business like that. You do you, brah!"

Come on man. If you are coaching and managing a bunch of juniors, responsibility comes with the package. If not then Team Canada should go away. Which for many, is a very appealing prospect right now.

Is that what happened? Maybe I don’t know the whole story.

Did hockey Canada rent out a bar for 17 and 18 year olds and invite a bunch of young women over and provide everyone with free alcohol?

Because yes, in that case that would change things.

I’m being serious, now I don’t know if that’s what happened based on your response

I finished highschool overseas with a private school and a class of around 20 kids. We were chaperoned sometimes, and other times we weren’t.

We were brought up to not gang bang anyone together while we weren’t though.

But we did go out drinking a lot. Funny how that works. The administration didn’t have to be our parents
 

Frank Drebin

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These guys were all adults when this occurred.
Beside the point.

These players left home when they were 15/16, their coaches/billets and teammates all took on a parental role during the 2-3 years before they were legal adults.

Those years matter.
 

thegazelle

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Such a disgusting move by the flames to say it was a mental health issue for Dube
True. Flames really are caught between a rock and a hard place, with little to no room to manoeuvre. If they claim they didn't know about the underlying root cause for the absence, then their lack of due diligence is concerning insofar as to who wears the team jersey, which by the way - the players are ultimately an ambassador for the team, which is why their conduct off the ice DOES matter.

If the Flames knew and were hoping to sweep it under the rug, that shows immense stupidity on their management's part, not to mention a complete lack of moral integrity.

I get it that we all live in a society where people are innocent until proven guilty. While that is true, it is also true that in this day and age, between DNA and scientific advancements, if the police have sufficient evidence to formally charge you with a crime like sexual assault (not just online allegations or internet rumours, but actual criminal charges), that doesn't bode well for the player charged. It will be hard to come back from this, if at all. Fans may tolerate a lot of antics, but everyone has a sister, wife, girlfriend, mother or other female in their life and something like this goes beyond what people may overlook.

The average person will never be charged with sexual assault because they don't put themselves in situations where this will happen. Even blaming youth is a bit of a red herring as most young people do not do this kind of stuff and know better / know the consequences.
 

Number8

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We all knew most of the name before that march of shame was announced. IF we knew and most of the hockey world knew the names why didnt the flames. The only name I did not see coming as Foote. Carter Hart, the sens kid and Mcleod were the most mentioned names. WIth Dube being in the top ten of players names.

So no--I am not twisting shit. We were given a two weeks heads up and then players started taking a leave of absence. Dube was not the first player to take a leave of absence.
Absolutely. This defense of Flames management/pr is pretty funny. About the only funny thing in this sad mess.

If we'd been allowed to speculate here on HF there are a lot of people who would have "speculated" Dube's name. Before Calgary issued their mental health statement. It just wasn't that hard. And that's without an NHL team leadership's much better grip on inside chatter than your average HF'er.:laugh:

Somebody with modestly firing brain cells in Calgary should have seen the potential connection and said "Hey guys, just to be safe, hold up on the mental health stuff. Just say personal reasons and leave it at that for now."
 

Frank Drebin

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Yes. I’m aware. I have lived in southern Ontario my whole life
Are you aware that a 15 or 16 year old is not a legal adult, and whatever adults in his or her life during the years till they are 18 essentially serve as role models/parents?
 
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