Five members from Canada’s 2018 world junior team (Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote and Formenton) told to surrender to police, facing sexual assault charges

[Danarqhy]

There were 2 names that had a lot of smoke around them and they weren’t one of the 5 players. One of those 2 had a strange career arc so far. Wonder if they are witnesses of some sort

Wondering the same. The identity of the Pizza Boy at least is heavily rumored and it appears that he already said he would help with the investigation.

 

[roon]

It's a system that is inherently susceptible to manipulation, as you're literally stating and yet "disagreeing" at the same time.

If by manipulation you mean removing those from a jury that cannot be impartial - sure.

 

[Number8]

Honestly the amount of money Hockey Canada takes in they should actually be the ones helping to train these kids for all the off ice issues that may come up.

It's not just to prevent sexual assault cases like this one, but how many players have other issues that they aren't prepared for? Stress, money, depression, life after the game, substance abuse etc...

Always hear about how these guys weren't properly trained in one aspect or another when the bad happens, yet it would seem an organization like hockey canada could start implementing something especially when these kids start hitting these higher level National team tournaments.

Absolutely. Being a celebrity carries a sometimes heavy load, I'm sure. All of these kids should be educated on the things you lay out -- not just counseling them not to be sexual predators.

If I lived in Canada and had paid a registration fee for my kid to play in any League - I'd be talking with a many people as possible to try to pull together a class action suit against Hockey Canada for using part of my money to be complicit in this.

And yes, Hockey Canada is implicit. This 2018 pile of shit is just the tip of the iceberg. 2003 is a stinking fetid mess as well and HC has known about that for years. Gary Bettman might have a PR problem on his hands as well. That list from 2003 contains a lot of ex NHL'ers. Gary better pray none were involved in that disgrace.

Efforts to stuff this all in a hidden box are over -- I certainly hope.

 

[I am toxic]

There was a Globe & Mail article discussing how the interview Danielle Rideout did with the victim had different questions and answers than what the police had probed.

Also, the victim went to police first, tried to rescind her claim, then rescinded her previous rescindment, so I think the police felt they were in a "he said, she said" type of scenario and didn't pursue charges. This doesn't mean the police didn't think something uncouth had occurred, it just means that there wasn't enough in the claim to warrant resources for a criminal investigation.

This was also at the beginning of the MeToo uptick, so I'm guessing police sensitivity and training was lagging a few years.

Where is this reported? Please link to it.

I thought the mother of EM went to the police first, not EM herself.

And this is the first I have heard of any kind of rescindment. Where is the actual news report?

 

[GeoRox89]

If by manipulation you mean removing those from a jury that cannot be impartial - sure.

Guessing they mean the concept of jury consultants and the possibility of using challenges so that rather than creating an impartial jury they’re used to find the prospective jurors that are believed to be most amenable to their arguments not due to impartiality but expected unconscious biases determined from background research

 

[Danarqhy]

Absolutely. Being a celebrity carries a sometimes heavy load, I'm sure. All of these kids should be educated on the things you lay out -- not just counseling them not to be sexual predators.

If I lived in Canada and had paid a registration fee for my kid to play in any League - I'd be talking with a many people as possible to try to pull together a class action suit against Hockey Canada for using part of my money to be complicit in this.

And yes, Hockey Canada is implicit. This 2018 pile of shit is just the tip of the iceberg. 2003 is a stinking fetid mess as well and HC has known about that for years. Gary Bettman might have a PR problem on his hands as well. That list from 2003 contains a lot of ex NHL'ers. Gary better pray none were involved in that disgrace.

Efforts to stuff this all in a hidden box are over -- I certainly hope.

Already confirmed that it includes ex-NHLers by an ex-player who saw the video but doesn't want to be named.

 

[Strangle]

Tough to say. Should everyone from that team just have been blackballed? There have been quite a few players names thrown out over the past year and it seems some of those names for the time being were wrong.

Already reports that players were told to lie to their teams, so we really have no idea who knew what.

I’m pretty sure the Blackhawks wouldn’t have wanted to draft or sign any of these guys

But I think it speaks to how prevalent it is and how accepted it is that teams thought the players were free and clear and it didn’t effect teams decisions

Absolutely. Being a celebrity carries a sometimes heavy load, I'm sure. All of these kids should be educated on the things you lay out -- not just counseling them not to be sexual predators.

If I lived in Canada and had paid a registration fee for my kid to play in any League - I'd be talking with a many people as possible to try to pull together a class action suit against Hockey Canada for using part of my money to be complicit in this.

And yes, Hockey Canada is implicit. This 2018 pile of shit is just the tip of the iceberg. 2003 is a stinking fetid mess as well and HC has known about that for years. Gary Bettman might have a PR problem on his hands as well. That list from 2003 contains a lot of ex NHL'ers. Gary better pray none were involved in that disgrace.

Efforts to stuff this all in a hidden box are over -- I certainly hope.

This teachable moment sounds like something that should come from a father

 

[93LEAFS]

Took exactly what i was going to say

There should be an extensive resource network established for the kids away from home - mandatory classes and counselors etc that can only add to education and ethics - however the whole thing looks

Or

Actually pay to have families abilities to visit 2,3,4 whatever times a season. Biy a f***en house in each city with a team and time share it

Most of these kids come from upper-middle class or wealthier families, and the parents are regularly at CHL games. May happen less often in the WHL with larger distances, but I'm sure parents often visit.

Let's also add. McLeod lived with his parents or close to his parents the entire time he played for the Steelheads. Formenton when he played for the Knight's parents lived 2 hours away (and like most parents on the Knights who are GTA based were likely regular visitors).

 

[archangel2]

If the Flames had no idea WHILE EVERY other person in hockey knew Dube was involved? you gotta question how in touch they are with the hockey. Dube was one of the players that was highly speculated when the news broke--the only name I did not see was Foote-when his name was suggested--posters suggested his father would lay a bunch of woop ass on him

 

[Melrose Munch]

I believe people are certainly biased towards sports that they enjoy and support and want to think the best of them, however if we're looking at a purely objective view I don't know how you can say with a straight face that hockey is very bad at all when it comes to the problems it has.

I think at the lower levels of hockey there seems to be more issues, but once players get to the NHL it definitely looks like there are very few players who are truly bad enough to commit serious crimes. I mean outside of this case where the players involved weren't yet in the NHL, how many NHL players do you remember committing serious crime or violence over the years where they ended up getting charged/arrested/going to jail? Extremely few.

On the otherhand look at the list of NFL players who have been involved in both minor and major crimes in just the past few years:

NFL player arrests database: Records since 2000 | USA TODAY Databases | USA TODAY NETWORK

These are arrests, charges and citations of NFL players for crimes more serious than common traffic violations. Almost all of the players belonged to an NFL roster at the time of the incident. In rare cases, a free agent is included only if that player later signs with an NFL team. The data...

databases.usatoday.com

That's a pretty crazy large list of players getting in trouble don't you think? Can you imagine the amount of outrage if we saw a list this large for NHL players getting in trouble? It would be insane and yet without looking it up I didn't know that THIS many NFL players have been getting into trouble because its so rarely talked about in the media anywhere. Heck I've seen 1000x more coverage about Taylor Swift going to KC games than I've ever heard of any NFL players getting into trouble this year.

I'm not saying hockey or the NHL doesn't have its problems, but compared to other leagues its doing pretty well especially if we're talking about players who reach the NHL and how relatively little serious trouble they get into. I think this is a case where the fact that something happens so rarely, it will undoubtedly get more attention when something serious does happen.

It would be like you hearing about a shooting in a US city and thinking 'Here we go again, so what else is new?' compared to hearing about a shooting in Tokyo and thinking 'Wow! That's crazy!' because such incidents are so rare in Japan. I think the same applies to the NHL where incidents are so rare that when something major does happen some people go overboard with the criticism and believing these incidents are a regular occurrence among hockey players rather than looking at the facts and realize that these incidents are pretty uncommon especially among NHL players.

You're trying to run interference by bringing up NFL cases that are old. I asked you about management issues with coverups in this league. And these allegations constitute a violent crime, and there has been only one other cases like it (Derrick Rose, you can look it up). Focus on the story at hand, this is about hockey culture.

Most of this stuff is learned from teammates and coaches when the boys are often already away from home living with billet families.

Which may be an issue in itself. Kid leaves home at 15 , misses out on many necessary parent son talks because they weren't age appropriate when the kid was still at home.

Again, if this is the case then junior hockey needs an overhaul.

 

[Number8]

This teachable moment sounds like something that should come from a father

Agree 100%. But Hockey Canada has responsibility too.

Many times in my life I have been on receiving end of teaching moments from more than one source. Sometimes repetition in the case of important is a good thing -- and regardless of how this case plays out I think we can all agree that these five (at least) are by no means the brightest bulbs in the chandelier. Repetition is clearly needed in these Mensa candidates.

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

Most of these kids come from upper-middle class or wealthier families, and the parents are regularly at CHL games. May happen less often in the WHL with larger distances, but I'm sure parents often visit.

Let's also add. McLeod lived with his parents or close to his parents the entire time he played for the Steelheads. Formenton when he played for the Knight's parents lived 2 hours away (and like most parents on the Knights who are GTA based were likely regular visitors).

Ya, unfortunately there’s often just a bit of a disgusting culture formed when you get 25 largely affluent boys/young “men” in a room. Saw it on some of my own teams. With conscious effort an organization can maybe steer ‘em a bit better, but that’s not even close to important, hockey is it.

And in no way am I saying this seeming crime is on any organization, or that these alleged monsters was “just kids” or somethin. I’m just sharing the culture I’m aware of, because I think it helps explain some of how 5 guys could think this was ok.

 

[roon]

Guessing they mean the concept of jury consultants and the possibility of using challenges so that rather than creating an impartial jury they’re used to find the prospective jurors that are believed to be most amenable to their arguments not due to impartiality but expected unconscious biases determined from background research

Well - both sides get to do it, logic being that you hope to arrive at a Jury that will be fair and open minded.

A sexual assault defendant looking at 12 random Toronto/Ontario residents? Good luck.

 

[GhostfaceWu]

That's hardly a "new wave". As far back as human history goes, privilege as a conduit to bad behavior is right there. Claiming otherwise is nothing but "back in my day, things were better" revisionism.

Only difference between now and the past is there's even less excuse for it in a world of mass communication and information.

You're gonna sit there and tell me the amount of rope kids get now days to do dumb shit with no consequences from the parents is remotely at the level it was 15 years ago? I literally seen a women let her 9 year old do a floor attack at the exit of a self checkout at Walmart the other day screaming his head off going limp and the mother tried the oh hunny we don't do this you need to get up friend routine to no avail before I left. You can't even scream at your kids for doing asshole shit like this in public because people will film and put you on the internet for doing what a parent should do.

 

[Golden_Jet]

I wonder if goes to trial, if it will be one big case with all 5, or 5 separate trials,

With the backlog, this is going to take a long time to resolve, longer if 5 separate, and harder on E.M.

 

[Frank Drebin]

IDK if this has been stated in here yet but gentle reminder to the men on the website:
1) No means no
2) if you gotta get her drunk to get consent, then you're wrong
3) roofies are bad, if you use them you're a POS
4) get a solid verbal consent (maybe even written if you have money) before doing anything.
5) If you are in a room with 5 of your buddies and there's a naked (or clothed) girl passed out there, be the voice of reason and say "gentlemen this is not the way". Help her out and find her friends.
6) If you see a girl passed out, that is not an invitation to stick your junk in her. Get her some water and find her friends.
7) If she's drunk/high and you aren't already friendly with her in a more than friends way... probably should avoid the banging.

Always ask yourself "is this juice worth the squeeze?"

thanks

 

[Melrose Munch]

I’m pretty sure the Blackhawks wouldn’t have wanted to draft or sign any of these guys

But I think it speaks to how prevalent it is and how accepted it is that teams thought the players were free and clear and it didn’t effect teams decisions



This teachable moment sounds like something that should come from a father

All the male role models failed here. The fathers, coaches, M.M., etc. Sad.

 

[GeoRox89]

Well - both sides get to do it, logic being that you hope to arrive at a Jury that will be fair and open minded.

A sexual assault defendant looking at 12 random Toronto/Ontario residents? Good luck.

Personally, I think the American jury selection system is better. I do see how it’s open to manipulation by both sides and who knows how often it’s actually a fair impartial jury and how often it’s just one side getting a favourable jury

 

[Strangle]

Agree 100%. But Hockey Canada has responsibility too.

Many times in my life I have been on receiving end of teaching moments from more than one source. Sometimes repetition in the case of important is a good thing -- and regardless of how this case plays out I think we can all agree that these five (at least) are by no means the brightest bulbs in the chandelier. Repetition is clearly needed in these Mensa candidates.

Why would hockey Canada or coaches need more responsibility? If these kids were out in the working world, their supervisor wouldn’t be responsible for them going out and gang raping someone while they’re out on the road, would they?

I could see if they worked for google and it was covered up, but how much responsibility does Google have for what its employees may or may not do outside of work?

Would yo I want your boss deep inside your business like that?

 

[Frank Drebin]

You're trying to run interference by bringing up NFL cases that are old. I asked you about management issues with coverups in this league. And these allegations constitute a violent crime, and there has been only one other cases like it (Derrick Rose, you can look it up). Focus on the story at hand, this is about hockey culture.


Again, if this is the case then junior hockey needs an overhaul.

Sure does. I don't think blaming the parents is fair though. Unless it's criticizing their decision to send their child to live with and be raised by strangers in order to live out their (and your) dreams. Which is really another conversation

 

[Golden_Jet]

Guessing they mean the concept of jury consultants and the possibility of using challenges so that rather than creating an impartial jury they’re used to find the prospective jurors that are believed to be most amenable to their arguments not due to impartiality but expected unconscious biases determined from background research

The 12 jurors are agreed to on both sides, not just one side.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Why would hockey Canada or coaches need more responsibility? If these kids were out in the working world, their supervisor wouldn’t be responsible for them going out and gang raping someone while they’re out on the road, would they?

I could see if they worked for google and it was covered up, but how much responsibility does Google have for what its employees may or may not do outside of work?

Would yo I want your boss deep inside your business like that?

Kids vs adults?

 

[Golden_Jet]

You're trying to run interference by bringing up NFL cases that are old. I asked you about management issues with coverups in this league. And these allegations constitute a violent crime, and there has been only one other cases like it (Derrick Rose, you can look it up). Focus on the story at hand, this is about hockey culture.


Again, if this is the case then junior hockey needs an overhaul.

NFL and NBA are sadly worse.

 

[Zirakzigil]

If the Flames had no idea WHILE EVERY other person in hockey knew Dube was involved? you gotta question how in touch they are with the hockey. Dube was one of the players that was highly speculated when the news broke--the only name I did not see was Foote-when his name was suggested--posters suggested his father would lay a bunch of woop ass on him

Way to twist everything. Flames were told originally he needed leave for mental health reasons. 3 days later news broke that London police were charging him. You cant fault the Flames for not knowing he was going to be charged in the future. For all we know Dube actually has a mental health issue that he needs help with.

 

[andora]

Most of these kids come from upper-middle class or wealthier families, and the parents are regularly at CHL games. May happen less often in the WHL with larger distances, but I'm sure parents often visit.

Let's also add. McLeod lived with his parents or close to his parents the entire time he played for the Steelheads. Formenton when he played for the Knight's parents lived 2 hours away (and like most parents on the Knights who are GTA based were likely regular visitors).

Ok?